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Murty wants to emulate Southampton model


NeoGeo7

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5 minutes ago, plumbGER said:

One of the main reasons we won't topple them is the difference in wage outgoings at both clubs, it's massive.

Plus they can bring a 4 million pounds player off the bench against us, we won't compete until we try to at least be competitive with wages and squad size.

Look at the wages we have had sitting about doing fuck all recently, Alves/Niko/Rossiter/Pena/Herrera/Dorrans, one thing spending the money but it has to be on the right players.

I would have good wages going on first team starters and have them complimented with young hungry players who have good career goals, but like i say it's not easy to run a club.

Who do you think we should be looking at given our current cash circumstances?

I don’t disagree which is why we have to get it nailed and spend wisely - your Jones and Docherty’s of the world are not the answer 

regarding your question at the end check my reply on this thread about half an hour ago was to either orangeclement or Graeme 4

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13 minutes ago, K.A.I said:

I don’t disagree which is why we have to get it nailed and spend wisely - your Jones and Docherty’s of the world are not the answer 

regarding your question at the end check my reply on this thread about half an hour ago was to either orangeclement or Graeme 4

As i said, i am not sure about Docherty and would be lying if i said he jumped out at me and impressed me every time i seen Hamilton but his stats are good and people who have watched him seem to rate him.

Jones, i think would have been a much better option for down our left than shunting Windass out there because he was a man down out there, i have been really impressed with him every time i have seen him for Killie, even against the beggars. Not sure the boy would want to come and play second fiddle to Murphy but would be a good option to have imo.

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It's a long post and I'm not in favour of this black box approach so don't read on if you'd rather keep to short posts.        

So it seems the latest blue sky thinking at Ibrox is to make and use a black box.   Murty declares his faith and admiration for the Southampton black box approach, judges it to be a fantastic thing and hey presto we're off down the black box route to acquiring football players.

A bit like painting by numbers it seems to me.   Provide all the right inputs into the black box at the right time, let the recruitment team loose with all the parameters and let them come up with some names that fit the parameters then hey presto go get whichever of the names is willing to come to Rangers and who is affordable.   The formulaic approach to developing and operating a football side.   The hope that the black box will produce top performing valuable football diamonds instead of failing and relatively low value footballer dungheaps.

The lurch is away from hunting down sufficiently gifted, ready to play in first team and make an impact, affordable players to one of source when they are cheap to acquire, develop and sell on for good fees, then repeat the process and keep on repeating it.   

Can it work at Rangers?   I can't say it won't if - and here is the big 'if' - it is given enough time (a long time - many seasons) but I'm far from convinced this model is the right model at this time for Rangers.    

Where in the article does Murty say this is designed to get Rangers a title winning side as fast as possible?  It doesn't.   The unstated inference - probably only because its about Rangers and therefore taken for granted by him and Allen - is that of course Rangers need to get players who can win a title quickly.    But its not stated is it.  What is stated quite clearly is Murty's favouring of a model where Rangers eventually command very good fees for selling players.   That's what will pass for success under this model.  

The absence of a firm up front declaration that what is needed at Ibrox is players coming in who win titles and cups.   That, imo, is profoundly significant and silence on this from him should not be taken for granted that that sort of success is inherent in the job.   The more the matter of producing a title winning side is marginalised or side-stepped or just plain not spoken about in favour of some black box mystical approach of hoping that the sum of the parameter parts fed into the model somehow makes for a whole complete title-winning team, the more I worry about the wisdom of appointing Murty.  

Southampton don't have a fiercely burning need to win the EPL or to build on the sort of successful history Rangers has or to compete with a rival who is winning title after title.   The model of making a tidy margin on selling on players to help protect their stay in the EPL is understandable at that club.  We have titles to win, and the other lot to knock off the perch, and CL football to be returned to Ibrox.    If people think a black box solution is going to deliver that anytime soon then they have way more optimism about Murty than I have.

Would we be placing anywhere near the same amount of faith in black box solutions if we had appointed a credible, experienced football manager with managerial know-how, nous and decisive leadership?    I don't know for sure but I doubt it.   I rather think a far better equipped and experienced manager may have been far more focussed on what he needed to do, and what players he needs to get to win the title in quick order.   That would be success.   What we are buying from a board via Murty, Allen and their black box is a watering down of the definition of success for Rangers of title ambition to be replaced by success meaning we are doing a Scottish Southampton by shifting players on in due course for good fees.  

I'm sorry.  I'm genuinely sorry.  But I have no faith in black boxes as a primary tool for finding players who are somehow fitted together to produce a side that wins football titles. I regard it as a speculative gesture dressed up as being a top class strategy for Rangers to follow and dressed up as being an innovation we cannot do without.    I remain very wary of a manger and DOF who want to rely so heavily on a painting by numbers approach to finding the right players.   I see it as a distraction and deflection away from the manager's own substantial lack of direct, relevant managerial experience and as a means of looking to dilute the expectation of the Support for quick title success.  

Time will tell if I am wrong or too harsh on this.   Time or a different, better, more experienced manager arrives in due course and decides that to get the success we need means following a less formulaic approach to producing a title winning side.   

 

 

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8 hours ago, Thewhitesettler said:

We need to be signing players that'll do the job for us, and not worry about any sell on value.

If someone comes along that does well enough to be sold on for a substantial profit, then so be it, but don't go looking for players that fit that bill all the time.

We can look to the future when our present squad are winning things.

We need to doing both, the days of us splashing out on a player without having to look at his sell on value are gone. 

We are that skint we can’t even buy Jamie Murphy until we all pony up the ST money. 

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See the mer a sit here under ma own personal black cloud the mer a think that anybody who thinks The Rangers anything should be modelled oan Southampton anything, the mer a think that person should be naewhere near The Rangers anything especially the managers seat ! 

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13 minutes ago, Reformation Bear said:

It's a long post and I'm not in favour of this black box approach so don't read on if you'd rather keep to short posts.        

So it seems the latest blue sky thinking at Ibrox is to make and use a black box.   Murty declares his faith and admiration for the Southampton black box approach, judges it to be a fantastic thing and hey presto we're off down the black box route to acquiring football players.

A bit like painting by numbers it seems to me.   Provide all the right inputs into the black box at the right time, let the recruitment team loose with all the parameters and let them come up with some names that fit the parameters then hey presto go get whichever of the names is willing to come to Rangers and who is affordable.   The formulaic approach to developing and operating a football side.   The hope that the black box will produce top performing valuable football diamonds instead of failing and relatively low value footballer dungheaps.

The lurch is away from hunting down sufficiently gifted, ready to play in first team and make an impact, affordable players to one of source when they are cheap to acquire, develop and sell on for good fees, then repeat the process and keep on repeating it.   

Can it work at Rangers?   I can't say it won't if - and here is the big 'if' - it is given enough time (a long time - many seasons) but I'm far from convinced this model is the right model at this time for Rangers.    

Where in the article does Murty say this is designed to get Rangers a title winning side as fast as possible?  It doesn't.   The unstated inference - probably only because its about Rangers and therefore taken for granted by him and Allen - is that of course Rangers need to get players who can win a title quickly.    But its not stated is it.  What is stated quite clearly is Murty's favouring of a model where Rangers eventually command very good fees for selling players.   That's what will pass for success under this model.  

The absence of a firm up front declaration that what is needed at Ibrox is players coming in who win titles and cups.   That, imo, is profoundly significant and silence on this from him should not be taken for granted that that sort of success is inherent in the job.   The more the matter of producing a title winning side is marginalised or side-stepped or just plain not spoken about in favour of some black box mystical approach of hoping that the sum of the parameter parts fed into the model somehow makes for a whole complete title-winning team, the more I worry about the wisdom of appointing Murty.  

Southampton don't have a fiercely burning need to win the EPL or to build on the sort of successful history Rangers has or to compete with a rival who is winning title after title.   The model of making a tidy margin on selling on players to help protect their stay in the EPL is understandable at that club.  We have titles to win, and the other lot to knock off the perch, and CL football to be returned to Ibrox.    If people think a black box solution is going to deliver that anytime soon then they have way more optimism about Murty than I have.

Would we be placing anywhere near the same amount of faith in black box solutions if we had appointed a credible, experienced football manager with managerial know-how, nous and decisive leadership?    I don't know for sure but I doubt it.   I rather think a far better equipped and experienced manager may have been far more focussed on what he needed to do, and what players he needs to get to win the title in quick order.   That would be success.   What we are buying from a board via Murty, Allen and their black box is a watering down of the definition of success for Rangers of title ambition to be replaced by success meaning we are doing a Scottish Southampton by shifting players on in due course for good fees.  

I'm sorry.  I'm genuinely sorry.  But I have no faith in black boxes as a primary tool for finding players who are somehow fitted together to produce a side that wins football titles. I regard it as a speculative gesture dressed up as being a top class strategy for Rangers to follow and dressed up as being an innovation we cannot do without.    I remain very wary of a manger and DOF who want to rely so heavily on a painting by numbers approach to finding the right players.   I see it as a distraction and deflection away from the manager's own substantial lack of direct, relevant managerial experience and as a means of looking to dilute the expectation of the Support for quick title success.  

Time will tell if I am wrong or too harsh on this.   Time or a different, better, more experienced manager arrives in due course and decides that to get the success we need means following a less formulaic approach to producing a title winning side.   

 

 

We can’t afford to just buy on the chance a player will work. 

We need to try something that will cut the odds in our favour of a signing working and that we can sell him on a good profit. I know this can take a long time to get right but what’s the alternative. We are skint and that isn’t changing anytime soon, so we need to try something different from just ripping up a squad every time a new manager comes in. Which these days as we have seen can be very quickly. 

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Just MW nonsense that. 

Ive argued about this in the Longstaff thread in the transfer section. 

Signing young players on the fringes on their team in the hope they mature into the million pound footballer has bit us on the arse to the tune of millions when Warburton done it. 

There are exceptions of course and I’m not saying do not ever sign a young player. Docherty for example is worth a punt as he’s played over 100 games already and contributes assists and goals from the midfield and is a Rangers fan.

Goss, Longstaff etc will just be another in the long list of young players on the footballing scrap heap who just aren’t good enough to play for us. Whose bright idea was it to sign a 22 year old who has 6 professional games under his belt ffs?

Dodoo, Crooks, Forrester, Kiernan, Nemane etc the list goes on and on. 

Now it’d be different if we were challenging for the league and had already added quality additions to a very strong 18, however the reality is were going through yet another cycle due to mismanagement and the punt and hope on young players just isn’t going to cut it. A couple will come of eventually, you could argue Windass is now worth a couple of million after signing for a few hundred k, the reality is 8/10 don’t come off. 

We need players who will instantly walk into the first team and deal with the expectations and challenge others around them for their positions. We do not need anymore experiments and being a trial facility for other clubs to see if their player will turn out good. 

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1 minute ago, Courtyard Bear said:

We can’t afford to just buy on the chance a player will work. 

We need to try something that will cut the odds in our favour of a signing working and that we can sell him on a good profit. I know this can take a long time to get right but what’s the alternative. We are skint and that isn’t changing anytime soon, so we need to try something different from just ripping up a squad every time a new manager comes in. Which these days as we have seen can be very quickly. 

The black box formulaic approach could possibly work given enough time.    I just don't see success in the form of title being won happening anytime even reasonably soon under that model and it seems to me its primary benefit is to create added value for the club by way of decent transfer fees in due course.   Fine if we are happy to just middle along in that mode for a long time to come before somehow one day, under the right sort of real football management a manager arrives that transforms this into a title winning side.    I still think we needed to have appointed a properly experienced football manager whose track record is one of exercising good judgement in picking players and creating properly competitive teams.   I know that comes at a price - a price the board was not willing to pay at this time.  But imo getting a far better manager in was central to producing a properly competitive team   I just see this new and now emerging dependency on a black box approach to title winning as a fad, a distraction and an attempt to compensate for a profound lack of direct relevant management experience.    

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3 minutes ago, Reformation Bear said:

The black box formulaic approach could possibly work given enough time.    I just don't see success in the form of title being won happening anytime even reasonably soon under that model and it seems to me its primary benefit is to create added value for the club by way of decent transfer fees in due course.   Fine if we are happy to just middle along in that mode for a long time to come before somehow one day, under the right sort of real football management a manager arrives that transforms this into a title winning side.    I still think we needed to have appointed a properly experienced football manager whose track record is one of exercising good judgement in picking players and creating properly competitive teams.   I know that comes at a price - a price the board was not willing to pay at this time.  But imo getting a far better manager in was central to producing a properly competitive team   I just see this new and now emerging dependency on a black box approach to title winning as a fad, a distraction and an attempt to compensate for a profound lack of direct relevant management experience.    

I agree it’s a way of raisImg revenue for the club. But we have to look at that side, we simply don’t have the money to just buy us a league title. 

We have to try something to try and make the club profitable. 

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2 hours ago, KeyserSoze said:

Shoosh you don’t mention the “T” word on here.

It better work IMMEDIATELY or gtf, fraud, cunt etc....

Sorry I keep forgetting that! I’ll be getting called a fraud for ‘accepting’  2nd etc etc etc thanks for helping 

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9 hours ago, K.A.I said:

Haha wrong on so many levels - I’ve said loads what I’d suggest - for every 3 O’Hallorans we could afford a Dembele of our own instead of stock piling average players who give us zero return - it’s sbout using the budget wisely 

wrong again on Morelos as I said endless times when we signed him in the summer I was delighted - there’s plenty quotes from me to that effect if you want to use the search function and lastly if you really are such an avid reader of my posts then you wouldn’t need to ask me as I’ve answered it loads but there’s certain markets I’d scout Russia, Serbia, Croatia, Slovakia, Slovenia etc watch those international teams or teams from them countries in Europa league and they can school our teams and the Scottish team 

outwith that I don’t have all the answers but I know for sure what isn’t the answer in regards to winning a title from celtic and that’s signing the jones and Docherty’s of this world some people have alarmingly short memories and incredibly nieve 

Fair play at least you give an honest answer I suppose.

 I feel the problem with scouting those regions is it mostly filled with non EU players as most of the good prospects are already snapped up by the big eastern European clubs and the big clubs in Europe.  

Futhermore due to the cash in the game now I think it's rare your gonna find that cheap gem as they know they can whore players to average clubs in England .

I feel we are at least 3-5 years from signing players I would expect us to be signing.

 

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By not using some sort of system for scouting/selecting players we'll just continue on a downward costly spiral of buying and hoping players work out.

For me we should be building a Rangers squad strong enough to get back to the top in Scotland,then the curtains on the shop window will begin to open.Decent runs in the CL/Europa will open the curtains further.

Why should we expect loyalty and determination from any player if we're going to treat them as part of a meat market wherein the only value they are seen by us is in their monetary worth/sell on value.

Success breeds success, the more highly rated we are,the more value a player will have.So imo buy to make Rangers succeed and if decent transfer sales follow,then well and good.

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On 06/01/2018 at 20:40, danger ranger said:

Doesn't every club want the Southampton model FFs, the biggest problem we have is getting the right people on board, just look at the shite we brought in the summer.

They do and The Southampton model is going so well that they could even get relegated! Prue brilliance football is about winning not selling players for a profit that’s merely a byproduct - surely?

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8 hours ago, Blumhoilann said:

By not using some sort of system for scouting/selecting players we'll just continue on a downward costly spiral of buying and hoping players work out.

For me we should be building a Rangers squad strong enough to get back to the top in Scotland,then the curtains on the shop window will begin to open.Decent runs in the CL/Europa will open the curtains further.

Why should we expect loyalty and determination from any player if we're going to treat them as part of a meat market wherein the only value they are seen by us is in their monetary worth/sell on value.

Success breeds success, the more highly rated we are,the more value a player will have.So imo buy to make Rangers succeed and if decent transfer sales follow,then well and good.

We don't need to breed loyalty.

We become a genuine stepping stone to the riches of the EPL and the players will be more than happy being treated like an asset as they'll be :winnings:.

I fully agree re the success breeding success and Europe being huge for us.

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11 hours ago, Blumhoilann said:

Why should we expect loyalty and determination from any player if we're going to treat them as part of a meat market wherein the only value they are seen by us is in their monetary worth/sell on value. 

Because we would be developing them into a better player who could move to a higher standard league, represent their country, earn more money etc. 

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