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Whatever happened to the "TBB Liaison Committee"?


Big V

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4 minutes ago, ForeverAndEver said:

We sing the Billy Boys and everybody in the country greets, look at the reaction after SCF and 4-2 against Hibs. Celtic sing IRA songs every week, videos on Twitter the lot, where's the outcry from the media? 

 

You are just a paranoid protestant.

 

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48 minutes ago, Bluepeter9 said:

Where did I say H** was offensive? It's one of those mock offended words that we use in this tit for tat shite 

Away you go and fuck yerself, you are an utter prick who seems to think it is okay to apply one rule for us and not for others.

I might have guessed you were a SNP piece of filth.

Rangers supporter? You were once pumped by a Rangers supporter more like 

I'm offended you call yourself a bear is their a law for that ?

 

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Just catching up on the thread, but while I am reading it I thought I would post an update:

I've had an initial canned response from FoCUS, but after explaining I am looking for a specific letter and given all the pertinent information, they're looking for it for me.

Hopefully they'll find it.

Note that the impression i got about this at the time was that FoCUS themselves were for the idea, but when word got a little higher up the chain of "command" it got squashed. Not sure if by the PF or someone else.

 

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14 hours ago, JCDBigBear said:

I was at the meeting and I seem to remember that it went well on the day but after they had discussed things with other parties we received this:

At the meeting last Friday I took on a couple of tasks in relation to the song ‘The Billy Boys’.

It is our understanding that ‘The Billy Boys’ refers to a criminal gang from the Bridgeton area of Glasgow and I can advise that any song sung which relates to criminal activity such as that gang engaged in cannot be given police approval. 

Informal discussions have been undertaken with the Football Liaison Procurator Fiscal for the West of Scotland and he has indicated that there is currently no certainty that singing any particular version of ‘The Billy Boys’ can be guaranteed to avoid criminal charges.  However, consultation with Crown Office Policy Unit will be required to obtain a formal position from Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service.     

I have also now spoken with a representative of the SFA and can advise that the SFA have said that this song has been banned by UEFA so discussions would need to be had with them before the song is brought back into the game.

Even with the changed lyrics, individuals could possibly be encouraged to sing the offensive lyrics which as a result could cause complaints and arrests and such complaints could in turn result in sanctions being imposed on the club.  It is therefore essential that the group seek a view from the club on the desirability of this or other songs.

As I advised at the meeting on Friday FoCUS will support the group with guidance on the criminal law, the Lord Advocate’s Guidelines on the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012 and the types of behaviour which has resulted in prosecution.

You should be able to contact the SFA on the general email address which is info@scottishsfa.co.uk

 

 

I think the meeting was on the 19th April 2013 and after a phone call from them on 23rd the email arrived on 25th.

 

I got the distinct impression that someone above FoCUS influenced the decision-making.

That's it! I think that may be the letter I received too.

Well found bud.

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On reflection, having read the rest of the thread, and re-read the response we got, perhaps we were a little too hasty in our capitulation.

The fact the UEFA banned the song - does that mean it must not be sung at European games, or all games? If it's the former then all we really need to do is to organise education (e.g. flyering and such) to have people sing a slightly altered lyric (suspect we'd only need to drop the one word/phrase) as long as the syllables are consistent it could be anything.... "we're up to our knees in nationalists"? Whatever.

The idea that "we are the Billy boys" is illegal is false - even the police themselves only said basically  "we cannot give this police sanction" [due to the nature of the history of the phrase]. That's a far cry from "you'll get charged for singing it".

I wonder if we did the stuff we intended to do with regard the flyering, match day inserts, or whatever, and actually got the majority of support to sing an altered version, we could then go to UEFA and say "hey we've change this lyric, demonstrably" and also point out the other various clubs that use the same tune - they might be more inclined to reconsider at that point.

Thoughts?

We don't need police permission, or SFA permission - we just need them to not attack us for singing the song (hence why lyrical change is important). Having the club on board would be a great help though - and with Rangers men in charge again, perhaps this could be a goer?

I don't have the time, resources, or indeed contacts to really work with the club on this, I wonder if any of the other committee members are in a better position?

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The rhattlers can do what they want where on the other hand we can't even sing TBB without national mhedia horror and fans being jailed and banned, this will not change for the foreseeable future or until we have leaders with baws who will take them head on!:sherlock:

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2 minutes ago, Big V said:

On reflection, having read the rest of the thread, and re-read the response we got, perhaps we were a little too hasty in our capitulation.

The fact the UEFA banned the song - does that mean it must not be sung at European games, or all games? If it's the former then all we really need to do is to organise education (e.g. flyering and such) to have people single a slightly better lyric.

The idea that "we are the Billy boys" is illegal is false - even the police them selves only said "we cannot give this police sanction due to the nature of the history of the phrase". That's a far cry from "you'll get charged for singing it".

I wonder if we did the stuff we intended to do with regard the flyering, match day inserts, or whatever, and actually got the majority of support to sing an altered version, we could then go to UEFA and say "hey we've change this lyric, demonstrably" and also point out the other various clubs that use the same tune - they might be more inclined to reconsider at that point.

Thoughts?

 

Totally agree mate. I also felt that the crown office or higher just threw out a negative response just so they don't have to attempt any weak prosecutions. They know rightly If we actually organised ourselves & made the changes there's no way the could get a conviction. 

If we went down that route and changed the words then it's up to each individual to follow them. If they don't they personally take the consequences.

I'll post my response from focus later that states they are not aware of any list of banned songs which I interpret that it's only certain "offensive" lyrics within the songs that may result in prosecutions.

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3 hours ago, D'Artagnan said:

Its not a discussion about a "shite law" though BP 9 - its a discussion about a song which the Liaison committee have been told is "banned" irrespective of any literary changes that may be introduced. And that is despite the fact that the "shitey law" which the SNP introduced (despite warnings from many) does not make any mention of this or any other song for that matter.

Its not paranoia when our fans are clearly been treated differently from fans elsewhere and no matter how much you try to mock our own fans & suggest they are as paranoid as others - the facts stand there is a prima facie case here which highlights how our are fans are treated differently from others.

A prima facia case in their own minds ! - Focus are not law makers ( and neither are the PFs) - and all of this is in how the question was actually asked and answered ( none of the detail I have) - I can see why anyone officially being put on the spot would tread water and distance themselves from giving a definitive answer - so really it needs tested in a court of law - trouble is those already arrested for this ( from what I see) have basically been 'disruptive' in other ways - but we all claim ' all he did was sing TBB - but I doubt that is the case. If folk want to test it - sing it - be respectful and  I doubt you'd get arrested.

Basically It's a shite law - most clubs fans dislike it other clubs fans have also been found guilty of Religiously aggravated 'offending' - ergo I don't buy into this nonsense that only we get pulled up for it - and its that paranoid rubbish that I laugh at - especially as the paranoia is usually laced with the 'Rangers/Protestant/ loyalist labels' - oh they are out to get us - boo hoo - it does is no favours at all. 

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3 hours ago, Copland bear said:

Away you go and fuck yerself, you are an utter prick who seems to think it is okay to apply one rule for us and not for others.

I might have guessed you were a SNP piece of filth.

Rangers supporter? You were once pumped by a Rangers supporter more like 

I'm offended you call yourself a bear is their a law for that ?

 

'Away and fuck myself' - :lol::lol: 

cool debating style - nearly made me change my mind there and start going to church, ( CosS of course) while whistling TBBs and wishing I had voted to stay in the union! 

Nearly! 

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21 minutes ago, Bluepeter9 said:

A prima facia case in their own minds ! - Focus are not law makers ( and neither are the PFs) - and all of this is in how the question was actually asked and answered ( none of the detail I have) - I can see why anyone officially being put on the spot would tread water and distance themselves from giving a definitive answer - so really it needs tested in a court of law - trouble is those already arrested for this ( from what I see) have basically been 'disruptive' in other ways - but we all claim ' all he did was sing TBB - but I doubt that is the case. If folk want to test it - sing it - be respectful and  I doubt you'd get arrested.

Basically It's a shite law - most clubs fans dislike it other clubs fans have also been found guilty of Religiously aggravated 'offending' - ergo I don't buy into this nonsense that only we get pulled up for it - and its that paranoid rubbish that I laugh at - especially as the paranoia is usually laced with the 'Rangers/Protestant/ loyalist labels' - oh they are out to get us - boo hoo - it does is no favours at all. 

Theres not a lot in that I would disagree with. Probably because you have not addressed the issues.

(1) The song is not banned

(2) Fans of other clubs sing it without punishment

(3) Even when the line in the song which could be deemed offensive is removed - Rangers fans are still told its "banned"

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1 hour ago, D'Artagnan said:

Theres not a lot in that I would disagree with. Probably because you have not addressed the issues.

(1) The song is not banned

(2) Fans of other clubs sing it without punishment

(3) Even when the line in the song which could be deemed offensive is removed - Rangers fans are still told its "banned"

Ok if it's not banned sing away - the letter I believe is published in this thread - it's just a sort of Arse wipe cover letter - but nothing in it says it's banned - as I said before those done under the act ( and I paraphrase here ) were basically acting like Fannie's - in fact most of the offences seem directed at the police ( and again paraphraseing ) you can just see them telling the officer(s) they are fenian bastard's and getting huckedled. 

But again my point is our paranoia about it all  - that somehow this act is aimed at us - it's not. 

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2 minutes ago, Bluepeter9 said:

Ok if it's not banned sing away - the letter I believe is published in this thread - it's just a sort of Arse wipe cover letter - but nothing in it says it's banned - as I said before those done under the act ( and I paraphrase here ) were basically acting like Fannie's - in fact most of the offences seem directed at the police ( and again paraphraseing ) you can just see them telling the officer(s) they are fenian bastard's and getting huckedled. 

But again my point is our paranoia about it all  - that somehow this act is aimed at us - it's not. 

In the letter there is a lie as there is no evidence that UEFA have banned TBB. It might be paranoid but sometimes its justified. I'm not entirely sure how you come to your opinion but I, as a relative outsider (having lived in England for 40 years before I spent 8 in Scotland) can see theres something behind the 'Protestant paranoia' as you like to put it. Maybe you are using denial as a coping method I can't really say but I've never seen the same level of bias(not necessarily a conspiracy) as I witnessed when I lived up there.

 

 

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There are no "banned" songs in a court of law (the only court that matters). The only 'body' who can "ban" a song are the owners of the stadium you have paid entrance to, Rangers for example, and if they so wished they could "punish" you for contravention of the "ban" by banning you! That's about the length of it. UEFA could in theory "ban" a song and impose sanctions, doubt they would though.

The other more pertinent question is whether singing the song, in all its guises, falls foul of OBFA, that's still heavily up for debate. 

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56 minutes ago, Bluepeter9 said:

Ok if it's not banned sing away - the letter I believe is published in this thread - it's just a sort of Arse wipe cover letter - but nothing in it says it's banned - as I said before those done under the act ( and I paraphrase here ) were basically acting like Fannie's - in fact most of the offences seem directed at the police ( and again paraphraseing ) you can just see them telling the officer(s) they are fenian bastard's and getting huckedled. 

But again my point is our paranoia about it all  - that somehow this act is aimed at us - it's not. 

Call it a hunch, even an educated guess BP 9, but I suspect when the chaps/ladies on the liaison committee suggested to Plod about changing the lyrics they werent talking about singining "Goodbye Goodbye We are the Billy Boys"...

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9 minutes ago, five stars said:

It really up to the supporters. We should get our own legal advice on a version with amended words. 

Then send a polite email to Rangers, Focus and the SFA telling them we will be singing the song and letting them know the new lyric.

 

 

If only we had a single strong supporters group with funds to help us out. 

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1 hour ago, RFC Eagle said:

In the letter there is a lie as there is no evidence that UEFA have banned TBB. It might be paranoid but sometimes its justified. I'm not entirely sure how you come to your opinion but I, as a relative outsider (having lived in England for 40 years before I spent 8 in Scotland) can see theres something behind the 'Protestant paranoia' as you like to put it. Maybe you are using denial as a coping method I can't really say but I've never seen the same level of bias(not necessarily a conspiracy) as I witnessed when I lived up there.

 

 

Well I probably start from the premise that I ain't Protestant and then look at the majority of my fellow fans who also don't seem that Protestant either. I also get out and about a bit with non- Rangers fans and listen to their, often funnily warped, opinions and realise we are all daft to a degree and us little people all think 'the man' is out to screw us! So I laugh at those traits within myself and laugh at others demonstrating those traits - I also try to keep some perspective that football is only a game and supporting Rangers, whilst imensely enjoyable, should not define who I am or what I believe.

And after all that all that I express on here is just my opinion! 

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1 hour ago, Bluepeter9 said:

Ok if it's not banned sing away - the letter I believe is published in this thread - it's just a sort of Arse wipe cover letter - but nothing in it says it's banned - as I said before those done under the act ( and I paraphrase here ) were basically acting like Fannie's - in fact most of the offences seem directed at the police ( and again paraphraseing ) you can just see them telling the officer(s) they are fenian bastard's and getting huckedled. 

But again my point is our paranoia about it all  - that somehow this act is aimed at us - it's not. 

You are correct there in the part I've bolded BP.

And you'd be correct concerning the various charges laid against Gers fans who ran on to the park at the final were not made to be used against us specifically. 

However, both the legislative advice on thebanning of songs at football, and the bringing in of charges after the cup final by the police have specifically been made mostly against our fans.

So it's not the content of the act that is the biggest problem, it's the (bigoted and biased in my view) use of it by Poice Scotland that suggests we are being focused on (pun intended) and specifically targeted by those in charge of the police or the paymasters.

Totally and  undisputably corrupt, immoral and unethical are the police  authorities and political institutions in Scotland. And the fact they don't even feel the need to justify or balance this targetting of us should be a major worry for all decent traditional fair minded Scots outside the Labour, SNP, media and catholic cliques .  

There is much,much more to this than the authorities wanting to ban a few wee footballl tunes,that's just the start.

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4 minutes ago, tannerall said:

You are correct there in the part I've bolded BP.

And you'd be correct concerning the various charges laid against Gers fans who ran on to the park at the final were not made to be used against us specifically. 

However, both the legislative advice on thebanning of songs at football, and the bringing in of charges after the cup final by the police have specifically been made mostly against our fans.

So it's not the content of the act that is the biggest problem, it's the (bigoted and biased in my view) use of it by Poice Scotland that suggests we are being focused on (pun intended) and specifically targeted by those in charge of the police or the paymasters.

Totally and  undisputably corrupt, immoral and unethical are the police  authorities and political institutions in Scotland. And the fact they don't even feel the need to justify or balance this targetting of us should be a major worry for all decent traditional fair minded Scots outside the Labour, SNP, media and catholic cliques .  

See it's phrases like 'targeting' thst lead me to my opinion about paranoia - I tend not to trust the purely anecdotal evidence presented on here that, say the charges against fans at the cup final were made 'mostly against our fans' - I also tend not to read the red tops as they do have a warped sense of a story based on what sells papers. Us! Big bad us sometimes - but that's not an agenda against us that's just journalists being the shites they are. 

I also find it difficult to reconcile in my head that the police, knowing the size of our support and the level we scrutininse would somehow collude with all and sundry to paint us in a particularly bad light - and why? The favourite reason on here is that they do do st the behest of the SNP? Why because we are all supposed to be Union supporting voters and need trampled down, and not embraced as a voting block? Utter nonsense to me - all of that.

the government created a shite law ( and what government has not done that) - but all this 'they did it to target us' is just bollocks IMHO! 

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1 hour ago, Bluepeter9 said:

See it's phrases like 'targeting' thst lead me to my opinion about paranoia - I tend not to trust the purely anecdotal evidence presented on here that, say the charges against fans at the cup final were made 'mostly against our fans' - I also tend not to read the red tops as they do have a warped sense of a story based on what sells papers. Us! Big bad us sometimes - but that's not an agenda against us that's just journalists being the shites they are. 

I also find it difficult to reconcile in my head that the police, knowing the size of our support and the level we scrutininse would somehow collude with all and sundry to paint us in a particularly bad light - and why? The favourite reason on here is that they do do st the behest of the SNP? Why because we are all supposed to be Union supporting voters and need trampled down, and not embraced as a voting block? Utter nonsense to me - all of that.

the government created a shite law ( and what government has not done that) - but all this 'they did it to target us' is just bollocks IMHO! 

Really?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15790225

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9 minutes ago, theiconicman said:

Did you actually read the article before posting or just the first paragraph and headline?

a wee snippet- 

One-third of the total 693 charges were made in football grounds. Of those, 47 (52%) were at Celtic Park and 24 (27%) were at Ibrox.

Fewer than 5% of the charges related to marches and parades.

In just over 60% of cases, the accused had consumed alcohol prior to the offence. 

Police officers were the most common victims of religious hate crime, accounting for 42% of the incidents.

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18 minutes ago, Bluepeter9 said:

Did you actually read the article before posting or just the first paragraph and headline?

a wee snippet- 

One-third of the total 693 charges were made in football grounds. Of those, 47 (52%) were at Celtic Park and 24 (27%) were at Ibrox.

Fewer than 5% of the charges related to marches and parades.

In just over 60% of cases, the accused had consumed alcohol prior to the offence. 

Police officers were the most common victims of religious hate crime, accounting for 42% of the incidents.

So poor police officers get abuse so the law was brought in to save their sensibilities?

Nonsense. 

The law was brought in to tackle AntiCatholic hate crime given the Roman Church commented/ Celtic commented and statistics were provide to show how victimised they were. 

You may choose to see equality in the law, I think you're blind. 

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