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No more smoke & mirrors


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The amount of passion and interest in the transfer thread and the various other threads concerning transfer activity merely underlines the importance many of us feel regarding this summer’s newcomers to our squad.

Without jumping the gun or speculating on potential targets I would like to respectfully suggest to you all that there is absolutely no reason why Walter should not be given a sizeable sum to introduce real quality to our current squad. Let’s not beat about the bush – irrespective of our heavy schedule we were not good enough to wrestle the SPL championship from a fairly average, and at times downright poor Celtic side.

Our financial projections for last season would not have included an exceptional Euro run as well as the sale of Alan Hutton. According to a variety of newspapers our Euro achievements have netted the club approximately £20 million, while the sale of Hutton of course brought in £9 million. Assuming we had hoped to bring in maybe £12 million from our Euro excursions as a conservative estimate – you don’t need to be an accountant to realise we have earned well in surplus of even our most optimistic projections.

So there is no excuse for smoke and mirrors nor to be shopping in bargain basement – and when i say we need quality signings – with all due respect to the likes of Kenny Miller – I am talking about players of higher calibre – players with the ability and skill to be matchwinners ...to turn matches with their individual brilliance.

So no more smoke and mirrors Mr Murray – we know the money is there.....will our expectations match your ambitions Mr Murray ?

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D'Art,

As I posted in the other thread below, unfortunately while our European run will have brought in decent money (£20million sounds accurate to me), the profits per se won't be anywhere near as large.

I reckon £5million is probably about as much as we will have made in real profit, so if we want to spend say another £5-10million on top of that, then we'll need to delve into the MIH revolving credit facility again in the summer.

I think we would have done that last year to spend the money we did and that's why Hutton was sold - to ensure any debt was immediately removed.

Ergo, if we have to take another £5-10million this year, then that means a Cuellar or a McGregor will have to go once more. And that's not factoring in the reasonable chance of us NOT even qualifying for the CL Group Stage.

We'll know more at lunchtime on the 30th of June.

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We wait with baited breath D'art. The next two months will show us the height of SDM' ambition for Rangers.

The signs so far are not encouraging but i still believe that the major signings will be made after Euro '08 is finished and the players return to their clubs.

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D'Art,

As I posted in the other thread below, unfortunately while our European run will have brought in decent money (£20million sounds accurate to me), the profits per se won't be anywhere near as large.

I reckon £5million is probably about as much as we will have made in real profit, so if we want to spend say another £5-10million on top of that, then we'll need to delve into the MIH revolving credit facility again in the summer.

I think we would have done that last year to spend the money we did and that's why Hutton was sold - to ensure any debt was immediately removed.

Ergo, if we have to take another £5-10million this year, then that means a Cuellar or a McGregor will have to go once more. And that's not factoring in the reasonable chance of us NOT even qualifying for the CL Group Stage.

We'll know more at lunchtime on the 30th of June.

So after making the Champions league group stage, getting to the Uefa final, domestic cup winning runs, JJB payment and maybe a bonus payment aswell as selling Hutton we have probably only made £5m in real profit? That sounds utter unbelievable.

Great post D'Art (tu)

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D'Art,

As I posted in the other thread below, unfortunately while our European run will have brought in decent money (£20million sounds accurate to me), the profits per se won't be anywhere near as large.

I reckon £5million is probably about as much as we will have made in real profit, so if we want to spend say another £5-10million on top of that, then we'll need to delve into the MIH revolving credit facility again in the summer.

I think we would have done that last year to spend the money we did and that's why Hutton was sold - to ensure any debt was immediately removed.

Ergo, if we have to take another £5-10million this year, then that means a Cuellar or a McGregor will have to go once more. And that's not factoring in the reasonable chance of us NOT even qualifying for the CL Group Stage.

We'll know more at lunchtime on the 30th of June.

£10 to 12 million would be a decent amount in my opinion Frankie - we dont need to rebuild the squad but we need at least 2 real quality players. I saw a thread where it was suggested we would only have £3 million - that of course may have been a rumour started at Ibrox so that clubs dont hold us to ransom over players.

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So after making the Champions league group stage, getting to the Uefa final, domestic cup winning runs, JJB payment and maybe a bonus payment aswell as selling Hutton we have probably only made £5m in real profit? That sounds utter unbelievable.

Great post D'Art (tu)

Believe it mate. :(

The season Celtic made the UEFA Cup final they made a £7million LOSS. Obviously at that time their wages were very high - certainly a fair bit higher than our current wage bill.

However, as of 30/06/2007 we were £16.5million in debt. We spent around £10million after that on players but have brought in around £10million since. Add in our Euro run (say £20million - it won't be more than that IMO), then it's possible we've made around £5million in total.

However, last year (IIRC) we started repayments on a long term £22million loan of around £1million per year. As such, the club may decide to use any profits from last season to reduce that - given the interest on such a loan.

Thus, while on paper we may be around £12-14million in debt, in real terms it's more, so if we're to spend £12million again this summer, we'll either be forced to sell one key player again OR use the revolving overdraft facility provided by MIH.

Disclaimer: This is all (reasonably) educated guesswork so until we receive the latest figures (at the end of this month) then we'll not know for sure.

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D'Art,

As I posted in the other thread below, unfortunately while our European run will have brought in decent money (£20million sounds accurate to me), the profits per se won't be anywhere near as large.

I reckon £5million is probably about as much as we will have made in real profit, so if we want to spend say another £5-10million on top of that, then we'll need to delve into the MIH revolving credit facility again in the summer.

I think we would have done that last year to spend the money we did and that's why Hutton was sold - to ensure any debt was immediately removed.

Ergo, if we have to take another £5-10million this year, then that means a Cuellar or a McGregor will have to go once more. And that's not factoring in the reasonable chance of us NOT even qualifying for the CL Group Stage.

We'll know more at lunchtime on the 30th of June.

Frankie, I bow to your superior knowledge on the club's finances but can you tell me how a European run generating around £25 million coupled with the £9 million from the Hutton transfer can only result in a £5 million profit?

What areas have cost us in the region of £30 million in one season? Especially if the debt has been lowered to around £12.5 million judging by the last report.

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£10 to 12 million would be a decent amount in my opinion Frankie - we dont need to rebuild the squad but we need at least 2 real quality players. I saw a thread where it was suggested we would only have £3 million - that of course may have been a rumour started at Ibrox so that clubs dont hold us to ransom over players.

I agree that amount will be decent but IF we spend £2million on Miller and IF we spend £3million on Davis, that doesn't leave much to play with for the quality players you correctly mention we desperately need. Selling Cousin may help but our qualification for the CL Group stages will also be crucial.

FWIW, I think we will spend £10million again - probably a wee bit more. However, if we consider that we usually only make a small profit from competing in the CL Group stage, one has to wonder where the surplus will come from unless we have the unlikely event of an extended Euro run next season.

When I wonder that, I start looking at our key assets unfortunately.

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Frankie, I bow to your superior knowledge on the club's finances but can you tell me how a European run generating around �25 million coupled with the �9 million from the Hutton transfer can only result in a �5 million profit?

What areas have cost us in the region of �30 million in one season? Especially if the debt has been lowered to around �12.5 million judging by the last report.

Mate,

My knowledge on the club finances is certainly not superior. I just do the math empirically and try to guesstimate from there.

See my simplistic look above. It may well be wrong but I find it best to be overly conservative and thus pleasantly surprised as opposed to overly liberal and thus disappointed... ;)

We have to remember that normally with a CL Group stage performance we usually break even or make a small profit if we qualify. The extra revenue from the UEFA run will increase that profit but our wages/outgoings rose last year so they need to be paid as well. As such, any profit will be modest as opposed to debt-removing and/ or war-chest providing.

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The amount of passion and interest in the transfer thread and the various other threads concerning transfer activity merely underlines the importance many of us feel regarding this summer’s newcomers to our squad.

Without jumping the gun or speculating on potential targets I would like to respectfully suggest to you all that there is absolutely no reason why Walter should not be given a sizeable sum to introduce real quality to our current squad. Let’s not beat about the bush – irrespective of our heavy schedule we were not good enough to wrestle the SPL championship from a fairly average, and at times downright poor Celtic side.

Our financial projections for last season would not have included an exceptional Euro run as well as the sale of Alan Hutton. According to a variety of newspapers our Euro achievements have netted the club approximately £20 million, while the sale of Hutton of course brought in £9 million. Assuming we had hoped to bring in maybe £12 million from our Euro excursions as a conservative estimate – you don’t need to be an accountant to realise we have earned well in surplus of even our most optimistic projections.

So there is no excuse for smoke and mirrors nor to be shopping in bargain basement – and when i say we need quality signings – with all due respect to the likes of Kenny Miller – I am talking about players of higher calibre – players with the ability and skill to be matchwinners ...to turn matches with their individual brilliance.

So no more smoke and mirrors Mr Murray – we know the money is there.....will our expectations match your ambitions Mr Murray ?

fantastic post mate! (tu)

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So after making the Champions league group stage, getting to the Uefa final, domestic cup winning runs, JJB payment and maybe a bonus payment aswell as selling Hutton we have probably only made £5m in real profit? That sounds utter unbelievable.

Great post D'Art (tu)

Believe it mate. :(

The season Celtic made the UEFA Cup final they made a £7million LOSS. Obviously at that time their wages were very high - certainly a fair bit higher than our current wage bill.

However, as of 30/06/2007 we were £16.5million in debt. We spent around £10million after that on players but have brought in around £10million since. Add in our Euro run (say £20million - it won't be more than that IMO), then it's possible we've made around £5million in total.

However, last year (IIRC) we started repayments on a long term £22million loan of around £1million per year. As such, the club may decide to use any profits from last season to reduce that - given the interest on such a loan.

Thus, while on paper we may be around £12-14million in debt, in real terms it's more, so if we're to spend £12million again this summer, we'll either be forced to sell one key player again OR use the revolving overdraft facility provided by MIH.

Disclaimer: This is all (reasonably) educated guesswork so until we receive the latest figures (at the end of this month) then we'll not know for sure.

I'm not very good with numbers or words so correct me if I'm wrong.

You said we were £16.5m in debt as of 30/6/07 and spent around £10m in players leaving us £26.5m in debt. Selling Hutton and Sebo would bring that back down to the £16.5m so our net spend would have been about even.

Now why not use half of that estimated £20m (although it is probably more) towards transfers and put the other £10m + £3m payment from JJB (and possible bonus payment) towards the debt?

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Frankie, I bow to your superior knowledge on the club's finances but can you tell me how a European run generating around �25 million coupled with the �9 million from the Hutton transfer can only result in a �5 million profit?

What areas have cost us in the region of �30 million in one season? Especially if the debt has been lowered to around �12.5 million judging by the last report.

Mate,

My knowledge on the club finances is certainly not superior mate. I just do the math empirically and try to guesstimate from there.

See my simplistic look above. It may well be wrong but I find it best to be overly conservative and thus pleasantly surprised as opposes to overly liberal and thus disappointed... ;)

We have to remember that normally with a CL Group stage performance we usually break even or make a small profit if we qualify. The extra revenue from the UEFA run will increase that profit but our wages/outgoings rose last year so they need to be paid as well. As such, any profit will be modest as opposed to debt-removing and/ or war-chest providing.

Cheers just seen it. It does look really bleak in terms of being able to possess a large transfer budget again and being able to bring in proven quality. If we are to improve the current squad with, as you say, around £10 million per season then we are going to struggle to compete with even English Championship clubs. The only perks we can really offer is the guarantee of European football every season.

Maybe it is time that the club start looking to become more like Ajax in bringing through young players from our exemplary facilities. A good scouting network wouldn't hurt either. This of course would require a fair amount of innovation and ambition from the club and at this present time i don't see anything to indicate the necessary ambition is there.

Looks like the near future is going to be pretty similar to the past 5 years. A change of owner is badly needed to freshen up the club and bring in new ideas.

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D'Art,

As I posted in the other thread below, unfortunately while our European run will have brought in decent money (£20million sounds accurate to me), the profits per se won't be anywhere near as large.

I reckon £5million is probably about as much as we will have made in real profit, so if we want to spend say another £5-10million on top of that, then we'll need to delve into the MIH revolving credit facility again in the summer.

I think we would have done that last year to spend the money we did and that's why Hutton was sold - to ensure any debt was immediately removed.

Ergo, if we have to take another £5-10million this year, then that means a Cuellar or a McGregor will have to go once more. And that's not factoring in the reasonable chance of us NOT even qualifying for the CL Group Stage.

We'll know more at lunchtime on the 30th of June.

£10 to 12 million would be a decent amount in my opinion Frankie - we dont need to rebuild the squad but we need at least 2 real quality players. I saw a thread where it was suggested we would only have £3 million - that of course may have been a rumour started at Ibrox so that clubs dont hold us to ransom over players.

(tu)

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We are in the dark until we see the Annual Report/Audit.

What cheers me up is that back in January we were going to bid 6.5M for an Italian striker. Since then we must have made even more money in Europe.

My guess is we will spend appx. 12m this Summer. Plus we may sell Cousin, Buffel, Hemdani, Gow, Boyd, JCD, McGregor, Cuellar, etc. but not Lee!!

In other words we all have NO CLUE.

Let's wait and see.

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The amount of passion and interest in the transfer thread and the various other threads concerning transfer activity merely underlines the importance many of us feel regarding this summer’s newcomers to our squad.

Without jumping the gun or speculating on potential targets I would like to respectfully suggest to you all that there is absolutely no reason why Walter should not be given a sizeable sum to introduce real quality to our current squad. Let’s not beat about the bush – irrespective of our heavy schedule we were not good enough to wrestle the SPL championship from a fairly average, and at times downright poor Celtic side.

Our financial projections for last season would not have included an exceptional Euro run as well as the sale of Alan Hutton. According to a variety of newspapers our Euro achievements have netted the club approximately £20 million, while the sale of Hutton of course brought in £9 million. Assuming we had hoped to bring in maybe £12 million from our Euro excursions as a conservative estimate – you don’t need to be an accountant to realise we have earned well in surplus of even our most optimistic projections.

So there is no excuse for smoke and mirrors nor to be shopping in bargain basement – and when i say we need quality signings – with all due respect to the likes of Kenny Miller – I am talking about players of higher calibre – players with the ability and skill to be matchwinners ...to turn matches with their individual brilliance.

So no more smoke and mirrors Mr Murray – we know the money is there.....will our expectations match your ambitions Mr Murray ?

A very good post (tu) .

Sadly -and this is not a dig- a call like this is about six years too late beacuse there is a complete lack of accountability and transparency at Ibrox these days.

We have been given no information about transfers (unless it suits the Chairman) for about the last five years.

No explanation about numerous transfer cock-ups.

No vision re: future strategy.

No clear budgetary data (is it £3m, £4m or £10m?).

No explanation about what really happened in the murky Le Guen saga.

No explantion for out endless injury list.

No idea of the Club's future response about the fixture congestion (the lunatic outpouring of the RST don't count).

No explanation as to the whereabouts of the Hutton money or the funds from the UEFA Cup run.

We don't know who is leaving or for what fee.

In Walter we trust? Aye right!

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I'm not very good with numbers or words so correct me if I'm wrong.

You said we were £16.5m in debt as of 30/6/07 and spent around £10m in players leaving us £26.5m in debt. Selling Hutton and Sebo would bring that back down to the £16.5m so our net spend would have been about even.

Now why not use half of that estimated £20m (although it is probably more) towards transfers and put the other £10m + £3m payment from JJB (and possible bonus payment) towards the debt?

Our net spend would not have been even - you have to factor in our increased costs (bigger squad = more wages, more signing on fees plus new loan servicing etc).

If we qualify from the CL we can make around £4million - IIRC from 2005/06 - all things considered (transfer fees, wages, loans etc).

As such, while our UEFA run will have improved that figure, it certainly won't be huge so £5million is a conservative guess as to what we'll report. Hopefully it may be more. Just don't get your hopes up is what I'm saying... :)

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Surely though Frankie the sale of Hutton is a £9 million profit ??? We can also expect to make a profit on Cousin. With the money from Euro...whatever it is that is surely a sizeable sum.

No, because the Hutton/Sebo money only pays for the £10million we spent last summer (July onwards). That still leaves us £16.5million in debt.

The money from the Euro run then goes to cover any other expenses which will be higher than in previous years for reasons indicated above. We will (or should) report a modest profit but not the kind to immediately give us £12million to spend solely on transfers as well as reduce the debt to the kind of level MIH would like to help sell the club.

Please note this all of own opinion. I'm no expert and may well be wrong. :)

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back in January we were going to bid 6.5M for an Italian striker

We were never going to bid that. The media got all excited and and got the amount through-out the 3 years of his contract and fee all mixed up.

Anyway thank fuck we never signde Andrea Carraciolo(sp) he's been awful in Serie B.

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We are in the dark until we see the Annual Report/Audit.

What cheers me up is that back in January we were going to bid 6.5M for an Italian striker. Since then we must have made even more money in Europe.

My guess is we will spend appx. 12m this Summer. Plus we may sell Cousin, Buffel, Hemdani, Gow, Boyd, JCD, McGregor, Cuellar, etc. but not Lee!!

In other words we all have NO CLUE.

Let's wait and see.

SDM's plan worked then.

There was no money and there was no intention of signing him in the first place.

Smoke and mirrors

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We are in the dark until we see the Annual Report/Audit.

What cheers me up is that back in January we were going to bid 6.5M for an Italian striker. Since then we must have made even more money in Europe.

My guess is we will spend appx. 12m this Summer. Plus we may sell Cousin, Buffel, Hemdani, Gow, Boyd, JCD, McGregor, Cuellar, etc. but not Lee!!

In other words we all have NO CLUE.

Let's wait and see.

SDM's plan worked then.

There was no money and there was no intention of signing him in the first place.

Smoke and mirrors

You're probably closer to the truth than you think, IMO.

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