Old Club/New Club - An update

[TheLawMan 6,240]

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sqf5he?new_post=true

 

I do like to keep this up to date and I have found 2 new and crucial pieces of evidence to show after 54 titles, we're still going strong.

Please share far and wide folks.

1) The first reference I should point to is that HM Revenue and Customs, during the sale process, released the following statement.

"A liquidation provides the best opportunity to protect taxpayers, by allowing the potential investigation and pursuit of possible claims against those responsible for the company’s financial affairs in recent years. A CVA would restrict the scope of such action. Moreover the liquidation route does not prejudice the proposed sale of the club. This sale can take place either through a CVA or a liquidation.

So the sale is not being undermined, it simply takes a different route. Liquidation will enable a sale of the football assets to be made to a new company, thereby ensuring that football will continue at Ibrox. It also means that the new company will be free from claims or litigation in a way which would not be achievable with a CVA. Rangers can make a fresh start."

The football assets being sold to another company allows the club to continue playing as is at Ibrox. The statement can be found in the UK Tax Gov archives here:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20130502100322/http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/news/Rangers.htm

2) celtic fans complained to the Advertising Standards Agency about how the club was advertising. The advert claimed that Rangers were the “most successful club” and this was the point of the complaint.

The ASA ruled on this both in an initial finding and on appeal and wrote the following:

“Whilst the ASA acknowledged that Newco had not taken on all of the debts and liabilities of Oldco when it purchased its assets and that that would normally preclude a business from trading on the reputation of a liquidated predecessor company, we noted, having read its report in full, that both an Independent Commission appointed by the SPL and the ECA had reached the conclusion that the football club RFC was a recognisable entity in its own right, and that it had continued in existence despite being transferred to another owner and operator. We consulted with UEFA, which explained that its rules allowed for the recognition of the “sporting continuity” of a club’s match record, even if that club’s corporate structure had changed. We also consulted with the SFA, which confirmed that its definition of a football “club” varied depending on context, and could sometimes refer to an entity separate from the club’s corporate owner. The SFA further pointed out that, following RFC’s transfer to a new corporate owner, Newco did not take a new membership of the Scottish FA but rather that the previous membership was transferred across to them so they could continue as the same member of the Scottish FA. We considered that consumers would understand that the claim in question related to the football club rather than to its owner and operator and we therefore concluded that it was not misleading for the ad to make reference to RFC's history, which was separate to that of Newco.”

“given RFC's history, the claim "Scotland's most successful club" was valid and would not mislead.”

This can be found here:

https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/the-Rangers-football-club-ltd-a13-224406.html

It is very clear from the above the ASA in the UK determined through thorough investigation that Rangers FC were still the same club.

3) Moving on to Right Honorable Lord Nimmo Smith who during an investigation into Rangers FC use of tax schemes. The issue put to the Law Lord was this:

“Paragraphs 2 and 6 of the list of preliminary issues advance essentially the same argument, which is that on 14 June 2012, when the business and assets of Oldco were purchased and transferred to Newco, Rangers FC ceased to be a Club as defined in the Rules, and is accordingly not subject to the jurisdiction of the SPL, and thus of this Commission, in relation to any breach or breaches of the Rules committed in the period prior to that date. “

His response, in findings, concluded this:

“While it no doubt depends on individual circumstances what exactly is comprised in the undertaking of any particular Club, it would at the least comprise its name, the contracts with its players, its manager and other staff, and its ground, even though these may change from time to time. In common speech a Club is treated as a recognisable entity which is capable of being owned and operated, and which continues in existence despite its transfer to another owner and operator.”

“While there can be no question of subjecting the new owner and operator to sanctions, there are sanctions which could be imposed in terms of the Rules which are capable of affecting the Club as a continuing entity (even though not an entity with legal personality), and which thus might affect the interest of the new owner and operator in it.” 

Lord Nimmo Smith is a top Law Lord with 40 years experience and this was his summary on the topic in a legal enquiry for the SPL who were the owners of the Football League Rangers played in at the time. He clearly states the club is a continuing entity in his legal and unchallenged findings.

This can be found here:

https://spfl.co.uk/news/article/commission-reasons-for-september-12-decision-2012-09-20/mediaassets/doc/SPL Commission reasons for decision of 12 September 2012.pdf

4) Next up in the quest of understanding if the club is the same or not was the Chief Executive of the Scottish Professional Football League. Essentially this is the guy at the very top of the tree in The football League organisation and he said the following:

“In terms of the question about old club, new club, that was settled very much by the Lord 
Nimmo Smith commission that was put together by the SPL to look at EBT payments at that time. The decision, very clearly from the commission, was that the club is the same, the club continues, albeit it is owned by a new company, but the club is the same.”

“The member club is the entity that participates in our league and we have 42 member clubs. Those clubs may be owned by a company, sometimes it’s a Private Limited Company, sometimes it’s a PLC, but ultimately, the company is a legal entity in its own right, which owns a member club that participates in the league. It’s the same club.”

You can read his statement in the local press here:

http://www.BOYCOTT THIS LINK/sport/football/football-news/Rangers-same-club-existed-before-4904432

5) In another court case, the "Top" Lawyer "representing" Scottish Football who has represented SPFL, the SFL and indeed celtic Football Club, who are Rangers oldest rivals, under oath, as he was a witness made the following comment:

"It was agreed that Rangers FC, NOW OWNED by Sevco Scotland, would play in the 1st division, but this didn't work out. The Club, with a capital C, had been sold to Sevco Scotland ltd."

Rod McKenzie was the solicitor for the League bodies in Scotland and the guy closest to most of this and he confirmed in a court of law that the club was legally sold on and therefore continued.

6) The top footballing body in Europe is UEFA whom im sure you are aware of. Their stance on the issue is very clear and can be found by clicking here on their website.

http://www.uefa.com/teamsandplayers/teams/club=50121/profile/

This is the profile for Rangers Football Club with all their recent scores showing however the main point is on the right of the picture where it lists their Club record in UEFA competitions going back before 2012

Won the European Cup Winners Cup in 1972 (40 years prior to when Mr Clark claims they were born)

Biggest win:
28/09/1983, Rangers 10-0 Valletta, Glasgow
• Biggest defeat:
09/10/1963, Real Madrid 6-0 Rangers, Madrid
• Appearances in UEFA Champions League: 30
• Appearances in UEFA Cup Winners' Cup: 10
• Appearances in UEFA Europa League: 17
• Player with most UEFA appearances: 82
Barry Ferguson ( SCO)
• Top scorers in UEFA club competitions: 21
Ally McCoist ( SCO)

7) In yet another recent court case which went all the way to the Supreme Court, the highest court in the UK, Lord Hodge also confirmed the continuing club by making the following statement 

“RFC 2012 plc which is now the name of the FORMER owners of Rangers Football Club”

This statement has not made many headlines as it appears innocuous however what Lord Hodge clearly distinguishes here is that Rangers Football Club has been sold onto new owners and that the company RFC 2012 plc (in liquidation) are the ones on the hook for whatever he is describing as opposed to the new owners of Rangers Football Club which are Rangers International Football Club plc

You can hear Lord Hodge make this statement at 5:22 in the following video:
 

8) moving onto the European Club Association (ECA) who are the sole, independent body directly representing football clubs at European level. It replaces the G-14 Group and the European Club Forum, both dissolved at the beginning of 2008. ECA are fully recognised by UEFA and FIFA.

Again, having been contacted by rival fans for comments the ECA were forced to release the following statement on Rangers Football Club:

"With regards to associated membership, the membership policy states amongst others that founding members are granted automatic membership. Taking into account that the 'new entity' also acquired the goodwill of the 'old entity', it was held by the ECA executive board that the goodwill, taking into account legal and practical arguments, also included the history of the 'old company'. Consequently it was concluded that Rangers FC was entitled to associated membership of ECA as considered to be a founding member."

You can read the report on this from Scottish Television here:

https://stv.tv/sport/football/clubs/Rangers/205975-european-clubs-body-downgrades-Rangers-status-but-recognises-history/

NEW* 9. The SPFL audited accounts have just been released and can be found here:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC175364/filing-history

A note in the accounts stated "Aberdeen FC, who finished 2nd in the Ladbrokes Premiership and qualified for UEFA Europa League Qualifying Rounds where they were joined by Rangers FC who finished 3rd in their first season BACK in the top flight"

NEW** 10. The best of them all though has just been released as the new 10 year rankings for UEFA have been posted on their website.

http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/revenue/index.html

In these rankings you can see our points from 2009/10, 2010/11 and 2011/12 are included in our total club ranking points. The same also applies to Derry City who found themselves in the exact same position as us. They too have maintained all their points pre administration and sale to a newco whilst oldco went "into liquidation"

[PolarBear1972 180]

No need for this- we know who we are 

We will show the bheasts next Sunday what happens when you lose focus by obsessing over your more successful rivals.

[graeme_4 34,508]

Not being negative mate, but we know who we are. No need for this. 

You’re also not changing their minds. And they can’t read. 

 

[TMB 14,167]

I've debated this issue with celtic fans and can assure you it's pointless to engage in these discussions any further.  As far as they're concerned Rangers died and nothing will convince them otherwise.  They show movies about 'the death of Rangers' inside celtic Park and after todays Scottish Cup draw you'll find celtic fans complaining on social media about use of the term "Old Firm" as they feel it no longer applies.  Let them spend the rest of their lives rattling their gums about it - They will anyway.

We know it's the same club and the governing bodies of football agree.  Our next top-tier title win will be the 55th and recognised as such by the governing bodies of football and main stream media outlets.  Rival fans still pushing the 'new club' myth at that point will be left to look like a group of bitter, angry, and in denial halfwits.  We put it to bed by winning the league and reaffirming our status as Scotland's most successful club.  

[Dazzler 2,428]

Lots of great information, some of which I forgotten about. 

Wasting your breath talking to taigs though. 

[JR 1,480]

Great post mate ~ I was looking for material to reference and now it’s all in one place. 

Thanks for all your effort bud ??

[The Wire 242]

Appreciate the effort that The Lawman has put in here. 

However this just isn't something I bother engaging other fans about. 

I don't care what they think because there is no doubt in my mind that we are the same club. Rattling off evidence makes it look like I care what they think and that they have some sort of case. 

When we are back at the top they will just look bitter with this sort of patter and they can crack on for all I will care. 

[plumbGER 24,518]

Old club or new club, there's no talking to them, but rest assured they know we are coming for them now and have already started making up excuses: sectarian snow, met office in on it, you name it they will try and use it.

[Moody Blue Legend 61,463]

[KeyserSoze 14,532]

I don’t know anyone I can share this with tbf

we know who we are but thanks anyhoo 

[Bears 792]

Great to have the info at hand.

It'll take time to change the narrative but truth will always out.

[Oaktreeloyal 1,422]

Good points well made clarifying the position.

Normal people know what transpired boiled down to a simple change of ownership only. Our club was sold on as a going concern with same ground, same colours, same very proud history since 1872, same everything, however, the taigs and fans of other clubs prefer to cling on to fake news just to try and get one over on us. 

 

[duffy2391 574]

Cheers mate, appreciate the time you put into that.

[GOAT 30,449]

Couldnae care less tbh 

[Big Al 55 9,248]

Should pin it for the lurkers 

[eejay the dj 31,964]

Will make no difference to our hated rivals

I honestly just wish we had a better come back than clapping them when they sing " we are no Rangers anymore "

For me it's weak

We all know who we are anyway  .

[jintybear 8,536]

Thanks @TheLawMan You be obviously spent a great deal of time on this.

The thing is not only do we know who we are but so do they. They know their days at the top of a tarnished winning spree are coming to end and they know who is going to be the ones to topple them from their throne. The mighty Rangers are getting stronger and they know it. 

54 titles and still going strong........

[eejay the dj 31,964]

2 hours ago, THE_MIGHTY_BEARS said:

I've debated this issue with celtic fans and can assure you it's pointless to engage in these discussions any further.  As far as they're concerned Rangers died and nothing will convince them otherwise.  They show movies about 'the death of Rangers' inside celtic Park and after todays Scottish Cup draw you'll find celtic fans complaining on social media about use of the term "Old Firm" as they feel it no longer applies.  Let them spend the rest of their lives rattling their gums about it - They will anyway.

We know it's the same club and the governing bodies of football agree.  Our next top-tier title win will be the 55th and recognised as such by the governing bodies of football and main stream media outlets.  Rival fans still pushing the 'new club' myth at that point will be left to look like a group of bitter, angry, and in denial halfwits.  We put it to bed by winning the league and reaffirming our status as Scotland's most successful club.  

When we do win 55 and then 56 . All this shite will be consigned to the bin from most of our rivals possibly and  the media

Our haters will continue to hate and it's always going to be used as leverage to wind us up . Probably forever . Certainly in our lifetimes .

Being a zombie is NOTHING to  being called a bheast anyway

Especially as EVERYONE knows that one is true and the other is false

[Virtuoso 27,180]

Brilliant as always TLM.

Cue much frothing of the nostrils and gnashing of gums from the Bheasts 

[Bristoe1872 2,551]

You left out the main one the official website of the SPFL. 

https://spfl.co.uk/clubs/Rangers/

However as other folk have said it's a waste of time regarding Savco fans. I am 53 and can't remember ever witnessing anything like this before. A collective mass denial regardless of facts or reality. And when you point out to them that other clubs,for example Leeds,survived with no CVA,or that Hearts went bust in 1905 and Hivs  vanished for over a year yet both clubs claim trophies won prior to these dates all you get is the blank glazed look of a madman. To be fair SOME fans of other clubs will pay heed more. For example I'm friendly with a sheep fan who I work with and when he once talked about the "old," Rangers I showed him the SPFL website and he admitted he had got it wrong. He genuinely believed Rangers were a new club and I'm sure he was influenced by the never ending obsession with this non debate shown by Savco fans. An obsession that five years down the line shows no sign of slacking. It truly is astonishing. It's also interesting to note that all tabloids now refer to us as the same club. Even those who pushed the "death" line in 2012. For example as a quick look at Daily Record Rangers shows. 

But bottom line is I no longer debate this with tarriers it's actually insulting to our intelligence to even debate it. It's akin to discussing the moon landings or 9/11 with a conspiracy theorist. A waste of time. 

[Ibroxholm 2,276]

Agree it’s not worth arguing with fans of other clubs on this subject.  However, such information is useful to have to hand in order to complain if one of the imbeciles at the BBC or mainstream media try and promote the ‘new club’ fantasy.

[Bristoe1872 2,551]

2 minutes ago, Ibroxholm said:

Agree it’s not worth arguing with fans of other clubs on this subject.  However, such information is useful to have to hand in order to complain if one of the imbeciles at the BBC or mainstream media try and promote the ‘new club’ fantasy.

I saw a post once from a few years ago on a forum that explained the entire insolvency act process and why a successful CVA was not a necessity in the case of a football club (although obviously more desirable). If I can dig it out I'll share it here because as you say it's handy to have such info at hand. Even if in the case of Savco it won't make a blind bit of difference.

[KeyserSoze 14,532]

I will wager that no mainstream news outlet (BBC, SKY, the Record, the Sun included) will refer to "their very first title" when we win 55. NONE

It's a thing that only opposition fans use to get a rise out us.... nobody else really believes it

[To Be A Ranger 4,032]

Always good to have someone willing to put in the time and effort for the Rangers cause. We all know we are Rangers but given half a chance there are many who would want us dead. Research and articles like this give the deluded less and less of a leg to stand on.

Good stuff 

[billym27 315]

A lot of effort went into this and I appreciate it but we don't need to try convince ourselves of something we already know and no matter how strong an argument you put to these mutants they will just reply "but aye yees ir pure deed. fkin zombies!" 

I just want to focus on getting #55.