OlegKuznetsov 10,816 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 I'm sure most of you know him as a fan of the East end lot, but he's been getting some stick on his efforts for the NO campaign. He also spoke supportively about us in 2012 during administration. So I've had a bit of a mixed perception of him.I heard on Radio Scotland that he had written a book called "The 10 Matches That Changed the World". Instantly, I wondered if he'd include the Old Firm and whether that would be done in a way that "revealed his true colours".Using the "Look Inside" feature on Amazon, I noticed that it did have a chapter on the Old Firm. That grabbed my curiosity, so I read the chapter in question using Google Play's sample feature.I suspected he would over-romanticise his own club and vilify ours. I was mainly surprised.He actually criticises his fellow supporters for both over-romanticising their own club, but also for the IRA chants, which he condemns vociferously. He also accepts that he can be blinded by " [in politics ] red-rose-tinded glasses and, in football, [he] swaps them for hooped emerald-green ones".He asks "when did Rangers start their signing policy?". After consulting club historians from both sides of the divide, he settles that it was around 1924 but cannot "name a date or board meeting decision 'we are a Protestant football club' was made".History books elsewhere have indicated that we did have many known Catholics in our early years and beyond(Catholics who signed for Rangers before Johnston include, before the end of World War I: Pat Lafferty (1886), Tom Dunbar (1891–1892), J Tutty (1899–1900), Archie Kyle (1904–1908), Willie Kivlichan (1906–1907), Colin Mainds (1906–1907), Tom Murray (1907–1908), William Brown (1912), Joe Donnachie (circa.1914–1918) and John Jackson (1917). Thereafter, Catholic players prior to Mo Johnston's signing include: Laurie Blyth (1951–1952), Don Kitchenbrand (1955–1956), Hugh O'Neill (1976), John Spencer (1985–1992) (Bill Murray, The Old Firm – Sectarianism, Sport and Society in Scotland (John Donald Publishers, 1984) pp 64–5)So you have a period of 34 years where we didn't sign a Catholic. However, Graham Spiers in an article about Bill Struth, published in the Herald about a decade ago, suggests that Mr Struth tried to sign several Catholics, but they refused, preferring to join the Catholic club. So even those 34 years don't fully justify such a claim.I contend, that despite much media consensus that there was such a policy, that there was no actual policy, and that it was either an accident of history or more a practice, instead.On the other hand, he accepts that Brother Walfrid had an aspiration for an all Catholic team but that "a religious bias in team selection [that] never became reality", using a rheumatoid Orangeman, TomDuff, played in goal in 1892, but lost 8 goals to Dumbarton after overdosing on his medication,as evidence. I thought otherwise, and researched a little bit more.All of Walfrid's first team were indeed Catholics. I won't list them for you here, but I had to visit a couple of sites I never use to confirm this.In conclusion, I stand by my original position that we never had such a policy, as such, but that our rivals did, and furthermore, that they achieved their aspiration. I may write to Mr Murphy about this, but do not think that he has been intentionally unfair to us.His chapter never reaches the levels of bias that you might fear, but I do feel his view is somewhat skewed from the reality, although not by any massive measure. I agree with him, and some of his contributors that the Protestant identity became more a concious part of our Club in the 20s, with the influx of Ulster shipyard workers Harland and Wolff on the banks of the Clyde, and would also agree that it was Scotland and Scottish society that wanted a Protestant Scottish club as a counterweight to the Irish Catholic club. (I think it was Bill Murray who also wrote this and suggested that Queens Park were Scotland's first choice as a Scottish Protestant club.)This also happened between the wars, after the great depression and such social frictions can develop at such times. It's a common phenomena in human social history.In closing, I would say that Mr Murphy has been rather fair, and can be allowed what I think are minor, if important, variances from fact. I suspect he would, however, be open to my research if presented with it. I am also quite happy with his efforts outwith this matter in relation to the referendum. In his defence, he helped organise a charity match at Ibrox, and actually scored a diving header, of which he seems rather proud, for the Rangers team on that day. Here is photographic evidence below, and I hope it doesn't offend your eyes. Nonetheless, it does appear that the media have been massively unfair to us on this subject over many decades, so I credit him with a surprising level of balance. It would have been very easy for him to put the hackneyed old boot into us, given his preferences, but he hasn't. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitre_mouldmaster 21,509 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Refreshing to hear.We need more objectivity on both sides and regardless of which club he follows, it is good to see someone in politics who can come to their own conclusion, rather than follow the party line. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluepeter9 5,167 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 I'm sure most of you know him as a fan of the East end lot, but he's been getting some stick on his efforts for the NO campaign. He also spoke supportively about us in 2012 during administration. So I've had a bit of a mixed perception of him.I heard on Radio Scotland that he had written a book called "The 10 Matches That Changed the World". Instantly, I wondered if he'd include the Old Firm and whether that would be done in a way that "revealed his true colours".Using the "Look Inside" feature on Amazon, I noticed that it did have a chapter on the Old Firm. That grabbed my curiosity, so I read the chapter in question using Google Play's sample feature.I suspected he would over-romanticise his own club and vilify ours. I was mainly surprised.He actually criticises his fellow supporters for both over-romanticising their own club, but also for the IRA chants, which he condemns vociferously. He also accepts that he can be blinded by " [in politics ] red-rose-tinded glasses and, in football, [he] swaps them for hooped emerald-green ones".He asks "when did Rangers start their signing policy?". After consulting club historians from both sides of the divide, he settles that it was around 1924 but cannot "name a date or board meeting decision 'we are a Protestant football club' was made".History books elsewhere have indicated that we did have many known Catholics in our early years and beyond(Catholics who signed for Rangers before Johnston include, before the end of World War I: Pat Lafferty (1886), Tom Dunbar (1891–1892), J Tutty (1899–1900), Archie Kyle (1904–1908), Willie Kivlichan (1906–1907), Colin Mainds (1906–1907), Tom Murray (1907–1908), William Brown (1912), Joe Donnachie (circa.1914–1918) and John Jackson (1917). Thereafter, Catholic players prior to Mo Johnston's signing include: Laurie Blyth (1951–1952), Don Kitchenbrand (1955–1956), Hugh O'Neill (1976), John Spencer (1985–1992) (Bill Murray, The Old Firm – Sectarianism, Sport and Society in Scotland (John Donald Publishers, 1984) pp 64–5)So you have a period of 34 years where we didn't sign a Catholic. However, Graham Spiers in an article about Bill Struth, published in the Herald about a decade ago, suggests that Mr Struth tried to sign several Catholics, but they refused, preferring to join the Catholic club.I contend, that despite much media consensus that there was such a policy, that there was no actual policy, and that it was either an accident of history or more a practice, instead.On the other hand, he accepts that Brother Walfrid had an aspiration for an all Catholic team but that "a religious bias in team selection [that] never became reality", using a rheumatoid Orangeman, TomDuff, played in goal in 1892, but lost 8 goals to Dumbarton after overdosing on his medication,as evidence. I thought otherwise, and researched a little bit more.All of Walfrid's first team were indeed Catholics. I won't list them for you here, but I had to visit a couple of sites I never use to confirm this.In conclusion, I stand by my original position that we never had such a policy, as such, but that our rivals did, and furthermore, that they achieved their aspiration. I may write to Mr Murphy about this, but do not think that he has been intentionally unfair to us.His chapter never reaches the levels of bias that you might fear, but I do feel his view is somewhat skewed from the reality, although not by any massive measure. I agree with him, and some of his contributors that the Protestant identity became more a concious part of our Club in the 20s, with the influx of Ulster shipyard workers Harland and Wolff on the banks of the Clyde, and would also agree that it was Scotland and Scottish society that wanted a Protestant Scottish club as a counterweight to the Irish Catholic club. This also happened between the wars, after the great depression and such social frictions can develop at such times. It's a common phenomena in human social history.In closing, I would say that Mr Murphy has been rather fair, and can be allowed what I think are minor, if important, variances from fact. I suspect he would, however, be open to my research if presented with it. I am also quite happy with his efforts outwith this matter in relation to the referendum. In his defence, he helped organise a charity match at Ibrox, and actually scored a diving header, of which he seems rather proud, for the Rangers team on that day. Here is photographic evidence below, and I hope it doesn't offend your eyes. Nonetheless, it does appear that the media have been massively unfair to us on this subject over many decades, so I credit him with a surprising level of balance.Interesting post - thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlegKuznetsov 10,816 Posted August 30, 2014 Author Share Posted August 30, 2014 Refreshing to hear.We need more objectivity on both sides and regardless of which club he follows, it is good to see someone in politics who can come to their own conclusion, rather than follow the party line.I'm also not a fan of New Labour, but he has been rather good on independence, so I was curious to see his take. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlegKuznetsov 10,816 Posted August 30, 2014 Author Share Posted August 30, 2014 Interesting post - thanksYou're most welcome. I do such research with some appetite as our historical media perception is a bit of a hobby horse of mine. I feel we need to redress the balance in that regard. So this was right up my street, so to speak. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlBear. 8,499 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Your commitment and effort to research is exemplary D'Art Oleg. Struggle to comprehend why as a scum fan he played for Rangers in an old firm charity match. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fed Up 211 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Well done on that research - I confess to being quite surprised at Murphy's apparently reasonable and objective position. On the matter of sectarianism your facts match very well with the stories an old uncle of mine used to talk about. He also poke about how The King visited Ibrox and how Rangers became the focus of patriotism and indeed how Mr Struth adopted these tenets. I am too young (how rarely I can say that) to remember the days of the bowler hats but I do know and remember how our players had to dress in collar and tie at all times when representing our Club. It was on a footing of respect, discipline and loyalty that Rangers were forged into the greatest team in the country. Struth of course also developed the links with the establishment club in England - Arsenal. Neither Club was remotely sectarian but rather patriotic and loyal. The guys at Founders Trail have unearthed some fantastic stuff about our proud and loyal history. I was always told to be proud that I was a Rangers fan - I always will be and every Rangers fan should feel that way. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
govanblue 16,847 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Your commitment and effort to research is exemplary D'Art. your attention to detail leaves a lot to be desired Joe. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluepeter9 5,167 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Your commitment and effort to research is exemplary D'Art. Struggle to comprehend why as a scum fan he played for Rangers in an old firm charity match.Err it was Oleg not d'art - own goal Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlBear. 8,499 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Aye you're naw tae bad either Oleg.In my defense I was so engrossed in the post I had no idea who had posted it. Or maybe that was the Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlegKuznetsov 10,816 Posted August 30, 2014 Author Share Posted August 30, 2014 Your commitment and effort to research is exemplary D'Art Oleg. Struggle to comprehend why as a scum fan he played for Rangers in an old firm charity match.Cheers.The politicians and celebrities got the Rangers jerseys, and the unemployed teenagers of both sides got the hoopy ones. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlBear. 8,499 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Cheers.The politicians and celebrities got the Rangers jerseys, and the unemployed teenagers of both sides got the hoopy ones.Quite apt.Apologies for the mistaken identity. I have a great respect for what you, and that other guy, do on all our behalf. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlegKuznetsov 10,816 Posted August 30, 2014 Author Share Posted August 30, 2014 Quite apt.Apologies for the mistaken identity. I have a great respect for what you, and that other guy, do on all our behalf.D'Art and others do a lot more than me.I do a little when I can. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
don logan 8,062 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 I like Jim Murphy. Despite his the love of the rhats, his heart is in the right place. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
minstral 5,375 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Enjoyed that Oleg, and thanks for posting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlegKuznetsov 10,816 Posted August 30, 2014 Author Share Posted August 30, 2014 I like Jim Murphy. Despite his the love of the rhats, his heart is in the right place.I think so too. He's not as venomous as others often are.You may say that's due to him being a politician, but it didn't stop Lord/Baron Reid of the oppressed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapid6 77 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 I have massive respect for this guy. Not only for his independence efforts but remember how humble and genuine he was at the Clutha helicopter crash. He was an ordinary Glaswegian that night and never seeked to use any political clout then or afterwards.Anyway, vote NO folks. That was a great banner today in the Broomloan front, and the flags and statement about being British, Scottish and Proud! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlegKuznetsov 10,816 Posted August 30, 2014 Author Share Posted August 30, 2014 Enjoyed that Oleg, and thanks for posting.It was a pleasure doing the research, given that the issue is close to my heart.I did fear another hatchet job, but wasn't convinced it was inevitable, as he'd been decent in the past about us. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshoreworker 204 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 i came across jim murphy some 10 years ago when iwas doing royal navy sea trialsand he was the only one that came across to the lads and having a laughripped the arse off him for being a tim took it welld'art that is one gentleman i respect Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmcf 34,152 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 Excellent post Oleg. It really does put a different slant of our ' signing policy ' than what is generally accepted for as long as I've been around. As for Jim Murphy , I have a lot of time for him , particularly with his efforts regarding the referendum and has been subject to some vile abuse because of it. ( OT - More Dirty Tactics From Yes Campaign , Pg9 , Post 168 ). If as many big names had put the effort in that he has , I'm sure the No vote would be a lot more secure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlegKuznetsov 10,816 Posted August 30, 2014 Author Share Posted August 30, 2014 i came across jim murphy some 10 years ago when iwas doing royal navy sea trialsand he was the only one that came across to the lads and having a laughripped the arse off him for being a tim took it welld'art that is one gentleman i respectThis isn't that surprising, the more I hear about him.My new identity is, however, something of a surprise.P.S. FAO D'Art, should he read this. I am not trying to imitate you, but for some reason, others have mistaken me for you. That said, I can only take it as a compliment. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Robot 21,149 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 I need to give him credit for his 100 towns tour and promoting the no campaign but he was out of order for his comments regarding the Orange. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJ 743 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 A great read and it proves that there are objective fans on both sides of the Clyde. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlegKuznetsov 10,816 Posted August 30, 2014 Author Share Posted August 30, 2014 Excellent post Oleg.It really does put a different slant of our ' signing policy ' than what is generally accepted for as long as I've been around.As for Jim Murphy , I have a lot of time for him , particularly with his efforts regarding the referendum and has been subject to some vile abuse because of it. ( OT - More Dirty Tactics From Yes Campaign , Pg9 , Post 168 ). If as many big names had put the effort in that he has , I'm sure the No vote would be a lot more secure.Here's the direct link to it and the video below.http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=273059&st=160#entry1062158610http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDi1OXJn4Vw Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mabawsa 888 Posted August 30, 2014 Share Posted August 30, 2014 When we where in Admin he said some decent things. He told how one of his first jobs was when he worked in hospitality at Ibrox and he had a lot of time for the people at the club. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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