Daily Mail Story

[Old No7. 792]

If not for Bears Den please move. Article on the Mail Online cut and paste but not the photos.

SHAMEFUL: Fury over UK soldiers investigated after performing Nazi-style salute in Helmand

MPs' anger that gesture could be dismissed as 'Loyalist tribute'

Picture believed to have been taken at an Army base in Helmand Province

It shows serving British soldiers two of which are giving Nazi-style salutes

They are standing in front of a Union Flag and the flag of Northern Ireland,

'Invicta Loyal' is the name of a Glasgow Rangers supporters' club in Kent

MoD spokesman says the two soldiers seen saluting 'have been spoken to'

By MARK NICOL, NICK CRAVEN and ANDY BEAVEN

PUBLISHED: 22:02, 26 October 2013 | UPDATED: 23:32, 26 October 2013

In an image which will cause widespread outrage, two serving British soldiers appear to give Nazi-style salutes while standing to attention in front of the Union Flag.

Apparently taken at an Army base in Helmand Province, Afghanistan, the photograph will provoke international disgust as Remembrance Day approaches.

Last night the Ministry of Defence told The Mail on Sunday that both soldiers have been investigated by Army chiefs. A spokesman said: ‘The two people doing the salute in the photo have been spoken to.

Shocking: These two soldiers making Nazi-style salutes in front of the Union Flag have been investigated by Army chiefs

'This sort of behaviour has no place in the Armed Forces. We take such matters seriously.’

MPs and ex-military leaders condemned the troops’ behaviour.

John Mann, chairman of the Commons’ All Party Group Against Anti-Semitism said: ‘This is an insult to the memory of those who gave their lives to stop the Nazis.

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‘These idiots need to be re-educated and they should be sent to visit Auschwitz and see what happened there and witness the evil which so many people fought to stop.’

‘So many thousands of people died for this country and the last thing we want is their memory being tarnished by a couple of idiots in uniform.

As Remembrance Sunday approaches, the MoD should send these guys around the country to clean war memorials.’

The Ministry of Defence yesterday confirmed that the men in the photograph were genuine soldiers.

The photograph also shows the flag of Northern Ireland, while the Union Flag is inscribed with ‘Invicta Loyal’ – the name of a Glasgow Rangers supporters’ club, based in Kent.

Insult: In another picture published online the soldiers hold guns but their faces are obscured. 'Invicta Loyal' is the name of a Glasgow Rangers supporters' club in Kent

There is a suggestion that the gesture may be a ‘Red Hand of Ulster’ salute, a gesture once used by Rangers football fans to show allegiance with Northern Irish Loyalists.

But Mr Mann, the MP for Bassetlaw, added: ‘Whether they call it a “Red Hand salute” or whatever makes absolutely no difference – this is one of the most offensive gestures they could make in the modern world.’

Jeffrey Donaldson MP of the Democratic Unionist Party said: ‘Anyone who would imitate a Nazi salute in front of the Union Flag or wearing the uniform dishonours these flags and the British Army.

‘Any symbolism associated with fascism has no place in the Unionist tradition or any regiment of the British Army.

'We do not know to which regiment these soldiers belong but the Royal Irish Regiment, with which I am associated, has a proud record of fighting fascism.’

Fellow Democratic Unionist MP Sammy Wilson added: ‘This is not a salute made by marching bands [in Northern Ireland]. It is not clear what the context is but I do not think it can be explained away as some type of Red Hand of Ulster salute.’

The Ministry of Defence said the men had been subjected to ‘administrative action’ – a process of investigation with possible punishment if the personnel are found to have breached Army regulations.

Soldiers are allowed to belong to political parties, but are banned from political marches and demonstrations, and are expected to abide by Army values.

Outrage: John Mann (left), chairman of the Commons' All Party Group Against Anti-Semitism and Jeffrey Donaldson MP (right) of the Democratic Unionist Party are among those to voice their disgust

In another photograph published elsewhere on the internet, a group of soldiers are seen bedecked in the sashes and other regalia of the Orange Order.

Many of the pages on the Invicta Loyal website display open sectarian hatred, while it also includes loyalist songs such as The Billy Boys – now banned at Rangers’ ground, Ibrox – which includes the lines: ‘We’re up to our knees in Fenian Blood /Surrender or you’ll die. ‘

The website also has photographs from a ‘social’ event held by Invicta Loyal members where a gents’ toilet displayed a notice inviting supporters to ‘P*** on a Papist’ as pictures of the Pope, Gerry Adams and IRA hunger striker Bobby Sands were stuck to the urinal.

Last month soldiers at a Rangers match as part of Armed Forces Day were accused of joining in sectarian singing. Troops who had been parading on the Ibrox pitch were seen to break ranks, and one soldier was allegedly photographed with a ‘Keep Ulster Protestant’ scarf.

The incident was reported to the police and a file was also sent to Army chiefs.

THE SUSPECT RED HAND DEFENCE

Rangers fans were investigated by UEFA in 2007 when some made straight-armed salutes during a match against an Israeli team in Tel Aviv.

European football’s governing body was satisfied by Rangers’ explanation that the fans were making ‘Red Hand of Ulster salutes’ but the club warned fans not to repeat the gesture.

Some experts, however, dismiss the idea that such a tradition exists.

Historian Ian S Wood, who has studied Ulster Loyalism for decades, said: ‘I’ve never seen or heard of anything called a red hand salute.’

An MoD statement on the matter said at the time: ‘Any personnel found to have fallen short of the Armed Forces’ values and standards will be dealt with by the chain of command and, if necessary, by the police.’

So far there has been no announcement of disciplinary action against any of the troops and no charges brought by police.

John McMillan, former general secretary of the Rangers Supporters Association last night warned against one-arm salutes.

He said: ‘It is something that fans should really avoid doing as it can be misinterpreted as a Nazi symbol and offend people. I do not think it is something we should be associated with and I do not think the club would welcome it.

‘I am quite sure it was not meant to be a Nazi salute. I have not seen fans making the Red Hand of Ulster salute myself, but I would advise against anyone doing it because of how it could be viewed by others.’

Drew Roberton of the Rangers Supporters Association’s agreed that such salutes were ‘ill-advised’.

He said: ‘In this day and age people must be mindful of the gestures they make. Regardless of what their own opinion is, it doesn’t necessarily fit with the wider view.

‘The Red Hand of Ulster salute is ill-advised. People have compared it to the Nazi salute and it could be misinterpreted as such – it looks very similar – so I would ask people to desist from doing it.

‘I am 100 per cent certain that the salute performed by these soldiers is not in any way showing support for the Nazis – they are doing a Red Hand of Ulster salute. I am not surprised that they have done it but I would ask them to refrain from it.’

But not everyone considered the soldiers’ transgression so seriously.

Belfast-born Iraq War commander Colonel Tim Collins, who led the 1st Battalion, the Royal Irish Regiment, said: ‘These soldiers are behaving inappropriately in uniform but I wouldn’t get too worried about soldiers behaving playfully.

‘If this is offensive then so is the First XV Rugby team not wearing regimental ties. This is beyond minor, it is a grain of sand and I do not think for a second that these soldiers should be removed from the British Army. You’d end someone’s career for having a laugh? How do people manage to be offended by so little?’

A spokesman for the Royal British Legion, which launched its annual Poppy Appeal last week, said they could not comment on the incident as it was subject to Army discipline.’

COMMENT: I’m disgusted by this slur on memory of soldiers who died fighting the Nazis

By COL RICHARD KEMP (EX-COMMANDER UK FORCES AFGHANISTAN)

Condemnation: Col Richard Kemp

I took just one glance at this photograph today – and felt utterly sickened. Whatever the reasons behind it, it looks awful and I condemn the behaviour of the soldiers involved.

All soldiers should know it’s abhorrent and offensive and even if done in jest will bring the British Army into disrepute.

I believe this is not the way most soldiers think and that this would be an isolated incident.

Clearly, British soldiers serving in Afghanistan face terrible dangers and even death – and men find relief from the stress of fighting on the frontline in many ways.

But even if these men were doing just that, they have overstepped the mark.

Whenever they are wearing the uniform, they have a duty to remember how they must behave for they represent their colleagues, their regiment and the nation itself to the world.

Most of all they represent those who have fallen in battle in the past. The men in these photographs have stained with shame the honourable memory of those who came before them.

Their gesture is one that can never be defended or tolerated. Perhaps it wasn’t meant as a Nazi salute – it has been suggested it has some connection with Loyalists in Northern Ireland – but their foolishness has left the image open to the worst interpretation.

These young men would do well to remember that tens of thousands of their forebears died fighting the Nazis in the Second World War.

That the picture has emerged so close to Remembrance Sunday is also regrettable as our thoughts turn to acknowledging the ultimate sacrifice of so many soldiers.

Sometimes soldiers do stupid things, it is in their nature, and in that regard they are the same as the rest of us.

All the same, for a soldier to make or pretend to make what might seem to be a Nazi salute in private, or in front of a small group of his colleagues, makes me feel very uneasy. The picture first emerged on the internet and so inevitably will be seen around the world – arousing fury everywhere.

'These men and the Army must learn from this'

One of the problems faced by military commanders today, with regard to the conduct of their men, is the proliferation of camera phones.

Practically all their soldiers will possess these devices, and even though these are not supposed to be used or carried in Afghanistan, these rules are sometimes broken.

The worst images that can flash back from the frontline are of soldiers’ bodies but that is not to belittle what is going on here. There are those who would call for the soldiers’ immediate dismissal but despite my disgust at their behaviour, as a former commander I feel that they should be shown leniency.

What the soldiers did was stupid but not a heinous crime. However, they and the Army as a whole must learn from this appalling episode. This photo raises issues in the area of political neutrality. This neutrality is essential.

Where British troops serve they must be seen to be impartial – and never to sway towards any political grouping on the Left or the Right or towards any cause such as Irish Nationalism or extremist Loyalism.

The image appears as we face potential prosecutions for British soldiers from Bloody Sunday – and amid reports of alleged collusion between the security services in Northern Ireland and Loyalist terrorist groups.

These pictures will do nothing to quell these fears.

[Rapid6 77]

Boo hoo

[PaulReid 184]

This makes the news.

Jesus!

People who say they are sickened are a disgrace.

Trying to make this something it's not.

Saying its a nazi salute it childish and sad

[8Ace 49]

Tim Collins calls it right.

[BLUEDIGNITY 33,647]

Belfast-born Iraq War commander Colonel Tim Collins, who led the 1st Battalion, the Royal Irish Regiment, said: ‘These soldiers are behaving inappropriately in uniform but I wouldn’t get too worried about soldiers behaving playfully.

‘If this is offensive then so is the First XV Rugby team not wearing regimental ties. This is beyond minor, it is a grain of sand and I do not think for a second that these soldiers should be removed from the British Army. You’d end someone’s career for having a laugh? How do people manage to be offended by so little?’

Hear Hear, re-election for this Man !

[ForeverBlue_Since91 2,895]

Is it more sickening than not supporting the troops? Is it more sicking than protesting about wearing poppys?

The daily mail is just a sickening pile of shite.

I have never heard anyone have a good thing to say about that paper.

[minstral 5,375]

They are old photos.

[nachothelegend 1,932]

Everyone knows it's a Red Hand of Ulster salute.

The MOD now have a discriminate policy of accepting Applications from prospective employees from particularly within the Catholic

community .

That could be your problem.

I would say if you want to punnish them that badly bring them home.Go on.

Soon be no cunt left in Helmond, the way these offended Arseholes are going.

[Terry Hurlock Loyal 12,133]

If they stood with their arms folded then there would have been no problem. Seems like another load of nonsense on a slow news day for that horrible rag.

[topgoalie 637]

This is getting beyond a joke now,to keep highlighting our Forces in any misdemeanour smacks of a concerted attack by the always offended,and we know the usual culprits...........

[trueblue68 2,497]

I feel ethnically oppressed after reading this article.

From the universal act of human rights

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference.

[ZZed 4,510]

Historian Ian S Wood, who has studied Ulster Loyalism for decades, said: ‘I’ve never seen or heard of anything called a red hand salute.

Historian who does'nt know history

[Bad Robot 21,148]

I think this prick needs a new occupation as he clearly hasn't got a clue in his current one.

A historian who has studied loyalism, he is having a laugh:

Historian Ian S Wood, who has studied Ulster Loyalism for decades, said: ‘I’ve never seen or heard of anything called a red hand salute.’

[Bad Robot 21,148]

Historian Ian S Wood, who has studied Ulster Loyalism for decades, said: ‘I’ve never seen or heard of anything called a red hand salute.

Historian who does'nt know history

you beat me too it lol

[nachothelegend 1,932]

I think this prick needs a new occupation as he clearly hasn't got a clue in his current one.

A historian who has studied loyalism, he is having a laugh:

Historian Ian S Wood, who has studied Ulster Loyalism for decades, said: ‘I’ve never seen or heard of anything called a red hand salute.’

Without doubt a pro Nationalist.

[harry handsome 629]

Is it not more sickening that senior politicians sang songs in parliament supporting the IRA, or was that just the craic. Sorry the red hand salute may be mistaken as the nazi salute but Reid and Galloway admitting they sang the songs cannot be mistaken.

[mabawsa 888]

3.5 years ago FFS! Someone is doing their damnedest to 'criminalise' the connection of the Armed Forces and RFC. Just watched Sky Press Review and the lady (Christina Patterson) on it spoke sense and said it was not worthy of front page news , especially as it had been dealt with 3.5 years ago.

[IbroxBurnzy 484]

Yet again another story wheeled out to do damage but we're led to believe there's no one against us!!

Aye right.

[Band of Brothers 10,303]

So what about the soldier killed prior to this tour in Ayrshire being stabbed to death? What about the soldier killed with 1 punch in a Darlington night club prior to this tour by a gypsy from behind with no warning.

How about the lads who died during that tour as was the biggest losses of any tour during Afghanistan in history. Herrick12 where we stood toe to toe with the enemy and paid highly.

Daily mail should be ashamed for pulling such a wank story out before rememberance day. Disgrace!

RIP fallen brothers!

[The Hammer 11 2,575]

Those pictures are ancient theyve went looking for a story to try and damage either the reputation of the armed forces or rangers for some farcical reason those pics have been able to be viewed for god knows how long and it's only now coming to there attention ,i smell shite

[Teamgers 1,214]

Big fucking deal, why post this shite?

[bingboyBLUE 72]

Ffs.

Slow news day.

And its The Daily Mail ffs

Must be giving the blacks, gays, jews, arabs, immigrants, E.U and poor the day off.

Fucking sickening state of affairs. It is honestly a worrying time in our country.

Support our troops regardless of what fukn team they support.

A sure sign that Galloway and like minded traitors are running the show.

Shameful.

[Drumloyal 14,966]

So.....I assume the Roman empire (who were around 1800-2500 years before the Nazis) were also fascists? They had fists held at arms length from the chest as a salute. No....wait, how could I be mistaken.... that can't be tied to Rangers fans so it can't possibly be relevant. Fuck this country.

[Terry Hurlock Loyal 12,133]

So.....I assume the Roman empire (who were around 1800-2500 years before the Nazis) were also fascists? They had fists held at arms length from the chest as a salute. No....wait, how could I be mistaken.... that can't be tied to Rangers fans so it can't possibly be relevant. Fuck this country.

Relax!! It is not worth getting worked up about! Another Sunday rag spouting pish, in a decade these papers and its journalists won't exist. We know it, and so do they as they cling on to a dying breed of customer.

[Ben10 2,271]

Everyone knows it's a Red Hand of Ulster salute.

Anyone who does a straight arm salute is a fucking waste of space as far as I'm concerned