A potential stumbling block in the not so distant future

[PromDeAnglais 5,470]

Rewind a good few years, fans were growing weary of defensive tactics against teams deemed not much stronger than ours, or even weaker. 4-5-1 in Europe was our way of saying give us all you've got, then we'll counter attack you - with some degree of success but in many instances it backfired against opposition who could be labelled as weaker than us at that point in time. 

Fast forward to the more recent past. In comes a manager like a breathe of fresh air: No long balls, ball on the ground, even the keeper and centre backs getting put through rigorous passing exercises. Attacking with flair, slick passing and in numbers. The initial result? Brilliant, everyone is entertained... the pundits and fans alike are lapping up the change in style to fast-tempo, offensive minded football with the majority of results going in favour.

Am I talking about Rangers?

No, my second team Everton.

The transformation under Moyes to Martinez has been incredible on the eye of every Everton fan, from extremely defensive physical teams with the aim of disrupting the opposition as opposed to Martinez's free flowing attacking football that simply aims to score more goals than the opposition. 

One major criticism of Martinez (this season mainly) has been Evertons inability to see out a game, the attacking football is still there for all to see, but now fans are growing more and more frustrated with the teams poor defending as Martinez refuses to change to a "Plan B" to defend a lead. As recently as today pundits and fans are saying that if Martinez had a fraction of Moyes defensive tactical know-how, Everton would be on the cusp of Champions League football next season, instead they find themselves closer to relegation.

This has got me thinking, there are a few similarities between the transition in tactics from a Rangers perspective (if you forget about Ally, or at least try), and compare Walter to Warburton.

Obviously, Warburton must be praised for the work he has done thus far, and I'm in no way underlying his work, but I have a slight hesitation about how we got about our return to football in Europe.

Make no mistake, the old firm has over the years punched well above their weight in Europe (not so much recently), but the success of Scottish teams in Europe has always been built on defence rather than offense.

What's your thoughts then? Would you like to see us try the same formation/tactics in Europe as we play now? Or would a more conservative approach from Warburton be required for the European stage?

Do we need a plan B in general? i.e. Old firm games and tougher away days?

Regardless, it's certainly not the worst problem to have and I cannot wait for the day that I hear Champions League anthem ringing around Ibrox again...  

[KeyserSoze 14,531]

Fuck "second" teams

 

[PromDeAnglais 5,470]

1 minute ago, KeyserSoze said:

Fuck "second" teams

 

Slightly derailing the topic but if one parent is from Govan and the other is from Kirkdale you tend to get brought up looking out for both teams

[graeme_4 34,460]

Fair points.

I'd take a judgement once Warbs gets an opportunity to show it in Europe. I've faith in the man. 

Martinez has always been naive at the back. Not sure Warbs and Weir are. Recently there's been a big improvement in the fullbacks decision making (when to push forward, when to not), and we're leaking less goals when caught on the break IMO. 

[BEE 4,880]

Stopped reading when I saw Everton, why the fuck would you support a team that has a song about throwing Rangers fans in the Mersey?

[BigAmo'sThighs 848]

No, we do not need a plan B. And while I'm not Martinez biggest fan, he's got a much harder job than Moyes did to get to that top 4 spot.

 

3 to 4 years ago, Chelsea, Man U, City and Arsenal were favourites, then you had Everton, Spurs and Liverpool trying to sneak into 4th or more likely, top 5 or 6.

 

Now, Chelsea's current position aside, you've not only got those teams mentioned above, but they've been added to with the likes of Leicester, West Ham, Stoke, Saints (more solast year) all being very capable of finishing top 4,5,6.

 

That's 10 teams all trying to get into the top 5 or 6 places, people will miss out. Stones, Lukaku, Baines, Barkely, Delafeou (sp) etc, all very talented players that wouldn't suit a tight, hard working, nitty gritty, tough tackling team set up.

 

Luckily from our point of view, we've only got Celtic to beat, and that's a walk in the park with that Norweigan weirdo in charge, Aberdeen and hearts are a good team, plenty of tough games ahead, but we're not competing with Spurs, Liverpool etc. No plan A was the issue in the past, never mind a plan B. I think we'll take the league by storm next season, we'll certainly be challenging and pushing all the way IMHO

 

 

[ritchieshearercaldow 22,137]

We will only know how good Mr Warburtons tatics are when we are competing regularly in the top division 

Classy attractive football works in this division but sometimes it needs to be played ugly IMO

[KeyserSoze 14,531]

2 minutes ago, PromDeAnglais said:

Slightly derailing the topic but if one parent is from Govan and the other is from Kirkdale you tend to get brought up looking out for both teams

my Dad was from Bootle - he always said "fuck second teams"

 

anyways, back on topic. You make some good points  and the frustrating thing for me in the past was the way we changed our play for europe. I think it takes a while for a formation to bed in and players become comfy with it - why then change all that while playing in europe! I never understood it, surely it is better to keep what you know? I am therefore certain MW will keep the same ethos (with some tinkering) whilst we play in europe.

Walter Smith adjusted our team to play in europe generally - and not what the opposition were going to do. I think MW may do the latter.

[Guest]

Fuck Everton and fuck this gloryhunting "I must support an English team" pish.

[Guest]

For many its "I must support an English team but there isnt any that I partucularly like...fuck it Ill choose Chelsea because theyre big now and according to a few people they have a pure speshul relationship with Rangers"

[PromDeAnglais 5,470]

3 minutes ago, BEE said:

Stopped reading when I saw Everton, why the fuck would you support a team that has a song about throwing Rangers fans in the Mersey?

See above in regards to where my parents are from, and I have no knowledge nor ever heard of any song at Goodison referencing Rangers fans...

[allgers 735]

See what you are saying, but I would like to see how this team stands up to some European football, how many times have we went out to teams who play quick high tempo football in the early stages. Why can't we do it?

[PromDeAnglais 5,470]

25 minutes ago, Willis said:

Fuck Everton and fuck this gloryhunting "I must support an English team" pish.

I think you're missing the point of my post, it's actually got very little to do with Everton, more about how Rangers tactically approach European football. Besides, I was a fan of both long before Sky Sports was invented. And to be fair, Everton don't get too much glory... I agree with you on the whole Chelsea thing, never understood it.

[centenarystand 2,227]

24 minutes ago, Willis said:

For many its "I must support an English team but there isnt any that I partucularly like...fuck it Ill choose Chelsea because theyre big now and according to a few people they have a pure speshul relationship with Rangers"

[cushynumber 25,178]

Nothing I have seen suggests MW will change a thing to be honest. Its how he wants his teams to play. If they are not good enough to play like that against better opposition then we will get beat.

Its interesting you pick Everton and us - both teams had scottish managers, who have a particular mindset when it comes to europe. MW is different in that respect

[PromDeAnglais 5,470]

1 minute ago, cushynumber said:

Nothing I have seen suggests MW will change a thing to be honest. Its how he wants his teams to play. If they are not good enough to play like that against better opposition then we will get beat.

Its interesting you pick Everton and us - both teams have scottish managers, who have a particular mindset when it comes to europe. MW is different in that respect

Nail, hammer, heed. Thats my thoughts exactly.

 

Will be interesting to see, as somebody mentioned above sometimes you just need to shut up shop and play ugly.

[Guest]

Just now, centenarystand said:

What the fuck has that got to do with anything?

 

[plumbGER 24,518]

I think Everton are brutal to watch,Lakaku caught offside constantly.....anyways

[sammy cox 664]

1 hour ago, PromDeAnglais said:

Rewind a good few years, fans were growing weary of defensive tactics against teams deemed not much stronger than ours, or even weaker. 4-5-1 in Europe was our way of saying give us all you've got, then we'll counter attack you - with some degree of success but in many instances it backfired against opposition who could be labelled as weaker than us at that point in time. 

Fast forward to the more recent past. In comes a manager like a breathe of fresh air: No long balls, ball on the ground, even the keeper and centre backs getting put through rigorous passing exercises. Attacking with flair, slick passing and in numbers. The initial result? Brilliant, everyone is entertained... the pundits and fans alike are lapping up the change in style to fast-tempo, offensive minded football with the majority of results going in favour.

Am I talking about Rangers?

No, my second team Everton.

The transformation under Moyes to Martinez has been incredible on the eye of every Everton fan, from extremely defensive physical teams with the aim of disrupting the opposition as opposed to Martinez's free flowing attacking football that simply aims to score more goals than the opposition. 

One major criticism of Martinez (this season mainly) has been Evertons inability to see out a game, the attacking football is still there for all to see, but now fans are growing more and more frustrated with the teams poor defending as Martinez refuses to change to a "Plan B" to defend a lead. As recently as today pundits and fans are saying that if Martinez had a fraction of Moyes defensive tactical know-how, Everton would be on the cusp of Champions League football next season, instead they find themselves closer to relegation.

This has got me thinking, there are a few similarities between the transition in tactics from a Rangers perspective (if you forget about Ally, or at least try), and compare Walter to Warburton.

Obviously, Warburton must be praised for the work he has done thus far, and I'm in no way underlying his work, but I have a slight hesitation about how we got about our return to football in Europe.

Make no mistake, the old firm has over the years punched well above their weight in Europe (not so much recently), but the success of Scottish teams in Europe has always been built on defence rather than offense.

What's your thoughts then? Would you like to see us try the same formation/tactics in Europe as we play now? Or would a more conservative approach from Warburton be required for the European stage?

Do we need a plan B in general? i.e. Old firm games and tougher away days?

Regardless, it's certainly not the worst problem to have and I cannot wait for the day that I hear Champions League anthem ringing around Ibrox again...  

I take some of your points but have read so many times about a " plan b " what is this plan b that people talk about.As far as playing ugly what exactly is playing ugly that some seem to think will get you a result.If and I may well be wrong playing ugly is defending a game or lead trying not to lose or hold a lead then there is no guarantee that playing ugly is going to get you that result either.There have been one or two examples in the past where playing ugly has  backfired just the same as playing shall we say the opposite of ugly whatever terminology you want to call that.

[Bears 792]

We will only find out how MW's tactics work against a seriously good team when we play in Europe. It will be an interesting time and a great experience for the players as they play against progressively better teams as the qualifiers/groups progress. If we can keep doing plan A better as we gain more experience against different tactics and more skilful players then good times are coming!

[graeme_4 34,460]

1 hour ago, Willis said:

Fuck Everton and fuck this gloryhunting "I must support an English team" pish.

To be fair, if you're 'glory hunting' it certainly wouldn't be with Everton. 

[Guest]

Just now, graeme_4 said:

To be fair, if you're 'glory hunting' it certainly wouldn't be with Everton. 

I agree but its the whole "I have to choose a team from the EPL where all the money and popularity is" as if supporting a Scottish team isnt enough. I just find it a bit laughable.

Fair dues OP has a family connection, I have no problem with that, I just dont understand folk that choose a team. Like I know a mate who supports Arsenal just because his mate supports Chelsea and posts a load of shite every time they play when I know he has no emotional connection to the Club.

Its like on reddit, if you go into the soccer forum theres tons of offended Americans that have chosen an EPL team and claim that theyre as much of a Liverpool fan for example as a persson who was brought up in Liverpool as a Liverpool fan. Which just shows how much of a clue they dont have

Just dont get folk choosing to support a team that they have no real connection too. Especially this "but they have a relationship with Rangers" nonsense

[Dazzler 2,428]

Maybe the clubs don't have a special relationship with Rangers or the majority of their fan base. However maybe the Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool fans etc who are putting the Rangers crest along side their own clubs crest do. Maybe they came to Glasgow, caught a game and were hooked!

On a trip to London, my cousin got me a ticket for the Arsenal v Porto game. It was a fantastic experience. I have no emotional connection to Arsenal, I don't particularly care if they win or loose, however last night I watched the game against Chelsea and hoped they would win. If I am away with work and the local team are playing I go and watch the game, so its the same for Cheltenham, Wolves, Man United & Wigan.

I only ever go in a huff when Rangers loose.

[ZZed 4,510]

Some supporter of other clubs may have decided they don't like Tims and thus they like us.

[Dazzler 2,428]

To comment on the OP, I hope we keep working on plan A. I've always thought we should let other teams worry about us. This Rangers team remind me of Unirea Urezni. They were young, hungry, unknown players but they played Rangers off the park. The only away team I have applauded off the park.