Murty vs Walter

[The Dude 20,026]

5 minutes ago, cushynumber said:

I think all managers need luck in the short term, in order to get something established for the long term. If you dont get that luck in the short term, then - and i dont care who you are - you will be out of a job.

Absolutely agree. Having a reputation will help you so far but without a wee bit of luck it proves worthless in the end.  

[Courtyard Bear 41,357]

7 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Aren't you also banging away on your keyboard?

No I’m gently tapping my phone ??

[BridgeIsBlue 66,592]

5 minutes ago, Real Ranger said:

So SD aren't too bad then, they only bumped the club for a couple of years.

???

I like how you ignored the Daily Record part. 

Funny that actually. 

[theclothmonster 1,704]

1 minute ago, The Dude said:

Motherwell and St Mirren?

Dundee are a traditional diddy team?

Motherwell and St Mirren are yes, that's 2 out of 6 losses that were against diddy teams. All 6 of Murty's losses have been against diddy teams, yes Dundee are a diddy team and at the time of our last loss were at the bottom without a win. I see you just skipped out the part where you accused me of making a point I didn't make, funnily enough your employers seem to have difficulty with the truth and retracting false statements when called out too.

[Real Ranger 3,193]

4 minutes ago, theclothmonster said:

No another poster did not insist that, go back and read the question I asked. Has a Rangers manager ever had such a poor run against diddy teams? That was the question I asked, the point is Murty has a real problem with playing against teams that park the bus and he hasn't found an answer to it. Walter lost to Hearts, Aberdeen, Sparta Prague and Hibs in his 6 losses, these are not traditional diddy teams. Murty has lost to Dundee x2, ICT, Hamilton, St J and Kilmarnock in such a short space of time and has struggled in pretty much all the other games against the lesser teams. 

If you are going poo poo the point I was making that's fine but at least poo poo the actual point and quote I was making and not one that just suits your agenda.

It's true that his record against the diddy teams is very poor but to balance that out, his record against the bigger teams has been very good and this has been achieved with one of the weakest Rangers squads any Rangers manager has inherited.

[cushynumber 25,178]

1 minute ago, Real Ranger said:

It's true that his record against the diddy teams is very poor but to balance that out, his record against the bigger teams has been very good and this has been achieved with one of the weakest Rangers squads any Rangers manager has inherited.

it begs the question as to whether he is capable of motivating the team or the players are just getting themselves up for the bigger games.

[The Dude 20,026]

4 minutes ago, Courtyard Bear said:

No I’m gently tapping my phone ??

That's handy. Funnily enough, given how many words I type in a week, banging away on my keyboard would see me needing a new laptop every few weeks.

[KeyserSoze 14,513]

I think it’s difficult to compare managers as there’s too many variables. Era, money, opposition and skill set of squads. 

But it’s nice to think Murty may come good from rookie to competent manager. I hope so

[theclothmonster 1,704]

1 minute ago, Real Ranger said:

It's true that his record against the diddy teams is very poor but to balance that out, his record against the bigger teams has been very good and this has been achieved with one of the weakest Rangers squads any Rangers manager has inherited.

Yes Murty does has a very good record against the bigger sides, far better than Pedro and Warburton. 

[Reformation Bear 6,453]

In the end, however long or short the journey, its results that matter.    Enough league wins, avoidance of losing games that should be won and demonstration of a proper competitive challenge for the title and the SC during the rest of this season will. imo, be better benchmarks for measuring Murty.   

Walter seems to me to be have been fundamentally better placed to step into first team management.   Having sat under the managerial style - and success - of Jim McLean at DU Walter, imo, learned some proper and hard lessons on the pathway to first team management.  Can the same be said about the quality of mentoring and guidance Murty has had?   I don't believe so.  

Smith was hard and could get pretty angry when he needed to, and could enforce discipline.  Has Murty got that sort of strength of leadership and character in his locker?  I don't detect it.  I detect a Warburton-like willingness to let players have a right old rant and then somehow try to make sense of it and turn it into something useful.   We were well used to hearing Warburton talk about frank exchanges of views in the dressing room or on the training pitch (remember the Barton episode that seemed to me to get right out of managerial control very quickly).   Now we hear Murty allowed free rein to a dressing room row which then was seemingly a motivation for the second half yesterday.   So he may argue that that style worked.   It did on that occasion but is that really effective, experienced managerial leadership or did he just get lucky.   Wou;d I wonder, a Walter or a Souness or a Wallace have allowed that sort of player-argument and then try to recover it.......or would they have imposed themselves and led from the front?  Who knows for sure.......but I suspect that like Warburton, Murty is a more of an analyst who tries to react to things than a leader leading from the front and galvanising in the process.

Walter came through the ranks and learned his managerial trade and became ready for a bigger challenge when that challenge arrived.    Murty is a coach who was tootling along in the world of development team coaching and at the early stages of a journey that might have led to first team management at a lower club and then progressing up the ranks if he could demonstrate managerial prowess.    Propelling him into the job of managing Rangers but bypassing the managerial apprenticeship pathway is, imo, one almighty risk for the Club.   A risk which competently led companies would not take when making appointments vital to the success of the company.    

In the end results will matter.   In the end he may carry enough skill and luck to press his claim to be the manager after this season ends.   Maybe Jimmy Nicholl can bring enough nous, influence and sheer managerial know-how to prop Murty up while he learns the trade.   There is, imo, a very big difference between Walter learning under experienced successful management and as a result becoming ready to take on a big challenge, and Murty being propped up by Jimmy Nicholl in the hopes that he can learn enough in short order to make a proper fist of the Rangers job.   

But at the end of the season, if Murty lasts that long, it'll be the results that carry him or result in him being ditched or result in him realising that the seat he occupies requires considerably more managerial experience than he has or ca n acquire in the short term.   Murty remains imo a non-manager who has become manager even though he has nowhere near enough by way of learning and experience credentials to do a proper job of being the manager of Rangers. 

[The Dude 20,026]

Just now, KeyserSoze said:

I think it’s difficult to compare managers as there’s too many variables. Era, money, opposition and skill set of squads. 

But it’s nice to think Murty may come good from rookie to competent manager. I hope so

There are a huge amount of variables but I don't think it's unfair that we are in a much closer position to the rest in Scottish football than we were when Walter took the reins. Barring a handful of the games, we'd won three-in-a-row and were on the brink of a fourth when he took the job

[Real Ranger 3,193]

2 minutes ago, BridgeIsBlue said:

I like how you ignored the Daily Record part. 

Funny that actually. 

Wouldn't buy the rag for the reasons you stated.

You seem to have double standards though when it comes to organisations hurting Rangers.

Funny that actually.

[cushynumber 25,178]

I once banged my keyboard. Quite enjoyed it to be honest.

[The Dude 20,026]

1 minute ago, Reformation Bear said:

In the end, however long or short the journey, its results that matter.    Enough league wins, avoidance of losing games that should be won and demonstration of a proper competitive challenge for the title and the SC during the rest of this season will. imo, be better benchmarks for measuring Murty.   

Walter seems to me to be have been fundamentally better placed to step into first team management.   Having sat under the managerial style - and success - of Jim McLean at DU Walter, imo, learned some proper and hard lessons on the pathway to first team management.  Can the same be said about the quality of mentoring and guidance Murty has had?   I don't believe so.  

Smith was hard and could get pretty angry when he needed to, and could enforce discipline.  Has Murty got that sort of strength of leadership and character in his locker?  I don't detect it.  I detect a Warburton-like willingness to let players have a right old rant and then somehow try to make sense of it and turn it into something useful.   We were well used to hearing Warburton talk about frank exchanges of views in the dressing room or on the training pitch (remember the Barton episode that seemed to me to get right out of managerial control very quickly).   Now we hear Murty allowed free rein to a dressing room row which then was seemingly a motivation for the second half yesterday.   So he may argue that that style worked.   It did on that occasion but is that really effective, experienced managerial leadership or did he just get lucky.   Wou;d I wonder, a Walter or a Souness or a Wallace have allowed that sort of player-argument and then try to recover it.......or would they have imposed themselves and led from the front?  Who knows for sure.......but I suspect that like Warburton, Murty is a more of an analyst who tries to react to things than a leader leading from the front and galvanising in the process.

Walter came through the ranks and learned his managerial trade and became ready for a bigger challenge when that challenge arrived.    Murty is a coach who was tootling along in the world of development team coaching and at the early stages of a journey that might have led to first team management at a lower club and then progressing up the ranks if he could demonstrate managerial prowess.    Propelling him into the job of managing Rangers but bypassing the managerial apprenticeship pathway is, imo, one almighty risk for the Club.   A risk which competently led companies would not take when making appointments vital to the success of the company.    

In the end results will matter.   In the end he may carry enough skill and luck to press his claim to be the manager after this season ends.   Maybe Jimmy Nicholl can bring enough nous, influence and sheer managerial know-how to prop Murty up while he learns the trade.   There is, imo, a very big difference between Walter learning under experienced successful management and as a result becoming ready to take on a big challenge, and Murty being propped up by Jimmy Nicholl in the hopes that he can learn enough in short order to make a proper fist of the Rangers job.   

But at the end of the season, if Murty lasts that long, it'll be the results that carry him or result in him being ditched or result in him realising that the seat he occupies requires considerably more managerial experience than he has or ca n acquire in the short term.   Murty remains imo a non-manager who has become manager even though he has nowhere near enough by way of learning and experience credentials to do a proper job of being the manager of Rangers. 

Despite all that, the one thing that matters (as you say in your opening line) is results. If Murty wins against Aberdeen and Fraserburgh he'll have had the same results in his opening 20 games as Walter did,

[Bronzy 26,085]

1 minute ago, cushynumber said:

I once banged my keyboard. Quite enjoyed it to be honest.

I once banged your mother. Didn't enjoy it to be honest.

[The Dude 20,026]

2 minutes ago, Real Ranger said:

Wouldn't buy the rag for the reasons you stated.

You seem to have double standards though when it comes to organisations hurting Rangers.

Funny that actually.

It's a common thing. Someone last night quoted the BBC to make a point about the Record.

[cushynumber 25,178]

Just now, Bronzy said:

I once banged your mother. Didn't enjoy it to be honest.

My mother died in June of Lung cancer. Its my birthday tomorrow and this will be the first I have had without her. Well done you.

[Real Ranger 3,193]

5 minutes ago, cushynumber said:

it begs the question as to whether he is capable of motivating the team or the players are just getting themselves up for the bigger games.

Does make you wonder why we've dropped so many points to the smaller teams but it's more or less the same players that couldn't get themselves up for the bigger teams before Murty.

 

[Bronzy 26,085]

1 minute ago, cushynumber said:

My mother died in June of Lung cancer. Its my birthday tomorrow and this will be the first I have had without her. Well done you.

I'm sorry to hear that, please don't report me to the mods.

[Cadman 342]

In my opinion the comparison between Smith and Murty is unrealistic.  Smith inherited a successful side that he had already been involved with for a number of seasons, he already knew the players and had a very good idea of their strengths and weaknesses. Murty, on the other hand, had very little knowledge of the players available to him in his first stint and also what he has available to him now. Smith also had a faitly substantial transfer budget available to him whereas Murty, either through the board being skint or an unwillingness to fund an interim manager, will not have that luxury.

[JCDBigBear 10,805]

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

This came up in another thread but think it's probably worthy of its own.

One of the big complaints is his lack of experience and dropping unnecessary points. Nobody will argue we shouldn't have done better in some of the games we've lost so far under Murty but as an inexperienced manager, these kind of things happen as you're finding your feet.

So I looked at another manager's record when he took the reins despite having never been a first-team boss in his own right and was really surprised by what I found.

If Murty wins his next two games (Fraserburgh & Aberdeen) he'll have an identical record to Walter Smith after 20 games as Rangers manager.

 

Comparing Murty to Walter is like comparing apples to bananas.   When Walter was in charge at first Scottish football was in far better shape with teams being much more evenly matched.   Walter commanded respect and everyone pulled together.  We do not have that with Murty.

[Reformation Bear 6,453]

2 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Despite all that, the one thing that matters (as you say in your opening line) is results. If Murty wins against Aberdeen and Fraserburgh he'll have had the same results in his opening 20 games as Walter did,

We'll see soon enough when these games come around.   In taking charge of Rangers Walter could draw on extensive learning experience working for a successful manager and it'd be a case of tapping into that experience to develop solutions that would work for Rangers.    And so he did as his record at Rangers proves.    Murty does not, imo,  have even remotely comparable experience.     Walter had hard won, battle scarred experience earned over good time at a successful club to draw on, plus his own strength of character.   Murty does not, imo, have that nor has the quality of hard-edged leadership needed to do a proper job at Rangers.   But he may get lucky, especially with Jimmy N prodding him along     

[BridgeIsBlue 66,592]

12 minutes ago, Real Ranger said:

You seem to have double standards though when it comes to organisations hurting Rangers.

And how did you get to that conclusion? 

[theclothmonster 1,704]

8 minutes ago, The Dude said:

It's a common thing. Someone last night quoted the BBC to make a point about the Record.

Is it common for you to make a smug post falsely accusing someone and then just completely ignore it when called out?

[slimjim1690 4,534]

Can we come back to this after the next 20 games please.