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D'Artagnan

The fight for our culture

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when do they ever NOT comment on perceived sectarianism?

thankfully they are shutting up a bit now, but no doubt they'll be back again soon.

i like the way we are all more or less in agreement here, we had and have a huge prod support, perhaps it would be fair to say that while the rangers element of people's life remains important, the prod element has become less so. except perhaps for rab, whom i sincerely hope never to meet. we're worlds apart, man.

i meant to respond to d'art's points last night but my server crashed, yet again.

as you know probably, i don't take the likes of hugh keevins seriously enough to see a campaign against us, at least not a concerted one. there are plenty of writers who don't like the gers, well, that's life! if 2 or 3 of them with sufficient ability were to work against us that would be a worry, say eg mcillvaney...can't actually think of another, but the calibre of rangers-hater we hear is simply not worth caring about. yes, highlight them so we know who to avoid, but that's as far as i take it.

now is a fascinating time to delve into cultural identity in these parts, and while sporting and esp. football i.d is important, it can't be seen in isolation. as d'art points out, the culture that has been in the dominance, unionist/presbyterian/conservative is not the one which currently obtains. but is this due to insidious tactics by others, or an evolution of society? we can hardly have had the advances in education and knowledge of the last 100 years and still be in the same intellectual position of the victorians! even a post-war mindset seems archaic in 2007, altho it is sadly all too prevelant in the london media.

specifically in relation to rangers, all the campaigning in the world, i believe, will not return us to the past. but we don't need to! the ties that have been forged down the years, for example with ulster bears, are surely not going to wither and die simply because some fans don't subscribe to the same, uniform beliefs? ex-pat families in SA or oz will surely still tell their kids about going to ibrox as a child, and imbue in their own children a support for the club? imo the thing which will hold us back is not changing the extra-sporting dimension of the club, but worrying about the social changes around us. all efforts should go towards getting our team into europe's elite.

Good post and a good thread, I think we need to start looking forward as a club, as a support and as individual fans. There is nothing wrong with celebrating your history and roots, but lets face it it is even better celebrating current victories. These are the things that keep our detractors down. A celebration of past and present whilst leaving religious animosity behind, give our accusers nothing to hang onto.

WATP

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Good post and a good thread, I think we need to start looking forward as a club, as a support and as individual fans. There is nothing wrong with celebrating your history and roots, but lets face it it is even better celebrating current victories. These are the things that keep our detractors down. A celebration of past and present whilst leaving religious animosity behind, give our accusers nothing to hang onto.

WATP

No doubt about it. Thankfully I think our support are well on the way to doing that.

Meanwhile other teams still want to sing about h*** and orange bastards. Hopefully, they'll be subject to the same kind of scrutiny we have.

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when do they ever NOT comment on perceived sectarianism?

thankfully they are shutting up a bit now, but no doubt they'll be back again soon.

i like the way we are all more or less in agreement here, we had and have a huge prod support, perhaps it would be fair to say that while the rangers element of people's life remains important, the prod element has become less so. except perhaps for rab, whom i sincerely hope never to meet. we're worlds apart, man.

i meant to respond to d'art's points last night but my server crashed, yet again.

as you know probably, i don't take the likes of hugh keevins seriously enough to see a campaign against us, at least not a concerted one. there are plenty of writers who don't like the gers, well, that's life! if 2 or 3 of them with sufficient ability were to work against us that would be a worry, say eg mcillvaney...can't actually think of another, but the calibre of rangers-hater we hear is simply not worth caring about. yes, highlight them so we know who to avoid, but that's as far as i take it.

now is a fascinating time to delve into cultural identity in these parts, and while sporting and esp. football i.d is important, it can't be seen in isolation. as d'art points out, the culture that has been in the dominance, unionist/presbyterian/conservative is not the one which currently obtains. but is this due to insidious tactics by others, or an evolution of society? we can hardly have had the advances in education and knowledge of the last 100 years and still be in the same intellectual position of the victorians! even a post-war mindset seems archaic in 2007, altho it is sadly all too prevelant in the london media.

specifically in relation to rangers, all the campaigning in the world, i believe, will not return us to the past. but we don't need to! the ties that have been forged down the years, for example with ulster bears, are surely not going to wither and die simply because some fans don't subscribe to the same, uniform beliefs? ex-pat families in SA or oz will surely still tell their kids about going to ibrox as a child, and imbue in their own children a support for the club? imo the thing which will hold us back is not changing the extra-sporting dimension of the club, but worrying about the social changes around us. all efforts should go towards getting our team into europe's elite.

Good post and a good thread, I think we need to start looking forward as a club, as a support and as individual fans. There is nothing wrong with celebrating your history and roots, but lets face it it is even better celebrating current victories. These are the things that keep our detractors down. A celebration of past and present whilst leaving religious animosity behind, give our accusers nothing to hang onto.

WATP

Well said.

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As far as we are concerned we dont need to fight coz the Billy Boys ahve always been here and always will be...

My son and his son and his son and so on....its here for ever thats why

WE ARE THE PEOPLE NO SURRENDER

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rangers fans will never forget their protestant traditions, because that was what made us as big a cub as we now are. :rangers:

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A very interesting article and an excellent thread (tu) .

The definition of our culture, Rangers culture, is somthing I've been pondering for some time. A lot of people, myself included, are proud of our 'traditional' values but not every Rangers fan identifies with them. And not every fan fully understands the nature of these customs and cultures that have soildified into support for our great Club.

For me, the best way of defending our traditions is to define them, articulate them and then defend them from a position of strength. We must pick our fights and pick them carefully. Its what Republicans (and by extension Celtic) and their sympathizers have been doing for 35 years and they have profitted from it. Hence Celtic fans do not sing about PIRA murder squads their songs are 'political'. that's the reason why every Celtic fan out there is giving potted lectures on Irish history esp circa The War of Independance and The Civil War.

Celtic's spin as an attempt to corner the market on a certain section of Irish society, a certain interpretation of Irish history and use it defend bigotry in their support. Speirs once said that he doubted that the majority of Rangers fans knew the real meaning of the word 'Fenian', hence the reason why our songs and our Club should be outlawed from Europe.

By that logic, the same indictment equally applies to the unacceptable chanting from the Parkhead Choir because I do not believe for a minute that Celtic have an abundance of historians and political analysts in their terraces. This 'political' slant is a smokescreen to pre-empt any actions taken against them and, by extension, gives a minority amongst the Celtic support the licence to do as they please.

We can respond to this be either bawling 'FTP' and 'WATP', or we can unite and fight from strength. Believe me, 'No Surrender' is far easier if pre-empt, set the pace and pick battles that we can win.

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A very interesting article and an excellent thread (tu) .

The definition of our culture, Rangers culture, is somthing I've been pondering for some time. A lot of people, myself included, are proud of our 'traditional' values but not every Rangers fan identifies with them. And not every fan fully understands the nature of these customs and cultures that have soildified into support for our great Club.

For me, the best way of defending our traditions is to define them, articulate them and then defend them from a position of strength. We must pick our fights and pick them carefully. Its what Republicans (and by extension Celtic) and their sympathizers have been doing for 35 years and they have profitted from it. Hence Celtic fans do not sing about PIRA murder squads their songs are 'political'. that's the reason why every Celtic fan out there is giving potted lectures on Irish history esp circa The War of Independance and The Civil War.

Celtic's spin as an attempt to corner the market on a certain section of Irish society, a certain interpretation of Irish history and use it defend bigotry in their support. Speirs once said that he doubted that the majority of Rangers fans knew the real meaning of the word 'Fenian', hence the reason why our songs and our Club should be outlawed from Europe.

By that logic, the same indictment equally applies to the unacceptable chanting from the Parkhead Choir because I do not believe for a minute that Celtic have an abundance of historians and political analysts in their terraces. This 'political' slant is a smokescreen to pre-empt any actions taken against them and, by extension, gives a minority amongst the Celtic support the licence to do as they please.

We can respond to this be either bawling 'FTP' and 'WATP', or we can unite and fight from strength. Believe me, 'No Surrender' is far easier if pre-empt, set the pace and pick battles that we can win.

good post. (tu)

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Not a big fan of this article. I do not consider a football club to have a culture and i dont expect a football club to have any influence over my opinions and actions. Rangers FC is a big part of my life, in that i spend a lot of time and money on the club, however it is what it is, a football club. I think the idea of RFC having a culture suggests that as fans we must be part of this culture, which many of our fans do not subscribe to. Keep culture and football seperate and many of the issues this club face fade away

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Not a big fan of this article. I do not consider a football club to have a culture and i dont expect a football club to have any influence over my opinions and actions. Rangers FC is a big part of my life, in that i spend a lot of time and money on the club, however it is what it is, a football club. I think the idea of RFC having a culture suggests that as fans we must be part of this culture, which many of our fans do not subscribe to. Keep culture and football seperate and many of the issues this club face fade away

As long as uz Billy Boys are around the club will always have its proddy Billy Boy culture and identity coz we are RFC

NO SURRENDER TO THE SCUM WE ARE THE PEOPLE

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We can respond to this be either bawling 'FTP' and 'WATP', or we can unite and fight from strength. Believe me, 'No Surrender' is far easier if pre-empt, set the pace and pick battles that we can win.

If only Rangers had a spokesman like yourself we might not be in the mess we are with regards to the trouble surrounding our support Dillinger.

Great post.

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THEFISH, good reply chief. I now respect your opinions on all matters, your very much a credit to RFC

Its always been like that and always wil be...I can asure you

We wouldnt have it any other way...ye canny beat havin a good Billy Boy get the gither before and after the matches and beltin it oot

No gunt will stop us :rangers:

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Firstly a very imformative piece. Just wanted to add a comment relating to some of the Sinn Fein portrayals of Unionists/Loyalists which Gerry Adams has characterised. The republican movement have this estranged and bewildering notion that one day the protestants of N.Ireland will awake and see the light as such, and suddenly they will realise that everything they thought was important to them will not be. The protestant/Unionist/Loyalist community will see the British as the enemy and will seek to adopt a more nationalist / republican future.

This is what they want to believe, this is a direction and a notion they wish to implant in the heads of all who will listen. They use tactical psychology and manipulative media propaganda to sow these absurd seeds.

This is why you will consistently see the attempted descaling of all things British/Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist, and the assassination of our culture.

We no longer need to fear the republican juggernaut and their black belts in propaganda, because they have been exposed to the world now time and time again, we are all well aware of their agendas/dirty tricks and i dont think too many people are really fooled by the suits and ties that have replaced the berets and balaclavas. Each attack on our culture and heritage only makes us stronger and reinforces our togetherness.

No matter what, no matter the odds, no matter when, WE will always in the face of all adversity overcome those who seek to destroy us. NO SURRENDER !!!

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Firstly a very imformative piece. Just wanted to add a comment relating to some of the Sinn Fein portrayals of Unionists/Loyalists which Gerry Adams has characterised. The republican movement have this estranged and bewildering notion that one day the protestants of N.Ireland will awake and see the light as such, and suddenly they will realise that everything they thought was important to them will not be. The protestant/Unionist/Loyalist community will see the British as the enemy and will seek to adopt a more nationalist / republican future.

This is what they want to believe, this is a direction and a notion they wish to implant in the heads of all who will listen. They use tactical psychology and manipulative media propaganda to sow these absurd seeds.

This is why you will consistently see the attempted descaling of all things British/Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist, and the assassination of our culture.

We no longer need to fear the republican juggernaut and their black belts in propaganda, because they have been exposed to the world now time and time again, we are all well aware of their agendas/dirty tricks and i dont think too many people are really fooled by the suits and ties that have replaced the berets and balaclavas. Each attack on our culture and heritage only makes us stronger and reinforces our togetherness.

No matter what, no matter the odds, no matter when, WE will always in the face of all adversity overcome those who seek to destroy us. NO SURRENDER !!!

doh

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i meant to respond to d'art's points last night but my server crashed, yet again.

as you know probably, i don't take the likes of hugh keevins seriously enough to see a campaign against us, at least not a concerted one. there are plenty of writers who don't like the gers, well, that's life! if 2 or 3 of them with sufficient ability were to work against us that would be a worry, say eg mcillvaney...can't actually think of another, but the calibre of rangers-hater we hear is simply not worth caring about. yes, highlight them so we know who to avoid, but that's as far as i take it.

Get that server sorted out my good friend and stop reading all those books ! :D

Any way Dek - to that part of your reply I have highlighted.

I think its too simplistic to just blame a couple of Rangers hating journos here... we are talking about a significant campaign (which ran against the facts) orchestrated within the very corridors of Hollyrood - not from the printing offices of the Record or the Herald.

Legislation has been introduced - millions of pounds have been spent on various campaigns - which wee Eck....now he has power - has totally dismissed as irrelevant and unnecessary.

Prof Steve Bruce has ridiculed both Scottish Exec and Nil By Mouth figures regarding this so called "secret shame"

I still maintain much of what happened with "Scotlands Secret Shame" was an attempt by Scottish Labour to distract attention from another shame thousands of miles away in Iraq - which that political party had been complicit in creating.

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Firstly a very imformative piece. Just wanted to add a comment relating to some of the Sinn Fein portrayals of Unionists/Loyalists which Gerry Adams has characterised. The republican movement have this estranged and bewildering notion that one day the protestants of N.Ireland will awake and see the light as such, and suddenly they will realise that everything they thought was important to them will not be. The protestant/Unionist/Loyalist community will see the British as the enemy and will seek to adopt a more nationalist / republican future.

This is what they want to believe, this is a direction and a notion they wish to implant in the heads of all who will listen. They use tactical psychology and manipulative media propaganda to sow these absurd seeds.

This is why you will consistently see the attempted descaling of all things British/Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist, and the assassination of our culture.

We no longer need to fear the republican juggernaut and their black belts in propaganda, because they have been exposed to the world now time and time again, we are all well aware of their agendas/dirty tricks and i dont think too many people are really fooled by the suits and ties that have replaced the berets and balaclavas. Each attack on our culture and heritage only makes us stronger and reinforces our togetherness.

No matter what, no matter the odds, no matter when, WE will always in the face of all adversity overcome those who seek to destroy us. NO SURRENDER !!!

doh

Great post Lance.

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Firstly a very imformative piece. Just wanted to add a comment relating to some of the Sinn Fein portrayals of Unionists/Loyalists which Gerry Adams has characterised. The republican movement have this estranged and bewildering notion that one day the protestants of N.Ireland will awake and see the light as such, and suddenly they will realise that everything they thought was important to them will not be. The protestant/Unionist/Loyalist community will see the British as the enemy and will seek to adopt a more nationalist / republican future.

This is what they want to believe, this is a direction and a notion they wish to implant in the heads of all who will listen. They use tactical psychology and manipulative media propaganda to sow these absurd seeds.

This is why you will consistently see the attempted descaling of all things British/Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist, and the assassination of our culture.

We no longer need to fear the republican juggernaut and their black belts in propaganda, because they have been exposed to the world now time and time again, we are all well aware of their agendas/dirty tricks and i dont think too many people are really fooled by the suits and ties that have replaced the berets and balaclavas. Each attack on our culture and heritage only makes us stronger and reinforces our togetherness.

No matter what, no matter the odds, no matter when, WE will always in the face of all adversity overcome those who seek to destroy us. NO SURRENDER !!!

another fantastic post. (tu)

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A very interesting thread and some really good responses.

We are on the whole united, but not fanatical and that steadfastness and reasonableness in the face of adversity will prevail. Good to see.

:rangers:

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But we're still not sure if Papac will stay left back after Stevie comes back?

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But we're still not sure if Papac will stay left back after Stevie comes back?

<cr>

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... pick battles that we can win.

Very good advice.

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I always find your posts interesting DA although I feel I am reading about a culture that is foreign to me. I am ambivalent about the Monarchy - ambivalent about Protestantism - I have no knowledge whatsoever about the Orange Order - and have had no involvement in Northern Ireland politics at all. Even my knowledge of Rangers doesn't really go any further back than 1973 when I started attending games as a 7 year old. That is just the way I am and I don't worry that I don't fit into any group per se. I have never expected to fit into a group. I don't really expect to find likeminded people anywhere nevermind a football game. You come across people who seem to be likeminded here and there, random meetings, writers you read, someone in a pub or whatever, but that likeminded person might, for example, be Chinese and 72 years old, or, for example, be some street-wise kid from New York - they might be any race/type of human being - likeminded to me being someone who thinks for themself, is independent in their outlook, tolerant, compassionate, sympathetic to others etc. So, I find it interesting when others identify with a particular culture so much, perhaps because I don't, maybe I find what I lack interesting... I'm sure there are many who agree with your outlook and I am sure it is valid - but being honest it seems foreign to me - like belonging to any gang or group would be foreign to me.

I am a Rangers fan and, for what it is worth, my credo in matters of faith could be summed up in this quote:

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." The Buddha.

Anyway, I sincerely hope you don't construe any of this an attack or slight. It isn't. But as a Rangers fan I wanted to try and express my own sentiments when I hear about "The Fight for Our Culture": which is that I simply do not relate to much of that culture, although I find it interesting.

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I always find your posts interesting DA although I feel I am reading about a culture that is foreign to me. I am ambivalent about the Monarchy - ambivalent about Protestantism - I have no knowledge whatsoever about the Orange Order - and have had no involvement in Northern Ireland politics at all. Even my knowledge of Rangers doesn't really go any further back than 1973 when I started attending games as a 7 year old. That is just the way I am and I don't worry that I don't fit into any group per se. I have never expected to fit into a group. I don't really expect to find likeminded people anywhere nevermind a football game. You come across people who seem to be likeminded here and there, random meetings, writers you read, someone in a pub or whatever, but that likeminded person might, for example, be Chinese and 72 years old, or, for example, be some street-wise kid from New York - they might be any race/type of human being - likeminded to me being someone who thinks for themself, is independent in their outlook, tolerant, compassionate, sympathetic to others etc. So, I find it interesting when others identify with a particular culture so much, perhaps because I don't, maybe I find what I lack interesting... I'm sure there are many who agree with your outlook and I am sure it is valid - but being honest it seems foreign to me - like belonging to any gang or group would be foreign to me.

I am a Rangers fan and, for what it is worth, my credo in matters of faith could be summed up in this quote:

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." The Buddha.

Anyway, I sincerely hope you don't construe any of this an attack or slight. It isn't. But as a Rangers fan I wanted to try and express my own sentiments when I hear about "The Fight for Our Culture": which is that I simply do not relate to much of that culture, although I find it interesting.

A very honest and open account of your own outlook, no need to worry about voicing your equally legitimate views. What you'll find chum is that the overwhelming majority of Rangers supporters would applaud your open and refreshing attitude.

In our daily lives you wouldnt necessarily know anything about our religion or beliefs, but when under attack or even just when we are on the forum only then you'll KNOW US BY OUR NOISE..

We are all Rangers regardless of diversities. :bouncy:

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I always find your posts interesting DA although I feel I am reading about a culture that is foreign to me. I am ambivalent about the Monarchy - ambivalent about Protestantism - I have no knowledge whatsoever about the Orange Order - and have had no involvement in Northern Ireland politics at all. Even my knowledge of Rangers doesn't really go any further back than 1973 when I started attending games as a 7 year old. That is just the way I am and I don't worry that I don't fit into any group per se. I have never expected to fit into a group. I don't really expect to find likeminded people anywhere nevermind a football game. You come across people who seem to be likeminded here and there, random meetings, writers you read, someone in a pub or whatever, but that likeminded person might, for example, be Chinese and 72 years old, or, for example, be some street-wise kid from New York - they might be any race/type of human being - likeminded to me being someone who thinks for themself, is independent in their outlook, tolerant, compassionate, sympathetic to others etc. So, I find it interesting when others identify with a particular culture so much, perhaps because I don't, maybe I find what I lack interesting... I'm sure there are many who agree with your outlook and I am sure it is valid - but being honest it seems foreign to me - like belonging to any gang or group would be foreign to me.

I am a Rangers fan and, for what it is worth, my credo in matters of faith could be summed up in this quote:

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." The Buddha.

Anyway, I sincerely hope you don't construe any of this an attack or slight. It isn't. But as a Rangers fan I wanted to try and express my own sentiments when I hear about "The Fight for Our Culture": which is that I simply do not relate to much of that culture, although I find it interesting.

A very respectable post, nothing wrong with it at all

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