Opposition Youth Players Part One

[Elfideldo 4,400]

Its been suggest I do a post on youth players I have watched playing against Rangers. Big subject and I will do a few posts first one is Aberdeen & celtic.

https://rfcyouths.wordpress.com/2020/05/27/opposition-youth-players-part-one/

[Amokachi 2,984]

Interesting stuff, look forward to more of the same.  Cheers. 

[Inigo 32,526]

Good read. 

[tannerall 25,935]

You're a good man @Elfideldo. 

So nice to have someone on here who is totally focused on the football itself. Your love , enthusiasm , understanding and enjoyment of the football,and the joy you obviously get in sharing your passion and knowledge is obvious. 

And to top it off your a Rangers fan too. 

Well done sir. 

 

 

[SwallowsHisOwnSpunk 7,762]

I find it fascinating; what is it that gives the player the boost to push into the senior game. Whilst other supposedly better players fall away into mediocrity or out the game all together.

As we can see in all of these posts your making there are players that are absolute stand outs as a youngster but then can’t even make a career in the lower leagues (see Islam Feruz).

I think you could break it down into the following factors...

-The players born talent.

-The players work ethic.

-The players Family, Friends & Surroundings.

-A manager taking the risk and giving the opportunity to play senior football.

-Career Choices

-Good coaching & mentorship.

-Injuries & Body Development

-Luck

 

I would say that whilst at a young age 17-22 players career potential can change hugely during this time as a result of all of the things above. 

There also seems to be a trend of youth players coming through and making an immediate impact but then tailing off dramatically as things progress I.e. Gregg Wylde, Glenn Middleton, Danny Wilson, Rhys McCabe, Ryan Gauld at Utd, Tony Watt at the scum etc...

Case in point being someone like Jamie Ness he looked great in his early cameos and had all the talent & abilities needed to succeed for us, he was regarded as one of the top youth players in Scotland but a combination of Injuries at key times, bad career choices and maybe some of the other factors has meant he’s spent a career in the lower leagues of England.

You could have said the same about John Fleck huge hype and potential and his career has so far been spent as a decent Championship midfielder. He seems to have turned it around now and worked his way up-to the EPL where he’s making a big impact but he should have been there far earlier in his career.

Someone like Barry Ferguson or Billy Gilmour who appear as an absolute standout for the youths and then seamlessly make that step up to the Senior level seem to be few and far between (especially in Scotland).

[tannerall 25,935]

@Elfideldo

So many gifted youth players seem to fall at the final hurdle,  even after years of experience in youth teams. That does lead to questions asked surely, but I'll just ask the one.

Do you think it is more down to  a lack of physical or a lack mental approach and ability  ?

[Elfideldo 4,400]

9 hours ago, tannerall said:

@Elfideldo

So many gifted youth players seem to fall at the final hurdle,  even after years of experience in youth teams. That does lead to questions asked surely, but I'll just ask the one.

Do you think it is more down to  a lack of physical or a lack mental approach and ability  ?

Most youth players at the end of the day are just not good enough.

For the really talented players that don't progress there are a few factors, injuries which could also include mental strength to over come those injuries. Attitude, talent gives you a start but without the application its wasted. There are lots of guys who must have sleepless nights when the think what could have been, Charlie Miller had a career but he was only 23 when he left Rangers. His talent was such he still had a career, but it could have been so much better.

Physical size does play a big factor in a number of ways, Dylan Patterson was one of the most naturally talented players I have seen at Rangers, but he was really small. At 16 he could easily have played Under 13 and nobody would have questioned his age. Was briefly at Dundee United, but was out the game by the age of 17, he is only 20 now. I have also seen a lot of talented centre backs who people would not call small, but look at the size of centre backs we have recruited for the first team. There was a good article recently about Hearts youngster Leon Jones, a centre back who Levein had decided wasn't big enough, he is now playing college football hoping to progress to the MLS. These players tend to get shunted to full back but are not as effective there.

Don't under estimate how much luck plays, an injury to someone else providing a chance, I touched on Ryan Fraser's position change transforming his career. Closer to home that was the catalyst for Alan Hutton's career and also Craig Halkett who came to Rangers as a striker.

[tannerall 25,935]

46 minutes ago, Elfideldo said:

Most youth players at the end of the day are just not good enough.

For the really talented players that don't progress there are a few factors, injuries which could also include mental strength to over come those injuries. Attitude, talent gives you a start but without the application its wasted. There are lots of guys who must have sleepless nights when the think what could have been, Charlie Miller had a career but he was only 23 when he left Rangers. His talent was such he still had a career, but it could have been so much better.

Physical size does play a big factor in a number of ways, Dylan Patterson was one of the most naturally talented players I have seen at Rangers, but he was really small. At 16 he could easily have played Under 13 and nobody would have questioned his age. Was briefly at Dundee United, but was out the game by the age of 17, he is only 20 now. I have also seen a lot of talented centre backs who people would not call small, but look at the size of centre backs we have recruited for the first team. There was a good article recently about Hearts youngster Leon Jones, a centre back who Levein had decided wasn't big enough, he is now playing college football hoping to progress to the MLS. These players tend to get shunted to full back but are not as effective there.

Don't under estimate how much luck plays, an injury to someone else providing a chance, I touched on Ryan Fraser's position change transforming his career. Closer to home that was the catalyst for Alan Hutton's career and also Craig Halkett who came to Rangers as a striker.

Well thought out and impressive answer. Thanks. 

Looking at the solely "business" side of it, there seems to be a lot put in to the various youth systems, but small output, more understandable to me now you outlined the reasons above. 

We have probably the best facilities in Scotland, hopefully a more than adequate recruiting and training process. Yet the output over the seasons to our club, or selling for profit appears to me to be limited. (I know a player like Gilmour can potentially make us a fortune, and a player like Hutton can save is a fortune.)

Do you think we should improve these processes by investing more in this area ?

I also notice that our younger teams tend to get great results when playing in European tournaments. (Just like the first team.)  Does this suggest that we are approaching our tactics correctly, so is it just the case that the way football is played in Scotland is doing neither our club or the future of home based Scots any good at all ?

 

 

 

 

[STEPPS BOY 73,669]

Charlie Miller was the best player i’ve ever seen at youth level but his attitude and application was terrible.

[WATP-FOREVER 5,231]

Experiences in their younger life impacts on young footballers - even their idols they follow.

I foolishly picked George Best during mid 70s when he just fuck'd about in & out of the game and you never could have known it at the time, but that seriously impacted me and a few other very capable players my age. 

[pcbear 10,913]

10 hours ago, STEPPS BOY said:

Charlie Miller was the best player i’ve ever seen at youth level but his attitude and application was terrible.

Boab Malcom on Si Ferry said he was the best player he played with.

[STEPPS BOY 73,669]

1 minute ago, pcbear said:

Boab Malcom on Si Ferry said he was the best player he played with.

I played a couple of years under him at Rangers, played against and beside BF and watched Billy Gilmour from a young age.

Charlie was easily the best.

[geneva_ger 9,317]

22 hours ago, tannerall said:

Do you think it is more down to  a lack of physical or a lack mental approach and ability  ?

My boy was his mental attitude. Won so many accolades and went "fuck it" I'm the man, only to experience that a 15 year old who wouldn't listen was worth fuck all.

Fantastic big centre half while it lasted.

[Elfideldo 4,400]

22 hours ago, tannerall said:

Well thought out and impressive answer. Thanks. 

Looking at the solely "business" side of it, there seems to be a lot put in to the various youth systems, but small output, more understandable to me now you outlined the reasons above. 

We have probably the best facilities in Scotland, hopefully a more than adequate recruiting and training process. Yet the output over the seasons to our club, or selling for profit appears to me to be limited. (I know a player like Gilmour can potentially make us a fortune, and a player like Hutton can save is a fortune.)

Do you think we should improve these processes by investing more in this area ?

I also notice that our younger teams tend to get great results when playing in European tournaments. (Just like the first team.)  Does this suggest that we are approaching our tactics correctly, so is it just the case that the way football is played in Scotland is doing neither our club or the future of home based Scots any good at all ?

 

 

 

 

Sorry its taken a while to reply but I've been working on Part 2

I don't think investing more would make a great deal of difference I think our academy is well funded at the moment.

We really were in a bad way under the previous HOY, very few successes in recruitment from other clubs, I can only think of Jamie Ness from Kilmarnock as a qualified success. Poor decisions on players we released, there must be around thirty players in the English and Scottish leagues  who we released, where as in the same numbers that we "bought" , there is barely more than a handful still in the pro game. So having said that, it had to be ripped up to start again.

We have built it back up and we now have players reaching 19/20 that have to take the next step. That is the difficult bit and is outwith the academy's control. The first team manager and coaches will only play a player if they have confidence in them. These players now need to play against better/stronger players to progress, not having a colt team in lower leagues is a blow, that would give us a bit more control. Loans are a gamble, for every Stephen Kelly, a success at Ayr United there a couple of Josh McPake's who spent most of his time at Dundee watching from the sidelines.

I wouldn't read too much into relative success at tournaments, I don't believe its down to tactical genius or innovation. For me its the fact in years 2000's through to 2004's we have had really strong groups with a decent overall standard. At the moment the 2005's and 2006's don't have that depth ( we targeted I think five 2005's from other clubs in January and only got one). Although there are few gems within these two groups. The 2007's and 2008's I am only really getting to know, only seen 2008's twice, so I don't really know how they compare as an overall group.

The club are very optimistic about the 2010's but these are kids paying short sided games and as yet I haven't seen them.

[tannerall 25,935]

36 minutes ago, Elfideldo said:

Sorry its taken a while to reply but I've been working on Part 2

I don't think investing more would make a great deal of difference I think our academy is well funded at the moment.

We really were in a bad way under the previous HOY, very few successes in recruitment from other clubs, I can only think of Jamie Ness from Kilmarnock as a qualified success. Poor decisions on players we released, there must be around thirty players in the English and Scottish leagues  who we released, where as in the same numbers that we "bought" , there is barely more than a handful still in the pro game. So having said that, it had to be ripped up to start again.

We have built it back up and we now have players reaching 19/20 that have to take the next step. That is the difficult bit and is outwith the academy's control. The first team manager and coaches will only play a player if they have confidence in them. These players now need to play against better/stronger players to progress, not having a colt team in lower leagues is a blow, that would give us a bit more control. Loans are a gamble, for every Stephen Kelly, a success at Ayr United there a couple of Josh McPake's who spent most of his time at Dundee watching from the sidelines.

I wouldn't read too much into relative success at tournaments, I don't believe its down to tactical genius or innovation. For me its the fact in years 2000's through to 2004's we have had really strong groups with a decent overall standard. At the moment the 2005's and 2006's don't have that depth ( we targeted I think five 2005's from other clubs in January and only got one). Although there are few gems within these two groups. The 2007's and 2008's I am only really getting to know, only seen 2008's twice, so I don't really know how they compare as an overall group.

The club are very optimistic about the 2010's but these are kids paying short sided games and as yet I haven't seen them.

Brilliant again.   Wasn't meaning to pressure you in to all the effort, but this is appreciated by myself and  I expect many, many others. Nice to get such a well, informed objective view. and hopefully this type of discussion, info and views will be expanded on by other posters who like to take a greater interest in the way our club structures itself across the football playing side at all levels. 

 

[Fredrick 54]

8 hours ago, Elfideldo said:

Sorry its taken a while to reply but I've been working on Part 2

I don't think investing more would make a great deal of difference I think our academy is well funded at the moment.

We really were in a bad way under the previous HOY, very few successes in recruitment from other clubs, I can only think of Jamie Ness from Kilmarnock as a qualified success. Poor decisions on players we released, there must be around thirty players in the English and Scottish leagues  who we released, where as in the same numbers that we "bought" , there is barely more than a handful still in the pro game. So having said that, it had to be ripped up to start again.

We have built it back up and we now have players reaching 19/20 that have to take the next step. That is the difficult bit and is outwith the academy's control. The first team manager and coaches will only play a player if they have confidence in them. These players now need to play against better/stronger players to progress, not having a colt team in lower leagues is a blow, that would give us a bit more control. Loans are a gamble, for every Stephen Kelly, a success at Ayr United there a couple of Josh McPake's who spent most of his time at Dundee watching from the sidelines.

I wouldn't read too much into relative success at tournaments, I don't believe its down to tactical genius or innovation. For me its the fact in years 2000's through to 2004's we have had really strong groups with a decent overall standard. At the moment the 2005's and 2006's don't have that depth ( we targeted I think five 2005's from other clubs in January and only got one). Although there are few gems within these two groups. The 2007's and 2008's I am only really getting to know, only seen 2008's twice, so I don't really know how they compare as an overall group.

The club are very optimistic about the 2010's but these are kids paying short sided games and as yet I haven't seen them.

If im correct i think the 2010s elite group are at edinburgh area! Young kid and his father i know are training with 2011/12s and thommo is a coach with that elite centre & they look superb for that age, thommo i know well also said that theyr the elite group. But again might not be 100% true

[Elfideldo 4,400]

16 hours ago, Fredrick said:

If im correct i think the 2010s elite group are at edinburgh area! Young kid and his father i know are training with 2011/12s and thommo is a coach with that elite centre & they look superb for that age, thommo i know well also said that theyr the elite group. But again might not be 100% true

The overall 2010's will train at The Training Centre, Rangers had closed their Edinburgh Centre a few years ago. back then it was only really used for Boys Clubs players they were keeping an eye on. The Edinburgh Centre has been established again and this time recruited players as well as "trialists" will train there at least part of the time. The commitment from kids and families required for pro youth meant it was difficult to persuade those from East Of Scotland to commit to travelling, when Hearts and Hibs are on their doorstep. This option now provides a kind of halfway house were their coaching will be split between Edinburgh and Milngavie for those that have a bit to travel. I would imagine the numbers their would be smaller so they probably work in multi age groups.

There are plans to open something similar in the North East, it may already be open. They were looking at maybe in the Brechin/Forfar area but I think the decision was made to open in Aberdeen itself.

[Spectre 1,663]

On 27/05/2020 at 23:02, SwallowsHisOwnSpunk said:

I find it fascinating; what is it that gives the player the boost to push into the senior game. Whilst other supposedly better players fall away into mediocrity or out the game all together.

As we can see in all of these posts your making there are players that are absolute stand outs as a youngster but then can’t even make a career in the lower leagues (see Islam Feruz).

I think you could break it down into the following factors...

-The players born talent.

-The players work ethic.

-The players Family, Friends & Surroundings.

-A manager taking the risk and giving the opportunity to play senior football.

-Career Choices

-Good coaching & mentorship.

-Injuries & Body Development

-Luck

 

I would say that whilst at a young age 17-22 players career potential can change hugely during this time as a result of all of the things above. 

There also seems to be a trend of youth players coming through and making an immediate impact but then tailing off dramatically as things progress I.e. Gregg Wylde, Glenn Middleton, Danny Wilson, Rhys McCabe, Ryan Gauld at Utd, Tony Watt at the scum etc...

Case in point being someone like Jamie Ness he looked great in his early cameos and had all the talent & abilities needed to succeed for us, he was regarded as one of the top youth players in Scotland but a combination of Injuries at key times, bad career choices and maybe some of the other factors has meant he’s spent a career in the lower leagues of England.

You could have said the same about John Fleck huge hype and potential and his career has so far been spent as a decent Championship midfielder. He seems to have turned it around now and worked his way up-to the EPL where he’s making a big impact but he should have been there far earlier in his career.

Someone like Barry Ferguson or Billy Gilmour who appear as an absolute standout for the youths and then seamlessly make that step up to the Senior level seem to be few and far between (especially in Scotland).

I wonder about the career choices aspect, the players that stayed at a quality youth setup too long or the ones that move onto a big team where they'll struggle to get first team football. I wonder how many players with really high potential are now working in an office, building site, supermarket because they made the wrong career choices. It can only ever be guesswork but look at a player like Andy Robertson, genuinely talked about amongst the best left backs in the world and a lot of our fans wanted him signed as a prospect based on his performances for Queen's Park in the third division. Obviously comparing him now to the likes of Lee Wallace, he's miles ahead, but he wasn't going to replace Lee at 17/18/19 years old and has been on a journey to get to Liverpool, what difference could it have made to his career if he'd moved to us or somewhere else where he would have been back up or a prospect instead of making moves where he played week in week out. You only have to look at some of the youth players that have got an appearance or 2 for us in the past and now play for diddy teams if at all to see how quickly things can go downhill.