jerfeelgood

now i know i proper shat myself....

i've genuinely just got the joke!!!! and now feel like a complete tit!!! good one!!! apologies for the paranoia, i'm a wee bit new to this!!!

bring it on I Can hold my chin up and take the flames... if one reads my posts impartially, i'm trying to discuss the issues... yes there may be a negative slant to them, but then again i'm not the only one one here posting regularly in a negative vein of thought... i've not espoused any partisan opinion (bar my feelings re football in general) and appreciate those who've engaged me in the the couple of threads i've been active in... some interesting points have been discussed. I've been asked to wave the flag to validate my opinions. something which would invalidate the position i'm trying to take. You cannot have a proper debate whitout a representative to defend every argument... if you feel that i'm violating any of the rules of the forum, or i'm being directly disrespectful of the institution that is Rangers Football Club please report me to a moderator citing an example of my disrespect or breach of forum rules... alternatively. you could just ignore me... or point me in the direction of a forum where these issues can de discussed openly in a rational manner with the representatives of the rangers fanbase... and for those of you accusing me of being a 'taig' i've already espoused my motivations... and they are not derivative of a parkhead agenda..... edit: from RM rules Baiting and accusing fellow members RangersMedia actively encourage debate and differing opinions. Baiting and bad mouthing of forum members will not be tolerated and offending content maybe removed. If you have a complaint about another member please private message a member of the RangersMedia team, or use the report button below their post. Accusing fellow members of being fans of other football clubs will not be tolerated, and the offending content may be removed or edited. If you suspect another forum member to be posing as a Rangers fan, please private message a member of the RangersMedia team, or use the report button.

if i am in error re (ii) i apologise and stand corrected as that directly affected (iii). I presumed after reading the VAS factsheet that the debtor (RFC) was liable for ongoing CVA payments not the shareholders (the green consortium). that the shareholders had to make an initial and substantial contribution toward the settling of the debt but that the debtor was liable for the conditions of the CVA... that was my interpretation... if i am in error i apologise...

if i'm interpretting the post re MLM Solutions up the thread... Do people realise that (i)a CVA may be binding for a number of years (ii) a condition of the CVA may involve rangers paying into this CVA monthly for the duration of the CVA (iii) that this will in turn reduce the clubs cashflow... A CVA won't be just the money Green puts in... It'll be that money plus monies to be realised from monthly payments over the period of the CVA... i.e. future Rangers Revenue....

okay then.... to do that I will have to explain some of my personal sporting ethics... firstly, is it a club or a business... A club is based upon a membership... who pay fees for that membership... who in return get voting rights as to how that club operates and who from the membership base represents the club in the board/committee... the club operates within the budget proscribed by it's revenue stream i.e. fees and revenue generated.... Rangers is not a club it is a business (owners, shareholders, directors, etc)... Now on a personal level as a sports person I have massive issues with the sport at every level... my biggest issue would be that I cannot condone any business model that consistently burns through shareholder equity in anticipation that there will be more and more and more to come (man city spending a £bn to become competitive in the EPL, see also chelsea, real madrid, barcelona etc etc...). if I as a supporter am to support a business model, I want it first and foremost to be fair. Why is it impossible for a small revenue positive business to rise in the sport? football has now risen to the point that in order to be competitive you must be wasteful... if you look at american baseball they went down that route and the sport stagnated and almost died until wage caps and various other regulatory tools were brought in to allow the smaller teams to become competitive... I consider blank chequebook owners to be the worst sort of financial doping. how can a sport be fair if the field is so stacked against those who try to operate fairly? which is why I have declared that I have no club... I also have a massive issue with professional foul play... diving, referee intimidation, etc which could be SO EASILY SORTED and which makes the game almost comedic in a sense but as that is not relevant to the issue at hand I will leave that to one side... So... I believe in this particular case Rangers have been presented with a golden oppurtunity to reinvigorate the sport in scotland if you would only willingly grab it with both hands and pull it to your bosom.... here is a chance to wipe the financial slate clean and create a model for european football clubs to follow... A business that is first and foremost a business i.e. profitable. you have the fanbase, the location, the grounds etc... you can start with a guaranteed revenue stream that does not need to be built from the ground up... So i'm rooting for a CVA that treats the creditors fairly and a business plan which is actually profitable and does not operate on presumed income from european competition and blank chequebook sugar daddies. I'm rooting for new owners who will hold their hands up publicly and acknowledge that mistakes were made. You have been given a golden chance here to pull out all the skeletons in a one-r for all to see, take your licks in public (accept with dignity and contrition the adjudication of your peers), but then, your dirty laundry having been washed and aired, come back into the fold and show people how it should and can be done. With this can Rangers attain the moral highground in every level of the sport, national and international. You are in the unique position to do be able to do this. If you did all this you would cut the legs out from underneath all the nay-sayers in the country nevermind the sport as a whole... You could show everyone that the SPORT can be fair at the top (financial fair play etc...) With your fanbase and guaranteed revenue stream you would rise quickly from whatever punishment was handed out, with respect and contrition would the adjudicators be more lenient and possibly be willing to discuss reversible sanctions (i.e. rangers voluntarily adopts a sanction on the condition that said sanction would be reduced if certain conditios were met). So under these conditions I would be in favour of a CVA and could support rangers for revolutionising the sport in scotland... this is your chance.... grab it! it's what i'm hoping for.... jer

yet you've not directly disagreed with my analysis.... If green has a viable business model for the company that HMRC can live with, i'll be one of the masses cheering him on... while not a football fan per se, I enjoy the old firm dynamic in scottish football and would genuinely like to see it preserved... in the current economic climate where every penny deducted from me in taxes squeezes my pocket, i'm not sure if i could abide HMRC writing off a massive tax debt without assurances going forward that this situation is unlikely to repeat itself.... you might forget that every penny HMRC writes off is a penny they have to get from everyone else in the system... every taxpayer in the country has a vested interest in what HMRC does with our taxes...

true but as uefa are the only international football administrator will to organise international club football competitions at the moment, and have all the cash and sponsors and tv deals, and any alternative competition would take donkeys years to get going and established, in this economic climate I don't see anyone making any serious attempt to pish on their parade. any attempt to set up a competition outwith FIFA/UEFA would be seen as a bolivian/che guevar style revolution in soccer and anyone seen to be participating would be ostracised... first you get the sugar.... then you get the money.... then you get the wiiiimen!!!!

I think they will only agree a CVA if it comes attached to a viable, profitable, business plan which will show that rangers will not struggle to pay tax again, and a business plan that is independent of european money. I would also expect that they will proscribe that hmrc auditors be allowed full access to books for a period of years going forward to ensure that rangers is remaining within their business model and plan. Yes it is in the HMRC and publics interest to agree to retrieve whatever funds they can, and it is in the publics interest to support a business plan that is generating profits and paying taxes.... ....but i'd imagine the business model is going to have to be a paradigm shifter for football... as posted elsewhere... so far no long term rationalisation of outgoings has been performed yet (most of squad retained and returning to full wages this week, no cutbacks in line with the fact that you now know for certain that there will be no european money this year. they will need to see at least a revenue neutral budget projection for the fiscal year which will show rangers well capable of paying it's PAYE/VAT/NIC contributions going forward.... failing that, it's definitely not in the publics interest to accept a CVA if rangers look likely to be at risk of failing to meet future HMRC payments...

i was trying to voice an adversarial thought process... i get the impression that hmrc will only approve a CVA if it's supported by a business model which will ensure that they won't end up toe to toe on this issue again... HMRC won't want to be fighting for taxes with rangers again in the future... all other creditors in the the deal have the oppurtunity post CVA to walk away from rangers... HMRC don't. HMRC will always be there. They will be the first creditor rangers has to deal with post CVA or NewCo. I'd imagine they'll want to see a business plan before approving the CVA and rest assured if they do accept the CVA it will come with major strings re finance auditing powers for the foreseeable future... i'm not saying they won't accept the CVA.... just that it will probably come with strings... hmrc CVA and VAS guidelines http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/helpsheets/vas-factsheet.pdf

bloody murdoch! i've seen ebt's called everything today but an 'electronic benefit transfer' is fairly wide of the mark!

I agree with everything you're saying... but then that implies that the corporate governance structure of rangers is quite loose. If a brand new chairman can walk in the door and start liberating assets (cash/aresenal shares) without raising an uproar within the corporation itself.... or does he have a chequebook in his desk? i thought company accounting practices had to be more transparent than that? In fact my experience with committees has always been dual signatories to prevent these exact problems arising.... edit: do you ever feel he got away with certain things because he was still in his honeymoon period?

cool... all knowledge i didn't have before.... so the situation then becomes. If i voluntarily join a club, or association, or sign up for a competition am I not bound by the rules of that club/association/competition? I can't make the argument that I didn't know... presumably sion had made their application in march for a uefa license for the following year thence signing up to the rules of the competition... on the basis of their season finish they were invited to play in european competition... they broke the rules of the competition... thence the problem... okay leaving FIFA in a sticky legal situation re legal sense.... now here's the crux... FIFA are not compelled to invite switzerland to international competitions, as UEFA are not compelled to invite clubs to european competitions... this is where they have the power. they control the competition and entries to that competition... so no they could not stop sion playing it's players, but they can withdraw all invitations to future competitions... they can expel competitors who aren't observing the rules. they are within their rights to do this. you are within your rights to take them to court if you feel that the rules of the competition are unjust... or are am i wrong? i'm not saying it's perfect but c'est la vie...

as i've said... this issue doesn't just affect rangers fans, or football fans... it has the potential to sprawl out into other mainstream sports.... people from other sports groups are observing... i don't feel yet that i've espoused any partisan opinion, just opened up the floor to debate... feel free not to engage me... but i digress...

is it not illegal for a journo to misrepresent themselves?