cantona

Didn't you say it was the law ? a criminal offence ? It states that an offence is aggravated by religious prejudice if : (a) “the offender evinces towards the victim (if any) of the offence malice and ill-will based on the victim’s membership or presumed membership of a religious group, or of a social or cultural group with a perceived religious affiliation; or (b) the offence is motivated (wholly or partly) by malice and ill-will towards members of a religious group, or of a social or cultural group with a perceived religious affiliation, based on their membership of that group”. The key question was – Could vocal approval of the IRA in a public place be considered not simply a potential breach of the peace but one aggravated by religious prejudice? The sheriff listened to the evidence, including my own statement, and the various submissions on this question both by defence lawyers and the Crown. He concluded that doubtless some members of the public might take offence at songs being sung in support of an organisation which the UK Government considered to be a terrorist movement. Nonetheless, he ruled that the IRA was a republican military organisation, was not sectarian in intent and that those who showed support for it, real or rhetorical, were not showing “malice or ill will towards members of a religious group’’. The charge could not therefore be sustained under the 2003 legislation and the accusation of a religiously aggravated breach was dismissed. The court case has set precedent in that any person, whether they are Celtic fans or not, singing such songs glorifying the IRA cannot be charged with religiously nor sectarian aggravated breach of the peace. How much more do you want us to give, as to your original question, malice must be proved, as exemplified by various failed cases. By Stephen Breen 17 October 2004 A BITTER war-of-words erupted last night between nationalists and unionists after a Scottish court ruled 'The Sash' was NOT a sectarian song. Sinn Fein and the DUP clashed, after it emerged Scot, Barry Longmire, who was accused of singing sectarian songs outside a police station, was acquitted of breaking anti-bigotry laws. Longmire ( 18 ), from Lankashire, was cleared at Hamilton Sheriff Court, after his solicitor convinced the judge 'The Sash' was not a sectarian song. The teenager faced religious prejudice charges. But his acquittal has caused shockwaves through the Scottish legal system. His solicitor told the court: "The Sash is a folk song of family bonds in the Orange tradition. Its words are not offensive to anyone. "The Sash - in itself - is not sectarian. If it was being sung outside a Celtic club to wind people up, then the legislation would come into play." DUP Assemblyman, Nelson McCausland, said the court ruling "cannot" be ignored in Northern Ireland. A Rangers fan who shouted sectarian abuse during a Scottish Cup tie with Dunfermline has been cleared of committing an offence because nobody was upset by his remark. John Dryburgh from Glasgow, stood up and yelled “You Fenian bastard!” as his team trailed the Pars by two goals with just 30 minutes of the third round match gone. Sheriff Ian Dunbar ruled he had not committed a breach of the peace because there was no evidence to suggest that anyone had been upset by what he said. Dryburgh was sitting in a stand full of Rangers supporters and there was no evidence he had upset anyone. “I do not accept an offence has been committed,” the Sheriff said. “But that does not mean that to use such words would not be an offence under a different set of circumstances.” Also coming soon to a place near you, maybe even next door, the price of appeasement, courtesy of VB admin. http://www.vanguardbears.co.uk/index.php/component/content/article/103-it-could-be-you

No that would be just doing his job, he is after all the manager, shouldn't he decide how the available is spent, on players he wants. It is his job that is on the line, not Smith's.

I sense you are grasping at straws, your analogy is childish in the extreme, only someone who required sectioning would carry out such a stupid act. I wasn't aware that we had changed from the subject matter to deliberately entering Police stations to antagonise those within The front desks are in the main manned by civilian workers, you will find the desk sergeant in the custody suite.

As I said, the owner said the money is available, maybe what really needs to happen is for Alistair to put his foot down, with Smith and Whyte, because as it stands it really doesn't look as if either is taking much notice of his submitted requests, that is actually signing players Alastair has marked as required or he wants.

No it isn't. That is even more simple, and if a crime is committed there is no question of, if arrested, arrest is automatic as any rookie Police probationer will tell you.

UEFA cannot convict anyone of anything, they can issue sanctions against trespass of their articles, they cannot even then issue sanctions that would not be natural justice or would be upheld in the courts of the appellant, to any sanction that was seen as unlawful or unjust. As long as UEFA do not transcend the law and fair and natural justice, they are on good ground, anything else makes them fair game for any club with the courage to pursue them.

And the Law of the land has enshrined this in statute, no. Very simples.

Can you define sectarian singing, despite numerous requests, the Law is unable to as of yet make any distinction. Maybe you could enlighten the Law, the Police and the greater body, as to that which constitutes sectarian singing.

Why would he need to exert pressure, the owner said more than the £5 million may be available if Alistair thinks it is needed.

The crux and the truth of the matter are two entirely different things. Breach of the peace is a peculiarity in Scots law, that it covers a wide range of perceived offences not covered by common law. It would certainly and has been proved in court to do so, cover alleged sectarianism, depending on the Sheriff of the day, convictions and acquittals are known outcomes, indeed one larger than life Sheriff, Sheriff Smith burst into a rousing rendition of The Sash from the karaoke position of his bench during a trial, deeming it in no way shape or form sectarian. The haste with which politicians tried to rush through something that is already covered by Scots statute, also their equal haste to push it back, when they realised it was a dog's dinner, leads me to believe that the unneeded proposed legislation will die a very quiet death. The crux of the matter is never show weakness in the face of your adversary, nor hand any advantage to them on a plate, something the authors of the latest statement have failed miserably to grasp.

Secret Sectarianism Posted on 14/07/2011 by johndcgow In the Franz Kafka novel The Trial, a man is prosecuted by an obscure authority that fails to state his crime. I haven’t read it since my Existentialist teenage years, but memory is of a bizarre, claustrophobic fiction showing the evils of faceless bureaucracy. Of-course I would be hysterical if I said this was in any way modern Scotland. We are still part of a wonderfully free society that should make us proud. But we are still not past condemning others with labels – with no thought given to what that label actually means. We now habitually call others “Sectarian” without telling them what they have done wrong and then refusing any defence. Labelling someone “sectarian” is the new fashion, yet most assume their personal definition of sectarianism is the actual definition. The truth is that there is no agreed definition, and that is a major part of the problem. And don’t assume that those in authority are even aware of this. When people like Margo MacDonald MSP say the difference between Hearts/Hibs fans and Rangers/Celtic fans is that you will never see a family who supports both Old Firm teams, is to become aware that those making the decisions are sometimes scarily ignorant. This ignorance and reliance on “Groupthink” can lead to a state where myth and lies becomes accepted as truth. The majority take the path of least resistance and rely on shallow statements and surface details, and never thinking of scratching below the surface. Over the past six months this has led to Politicians, Police and anti-Sectarian organisations so determined to stamp out sectarianism that they will flatly refuse to tell us what it is, or participate in any project to ease discrimination in society. It’s all slogans. In fact there is so little action to ease sectarian discrimination in Politics, Law, the Media, Housing and Employment that you could say no-one believes it exists in these fields. Instead, the sole focus is on singing songs. Yes, the great fight of sectarianism that has so many people outraged is of a few football fans. When First Minister Alex Salmond wants to publicise an anti-sectarian initiative he goes to a football stadium. I am sure many readers will know of FARE (Football against Racism in Europe) who in their determination to stop Sectarian chanting from Rangers fans refuse to tell Rangers fans what is sectarian. (A cynic might think they are uninterested in preventing sectarianism so Rangers can be punished again.) What would happen if Scotland fans were accused of racism by FARE and UEFA punished the SFA without telling anyone what was said? There would be uproar among the SFA, Media and Parliament. The reason why this hasn’t happened in Rangers’ case is that most in the aforementioned chattering classes are enjoying it. It’s human nature that we accept accusations against those we dislike without much care. The Rangers FC must take some of the blame for not stamping out certain songs among some Rangers fans quicker, and for being weak in not defending the vast majority of the overwhelmingly decent supporters from attacks by obsessed pro-IRA supporting “journalists”, who spend their existence on blogs and twitter making all the worlds ills the fault of a Glasgow football team. Deranged bloggers and murky UEFA bodies aside, we should expect different standards from our political class and Police. How is it possible that Central Police publicly state in a recent match between a Rangers XI and Stirling Albion, that Rangers fans sang sectarian songs, yet cannot tell us what the songs are or why there were no arrests? Why the secrecy and lack of action? Yet, for all the recent fuss, Central Police, like Strathclyde Police, are aware of and defend the right of openly pro-IRA bands to sell concert tickets to sing songs about Surface to Air Missiles downing British Helicopters in Northern Ireland; IRA snipers executing young British soldiers as they plead for their life and blatantly racist lyrics like, “The Brits will never leave us until they’re blown away.” The truth is that Scottish Police, like other British police forces, are highly political. There is no political capital in senior officers stopping songs about murdering British people for no reason other than they are British. Why go after pro-IRA bands that are supported at concerts by high-profile people like Billy McNeill, Bertie Auld and John Hartson and others who have been authorised in the past to make pro-IRA song videos at Celtic Park? They know the fallout would be immense. However, there is plenty of career-advancing opportunity in being strong in condemning sectarianism among a few hundred young Rangers fans. Sectarianism that was so bad there were no arrests and the Police can’t even tell the public what happened. Take a moment to let that sink in. The Police are so confident that an offence has taken place that they publicise it, but refuse to arrest anyone and wish to keep the offence a secret. The new “Secret Sectarianism” at work.

I prefer this statement. Mr Irvine added: “However, we are clear in our own minds that there are elements both in Glasgow and abroad, who are desperate to lay the blame for Scotland’s ills at the doors of Ibrox. “I would have thought these politically motivated critics might use their energies to analyse the chief problems in our society such as poor education, unemployment, drugs and youth crime. “All respectable Rangers supporters, and that is the vast majority, condemn bigotry and sectarianism but we will not be the whipping boys for society’s failings. “For too long, Rangers have taken it in the neck. It’s a new owner, new management, new rules. Craig wants a more robust challenge to ill-informed critics. He does not intend for Rangers to be pushed around.” Without naming names, Mr Irvine added: “I have a message for those who would denigrate Rangers: if you stop telling lies about us, we’ll stop telling the truth about you.”

Where are those who will defend our troops, the Poppies and the Crown, against the unfettered hatred of the anti-British, anti-Monarchy rantings of the Irish club, I don't hear them, the groin brigade are still in place feted as japesters and all round party people,while our great club, its traditions, being dismembered by our own, because paddy offended has beaten us at the publicity game. Denying anything is sectarian or bigoted at their end, seems they have got away with it, while we are assured our taken stance will be paddy offended's nemesis, in your dreams.

Alistair very wisely, is getting his excuses in early, just in case we don't manage to freshen things up.

The situation according to our owner is clear cut. "It's been quite widely reported that we'd spend £25 million over five years on the playing squad,” he said. “I need to have a discussion with Ally and see if some of that needs to be front ended. "It may be that we have to spend a little bit more next season if that's necessary. But I will have to speak with the future manager and make a decision on what is happening there.” http://www.rangers.c...2254024_2356462