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Zelalem v Alloa


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48 minutes ago, Rangers_no1 said:

So we just base it on age and ignore that Zelalem has played more games in his career than Ball? 

No he hasn't. Why are you making stuff up?

15 minutes ago, Rangers_no1 said:

Don't think we were wrong to take him on loan, I thought he would have been great for us this year. Sadly he's not produced.

On what basis did you think an 18 year old playing his first season of senior football would be great? Just because he has a contract with Arsenal? That's a bit naive of you.

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36 minutes ago, Rangers_no1 said:

So we just base it on age and ignore that Zelalem has played more games in his career than Ball? Seems the age factor is only used to suit an argument and used as an excuse for Zelalem. Doesn't matter that the kid is only 19 years of age, he's came through at a massive club filled with great coaches and talented players, the standard at under 21 level is much superior to the Scottish second tier. Zelalem hasn't done enough for Rangers given the apparent world class talent and ability that many state he has on here!

Some even try to suggest our footballing style doesn't suit him. :lol:

I'd argue Zelalem has learnt more training with top players and playing in the under 21s for Arsenal than McKay has in the third division and on loan at Raith/Morton.

Who is saying Murdoch has more talent and potential? 

Couldn't care one single bit what potential Zelalem has or what he does in his career, all I care about is what is produced for my club. Stand by that Murdoch would have done as much(if not more) for us this season. Seems people would prefer Zelalem to become a star elsewhere which doesn't affect our football club and for Murdoch to fail here, just so they can come back and said I told you so. Even-though everybody knows who has more potential and talent and it doesn't help our club at all!

How far advanced is Zelalem? The kid is so far advanced he's struggling in the second tier of Scottish football?

Zelalem won't be dominating a top German team at 19/20 the way Ferguson did, so how will he be more advanced than Barry next year?

One final point that I find hilarious, is the people suggesting people in this country don't appreciate this type of player. Yet I've been arguing with English, Scottish and other British football fans for years when I was often told Gerrard/Lampard were better than Xavi/Iniesta. My favourite players over the years are Xavi, Iniesta, Riquelme, Redondo etc. This is the apparent type of player Zelalem is, but I don't see it at all, his passing is so overrated and he gives the ball away more often than many believe.

How has Zelalem played more games than Ball?

The age factor is huge. It's nothing to do with it suiting, generally players develop and improve as they get older. That's just a fact. It's the only definable absolute that you can compare players on. It doesn't mean everything, but it is some sort of rough guide. On average a player at 21 or 22 will be a better version of themselves than they were at 19. Of course there are other factors, but allowance must be made for age. And for his age, he looks a player. In terms of young players I've seen at Ibrox, the only one that could compare at a similar age is BF. Now whether that's because he's had a better grounding at Arsenal or not is by the by. That would be like saying you can't compare Charlie Adam to some Morton youngster because Adam had better infrastructure and surroundings. In fact you can compare. You can say Adam was better, and that part of the cause was his surroundings. Same with Zelalem. He is better than most youngsters were that we've seen come through at that age, more than likely partly because of his upbringing at Arsenal. He's still better though. That's the brass tacks of it. There's no reason to use his superior learning environment as a stick to beat him with. It, along with natural ability, is simply what's made him better. Which is how it's always been and always will be.

And the 'world class talent and ability' that some RMers, or anyone else gave him is irrelevant, and shouldn't be used as a benchmark to judge him by. He is, now, the player he is, not the player he's expected to be by some.

You ask who is saying Murdoch has more talent and potential? Nobody. I didn't say anyone had. I said some (you, IIRC) had made comparisons. I think you mentioned him in a previous post as if he could do everything that Zelalem is doing, and has as much of a justification to be in the team. I don't think that's accurate. I think Zelalem could grow into a player, maybe even for us next season. I think Murdoch never will, showed little in games, and showed little to suggest he had potential. 

What he's produced for the club, and whether you think loans of other club's players is a good idea, is a different argument, but I'd argue that for the division we are in, we were never going to get better than Zelalem (and Ball). Taking a Zelalem (who has in fact been a decent squad player in this division - he's not 'struggling' at all. He plays well enough for a boy just turned 19 and in the developmental part of his career) is hopefully as much about establishing relationships as anything else, and may well give us access to better when we're in the top division. Logically, it should follow that we'll get better, whether than be another player, or an improved Zelalem (if MW thinks he can improve enough for next year). 

And I don't know where you're getting this from...

'Seems people would prefer Zelalem to become a star elsewhere which doesn't affect our football club and for Murdoch to fail here, just so they can come back and said I told you so'

Because people think Murdoch is less capable than Zelalem, they want Zelalem to succeed and Murdoch to fail just for a told you so? I mean, that's really what you think?? I take it you have something else to base that on beyond just people expressing the opinion Zelalem is better? 

Zelalem may not dominate a German team (and let's not forget that BF was also surrounded by better players while he was doing that), or do anything similar, at the equivalent age (about a year and a half from now would be the equivalent), but I wouldn't be surprised at all if he went on to have a better career. 

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@Rangers_no1

I was basing it on their senior appearances. Dom Ball has played more games in that regard. It's up to you if you want to include youth games in relation to their experience of senior football, which even an argumentative so and so like you must surely admit is a different kettle of fish to youth games. Isn't that the reason players go on loan? Otherwise they'd just play youth games till their mid-twenties.

You said, and I quote directly,

34 minutes ago, Rangers_no1 said:

Don't think we were wrong to take him on loan, I thought he would have been great for us this year.

you thought he'd be "great". So don't accuse me of lying thanks.

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10 minutes ago, Rangers_no1 said:

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/dominic-ball/leistungsdaten/spieler/167254/plus/0?saison=ges

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/gedion-zelalem/leistungsdaten/spieler/228370/plus/0?saison=ges

No I wasn't lying!

As per usual Al you're the one to make up stuff, suggesting people expect him to be 'great' is lies, people expect better from a player than people on here are wax-lyrical over his passing and technically ability in the second tier of Scottish football. His age is irrelevant, he's played with top players and against very good players for Arsenal under 21s, a higher level than the second tier of Scottish football. 

Ah, right, so you're including all sorts of youth games rather than just senior games? 

Well, that definitely makes Ball's playing experience to be better. The weight of the League 2 games swings it well in his favour.

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13 hours ago, gogzy said:

Was one of the best games I have seen him play.  Looked up for it, got involved a lot and didn't hide.

Even took a few cracks at goal for a change.   I don't see him going on to be a world beater, but I think he will do well in football, he has bags of potential and seems to play some great passes.

pretty much what I was going to post

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8 minutes ago, Rangers_no1 said:

A great signing, like the majority of young players you can't expect great performances on a weekly basis or consistent performances. Can't be bothered to go and find the post I made recently on here when I said what I expected from Zelalem was a bit similar to McKay. Some fantastic games, some good games and there would be a few decent-poor games. Unfortunately it's been the latter with 1 or 2 good games.

Apology accepted.

8 minutes ago, Rangers_no1 said:

So starting 9 games for Cambridge against teams like York, Luton, Mansfield is a greater standard than playing for Arsenal under 21s and against season professionals in the under 21 league? Or against the best 18-21 players for the top countries across Europe? Rooney played for Man United under 21s recently. Look at the amount of Man United youngsters who are currently in the first team at United performing in a top league, you think players in league 2 are of that calibre?

As I've mentioned a few times in this thread, the under 21 level is a higher standard on the whole than the second tier of Scottish football and even league 2. But if you think playing the likes of Livi, Airdrie, Dumbarton, Cowdenbeath, York, Luton etc swings it in Ball's favour that's your opinion.

Why did Arsenal loan him out then?

Why does any EPL team loan out their youth players if the standard is so much better in their youth games? Senior football is a whole different experience and vital for turning a promising youth into a good professional.

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Just now, Rangers_no1 said:

A great signing, like the majority of young players you can't expect great performances on a weekly basis or consistent performances. Can't be bothered to go and find the post I made recently on here when I said what I expected from Zelalem was a bit similar to McKay. Some fantastic games, some good games and there would be a few decent-poor games. Unfortunately it's been the latter with 1 or 2 good games.

So starting 9 games for Cambridge against teams like York, Luton, Mansfield is a greater standard than playing for Arsenal under 21s and against season professionals in the under 21 league? Or against the best 18-21 players for the top countries across Europe? Rooney played for Man United under 21s recently. Look at the amount of Man United youngsters who are currently in the first team at United performing in a top league, you think players in league 2 are of that calibre?

As I've mentioned a few times in this thread, the under 21 level is a higher standard than the second tier of Scottish football and even league 2. But if you think playing the likes of Livi, Airdrie, Dumbarton, Cowdenbeath, York, Luton etc swings it in Ball's favour that's your opinion.

Yes, I would imagine so. That's why players go on loan. The value of competitive experience against teams of that level seems to be more highly regarded that youth games. Remember that most youth players, even from Arsenal, won't make it at that high a level.

I doubt Arsene Wenger sends players on loan, and specifically has sent Zelalem here, because he thinks it would be worse for his development than playing youth football. Same for Ball and Pochettino. 

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5 minutes ago, Rangers_no1 said:

Two simple reasons, which should be obvious.

1 - First team squad players get game time at this level to keep them sharp and fit

2 - These top clubs have numerous youth players and combined with the above can't play them all in an 11 a side match so they go out on loan

@Inigo ^^^

We're a massive club and have large crowds, we appeal more for that reason than the standard in our game. Didn't Wenger also say he doesn't like sending players on loan to Scotland due to poor standard? Warburton philosophy and connections convinced Wenger on this one.

 

I think that's a very simplified view of the loan system and you only see it that way to suit your point. Safe to say, I don't agree.

I think it's quite clear the difference between youth football and senior football, otherwise every highly rated youth player would become a top senior professional. You not wanting, or being able, to accept that makes this discussion a pointless exercise. I'm going to guess you play quite a bit of football manager... :pipe:

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1 minute ago, plymouthranger said:

its widely accepted by our own manager, as well as many top others including Wenger etc...

that reserve football is a lower standard than lower league. The intensity, pace and pressure cannot compare with that of a competitive match

It's very obvious, but not to everyone apparently.

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He done well but gets far too much stick. All season weve seen folk try fancy passes and flicks. He tried and nearly pulled off a first touch nutmeg of an Alloa player but ended up giving the ball away and the stadium let out one of the biggest groans ive heard for a while. Its fucking ridiculous sometimes. 

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16 minutes ago, Rangers_no1 said:

:mutley:

Warburton doesn't agree with the under 20s revamp in Scotland, ex players have been discussing this all season saying it benefited them more playing with squad players at reserve level and against other first team squad players rather than against players of a similar age. Which is the system in England, these players in the under 21s play with and against seasoned pro's. It's not rocket science if you understand the difference in systems in Scotland and England. The reserve league is certainly not a lower standard than league 2, that's a laughable claim. If it was then how have Rashford, Mensah, CBJ have all stepped up from only playing under 21 football to help United to a FA cup final and delivered in one of the best leagues in the world. Those 18 year olds in their first senior season have produced quality, but we can't accept that from Zelalem in the second tier of Scottish football!

Anyway I'm done with this if you can't grasp that the under 21s level is a higher standard and calibre of player than league 2, Man United should just sell all their youth and squad players and sign every Luton player. Higher standard! 

Quote

 

Look at Gedion Zelalem. At 18, he’s starting 20-odd games for Rangers and he will go back to Arsenal having played so many games for us and hopefully helping us achieve our targets, while they get back a better player.

“Tottenham have challenged Dom Ball by sending him here and we have to make sure we challenge our best young players in the same way.

“Chelsea have 34 players out on loan from the Dutch league to the English Championship and beyond. We’ve got to make sure in the same way, that our best young players are given meaningful football to prepare them for our first team.

Our goalkeeper at Brentford, David Button, had 13 loans coming through the Tottenham ranks but he learned from them all. Pritchard had a season with Swindon in League One, went to Brentford for a season in the Championship and is now at West Brom on loan. He’s still vying to get in the Spurs first team but his loans have been structured to prepare him for the first team level

 

There's no point you picking and choosing Warburtons words just to suit what you want believe.

Take him at his word, or don't, but don't flip flop just to suit your personal position.

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Thot he played well yesterday, didnt make the game yesterday so its one of the few times Ive actually seen us on telly which I think gives you a better view of how the team played, and he played well, could and should have sunk a couple that could have won us the game, but everyone misses shots, he looked a lot more composed than I normally think he does, that said if he leaves at the end of the season I wont be bothered.

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11 hours ago, Briton said:

 

He's a loan player.  His age is irrelevant; he must be judged on what he can give us right now.  So far that has been very little.  

So only over critique  young players on loan to us! Ok got it! I wonder if we all will do that and fully back our own young players I suspect not.  

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1 minute ago, siddiqi_drinker said:

Would start  him in the cup final as Ball is suspended.  Drop Halliday to defensive midfield and let Zelalem and Holt do the midfield work with Forrester in a free role and McKay Miller up top.

Probably won't happen and Shiels, omg, will get the nod.

No Waghorn?!!

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Just now, Bluepeter9 said:

So only over critique  young players on loan to us! Ok got it! I wonder if we all will do that and fully back our own young players I suspect not.  

You've got SFA mate.  I'll critique any player, young or old. I'm saying I don't want to make allowances for other clubs player because of their age or his potential. If he doesn't offer us something right now, then he shouldn't be playing*. I'd say the same for Ball if I didn't think he was offering enough. If Zelalem was on our books you could say; okay, he's not the real deal now, but the sacrifice is worth it because game time will benefit the player.  That's fine if you expect to reap the rewards but we wont with Zelalem.  Unless we have him for next season I guess but, even though he's gradually improving, I'm not confident that he'll improve enough short term to make that worthwhile. 

*TBF he isn't when we have a full squad.

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I think he's played well on his last 3 outings. Could be a star performer if we get him back next season.

His ability to take the ball in tight situations and twist and turn is top drawer. Got stuck into a few tackles against Alloa as well. 

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Wether you like him or not he's a future star.stevie wonder can see he will be a top player though he has tons to work on.

he has a great range of passing a great awareness of space and he keeps the midfield ticking over.

if he was as good as some of you guys wanted he'd be starting for Arsenal ffs 

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56 minutes ago, Briton said:

You've got SFA mate.  I'll critique any player, young or old. I'm saying I don't want to make allowances for other clubs player because of their age or his potential. If he doesn't offer us something right now, then he shouldn't be playing*. I'd say the same for Ball if I didn't think he was offering enough. If Zelalem was on our books you could say; okay, he's not the real deal now, but the sacrifice is worth it because game time will benefit the player.  That's fine if you expect to reap the rewards but we wont with Zelalem.  Unless we have him for next season I guess but, even though he's gradually improving, I'm not confident that he'll improve enough short term to make that worthwhile. 

*TBF he isn't when we have a full squad.

I don't like that we take loanees at all  - but I also hate that we get on the back of young payers so quick - especially on here when all  the 'experts' try to mask their negativity by calling it critique! 

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11 hours ago, Bluepeter9 said:

I don't like that we take loanees at all  - but I also hate that we get on the back of young payers so quick - especially on here when all  the 'experts' try to mask their negativity by calling it critique! 

I don't get on the back of any players, young or old.  I come on a forum and give my opinion.  Sometimes that is negative, other times positive.  Fuck off with misrepresenting my position.

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11 hours ago, kaiser1041 said:

Wether you like him or not he's a future star.stevie wonder can see he will be a top player though he has tons to work on.

he has a great range of passing a great awareness of space and he keeps the midfield ticking over.

if he was as good as some of you guys wanted he'd be starting for Arsenal ffs 

Well he already has played for Arsenal, but I get your point. He is two years younger than Barrie McKay, and I think he will be a top player, as you say. Time will tell how good he will become, and it's only my opinion; but he is the kind of player I like anyway so perhaps I'm very biased in his favour and I think he will play at the very top. He more than held his own at Hampden last week, and that is worth remembering considering it was his first time playing in a match of that nature, and the fact he hadn't played on a consistent basis in a while.

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