Total Transfer kitty of £6.4m gone?

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Well, I guess that's the naysayers who predicted £3m £5m stuffed.

Oh wait, they'll use the McGregor/Cuellar/Thomson rumours to counter the hard facts.

[TannochsideBear 355]

Unfortunately, we do know that there will be movement out the door that is going to pay for the money spent so far. We do not have the money to buy these players without selling on our gems. We know McGregor has to move for his own security. The fee for him alone will be in excess of what we have spent to date. We will bring in more players, but I would be absolutely amazed and worried if we spend more than £5M (net) on player transfers this season.

No doubt you will disagree because the chairman can do no wrong in your eyes, so keep a copy of this post and come back to me on 31 January 2009 and tell me I am wrong, and the most humbling apology and a cyber pint will be all yours.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Unfortunately, we do know that there will be movement out the door that is going to pay for the money spent so far. We do not have the money to buy these players without selling on our gems. We know McGregor has to move for his own security. The fee for him alone will be in excess of what we have spent to date. We will bring in more players, but I would be absolutely amazed and worried if we spend more than £5M (net) on player transfers this season.

No doubt you will disagree because the chairman can do no wrong in your eyes, so keep a copy of this post and come back to me on 31 January 2009 and tell me I am wrong, and the most humbling apology and a cyber pint will be all yours.

I have to disagree, considering the size of debt, the Euro cash which wiped it out and the Hutton money could see us potentially up to £9m in credit.

I predicted £10m to £15m and will stand by that unless a £10m bid is rightly accepted for McGregor or something similar.

[Canadaready 9,437]

I hope its that big.

[TannochsideBear 355]

I have to disagree, considering the size of debt, the Euro cash which wiped it out and the Hutton money should see us at least £9m in credit.

I predicted £10m to £15m and will stand by that unless a £10m bid is rightly accepted for McGregor or something similar.

Let me get this straight. You predict our transfer outlay will be £10-£15M this summer - after deducting any incoming money for players sold. I can understand if a bid comes in on Aug 31 for £10M you dont have time to spend it, that is why I gave the 31 Jan date in my post, as that is the spending for the season complete.

We spent money last summer, but then had to sell Hutton to get the money back. Our total NET spending last season was around £2-4M, correct?

[Mike Newells Sexist Army 2]

We sold Sebo for 700k, Gow partly financing Lafferty. We also still have Hemdani, Buffel and Cousin that should all bring in at least a million each.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Let me get this straight. You predict our transfer outlay will be £10-£15M this summer - after deducting any incoming money for players sold. I can understand if a bid comes in on Aug 31 for £10M you dont have time to spend it, that is why I gave the 31 Jan date in my post, as that is the spending for the season complete.

No. I'm saying that it'll be £10m - £15m without any exceptional outward transfer deals. In other words, I would include the money from the sales for Cousin, Hemdani and Buffel.

We spent money last summer, but then had to sell Hutton to get the money back. Our total NET spending last season was around £2-4M, correct?

No we didn't. Where did you get that from?

We spent that money and got a great deal for Hutton, which couldn't be refused. It came out of the blue, but you appear to suggest it was part of some pre-arranged master-plan.

[Frankie 505]

I have to disagree, considering the size of debt, the Euro cash which wiped it out and the Hutton money should see us at least £9m in credit.

I predicted £10m to £15m and will stand by that unless a £10m bid is rightly accepted for McGregor or something similar.

Still puzzled at how you can say the debt has been wiped out - never mind suggest we're at least £9million in the black...

Again:

Last August - £16.5million in debt + £10million on players equals a debt of around ~£26.5million.

Last December - Small profit reported of ~£2.5million + £9million for Hutton equals a debt of around £~15million. Please note this includes the money from the CL Group Stage.

Since then we've done better than expected in the UEFA Cup so you can possibly add another £5-10million at the very most - including the sale of Sebo.

As such, we're still not near wiping out the debt. Factor in the long term £22million loan which we've started paying back (the interest won't be small) and the £6-7million we've already spent on new players, then I'd be astonished to see us report that we're £9million in the black come next month (even out with the new players bought).

We may well spend £10-15million but only if - as seems likely - one of our prize assets is moved on. Thus, the net spend will be as it has been for the last number of years - ie: no more than £5million.

[sneddon 6]

We sold Sebo for 700k, Gow partly financing Lafferty. We also still have Hemdani, Buffel and Cousin that should all bring in at least a million each.

theres a lot more deadwood to get rid of IMO, chris burke for starters

[JR 1,480]

We sold Sebo for 700k, Gow partly financing Lafferty. We also still have Hemdani, Buffel and Cousin that should all bring in at least a million each.

theres a lot more deadwood to get rid of IMO, chris burke for starters

We would need to pay for him to leave

[sneddon 6]

We sold Sebo for 700k, Gow partly financing Lafferty. We also still have Hemdani, Buffel and Cousin that should all bring in at least a million each.

theres a lot more deadwood to get rid of IMO, chris burke for starters

We would need to pay for him to leave

want to start a kitty?

[Mike Newells Sexist Army 2]

We sold Sebo for 700k, Gow partly financing Lafferty. We also still have Hemdani, Buffel and Cousin that should all bring in at least a million each.

theres a lot more deadwood to get rid of IMO, chris burke for starters

He's injured till Christmas after ankle surgery and i can't think of anyone else we would want to sell that would bring in much.

[JR 1,480]

We sold Sebo for 700k, Gow partly financing Lafferty. We also still have Hemdani, Buffel and Cousin that should all bring in at least a million each.

theres a lot more deadwood to get rid of IMO, chris burke for starters

We would need to pay for him to leave

want to start a kitty?

I'll drive him....anywhere.

[TannochsideBear 355]

No. I'm saying that it'll be £10m - £15m without any exceptional outward transfer deals. In other words, I would include the money from the sales for Cousin, Hemdani and Buffel.

What do you mean by exceptional outward transfer deals. You are not trying to tell me that you cant count £10M for McGregor in the total net spending position but count Cousin, Hemdani & Buffel. How is it different?

We spent that money and got a great deal for Hutton, which couldn't be refused. It came out of the blue, but you appear to suggest it was part of some pre-arranged master-plan.

Hutton himself was not pre-arranged, but we did have to sell one or more players in January to recoup some of the spending we made last summer. DM said as much around November time when he openly admitted we had spent too much in the summer, and suggested we would have no January budget, which was also correct.

Now please answer my question about our total 2007-08 transfer spending. £2-4M?

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

I have to disagree, considering the size of debt, the Euro cash which wiped it out and the Hutton money should see us at least £9m in credit.

I predicted £10m to £15m and will stand by that unless a £10m bid is rightly accepted for McGregor or something similar.

Still puzzled at how you can say the debt has been wiped out - never mind suggest we're at least £9million in the black...

Again:

Last August - £16.5million in debt + £10million on players equals a debt of around ~£26.5million.

I believe your estimate is high here. £22m is nearer the mark.

Last December - Small profit reported of ~£2.5million + £9million for Hutton equals a debt of around £~15million. Please note this includes the money from the CL Group Stage.

Not all of it. Points money, nearly £2m, is paid later and I doubt that all our gate and appearance money was paid in December when the last match was in December.

Since then we've done better than expected in the UEFA Cup so you can possibly add another £5-10million at the very most - including the sale of Sebo.

£10m will be nearer the mark.

As such, we're still not near wiping out the debt. Factor in the long term £22million loan which we've started paying back (the interest won't be small) and the £6-7million we've already spent on new players, then I'd be astonished to see us report that we're £9million in the black come next month (even out with the new players bought).

We may well spend £10-15million but only if - as seems likely - one of our prize assets is moved on. Thus, the net spend will be as it has been for the last number of years - ie: no more than £5million.

I'm not saying we will announce that we are in the black, but that, certainly before these signings, we were in the black, somewhere around £5m - £7m factoring in interest payments.

[Frankie 505]

Oleg:

Again, please forgive my empirical figures in layman's terms. I am no accountant.

To take your points in order:

1. As of 30/06/07 the debt was reported as £16.5million. Since that date we spent another £10million on players up until 31/08/07. As such, I think your figure of £22million is rather low. You do agree?

2. I quote from the interim report in January:

"Turnover for the six months to 31 December 2007 increased by £10.0m to £33.1m primarily due to the UEFA Champions League performance and market pool income, and the positive impact on ticketing and hospitality sales. "

That suggest everything was taken into account - even if income was estimated given the interim nature of the report.

3. We're both guessing here. In the year Celtic reached Seville they made a loss of £7million. We won't have done that but to suggest we've made almost £17million more - even taking into account TV money and our smaller wage structure is pushing it. Even if we do say we made £10million that still leaves a debt of around £5million.

4. You suggested we were £9million in credit. Out of interest, where do you find this extra £14million you claim - when comparing your figure to mine? I'd guess any interest payments would be negligible given the long term £22million loan.

Like I say, current transfers or not, I find your figures extremely unlikely - even if I hope you are correct!

[Muiry12 7]

. We know McGregor has to move for his own security.

??????

why does he need to move for his own security??

[TannochsideBear 355]

Not all of what was in the papers about him at the end of the season was false. He has apparantly been told to get out of town, or risk personal injury of a non-football nature. Sad that the wild west rules still apply to gansters these days and they cannot just resolve their differences with the old 10 step shoot-out. As we all know Mcgregor is good at shoot-outs.

[trueblue1872 2]

Shame we've spent all that on shit.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Oleg:

Again, please forgive my empirical figures in layman's terms. I am no accountant.

To take your points in order:

1. As of 30/06/07 the debt was reported as £16.5million. Since that date we spent another £10million on players up until 31/08/07. As such, I think your figure of £22million is rather low. You do agree?

No.

2. I quote from the interim report in January:

"Turnover for the six months to 31 December 2007 increased by £10.0m to £33.1m primarily due to the UEFA Champions League performance and market pool income, and the positive impact on ticketing and hospitality sales. "

That suggest everything was taken into account - even if income was estimated given the interim nature of the report.

No. It doesn't say "all" because that would be wrong.

3. We're both guessing here. In the year Celtic reached Seville they made a loss of £7million. We won't have done that but to suggest we've made almost £17million more - even taking into account TV money and our smaller wage structure is pushing it. Even if we do say we made £10million that still leaves a debt of around £5million.

No. That clearly doesn't add up.

4. You suggested we were £9million in credit. Out of interest, where do you find this extra £14million you claim - when comparing your figure to mine? I'd guess any interest payments would be negligible given the long term £22million loan.

Like I say, current transfers or not, I find your figures extremely unlikely - even if I hope you are correct!

It's all been answered above and completely satisfactorily to any numerate person. I see no need to repeat it and refer you to the above.

[Frankie 505]

Oleg:

1. No? Why not? Are you seriously suggesting the official £16.5million debt plus around £10million spent on new players before the end of the window doesn't equate to £26.5million debt? Please show us how you find the £22million figure you claim....

2. I'd think if there was more profit for the club to claim, they'd say so. Or at the very least suggest everything wasn't taken into account. As it stands they clearly say our 'performance, market pool income and ticketing' helped deliver the profit. The word 'all' isn't needed.

3. What clearly doesn't add up? Please expand.

4. I am reasonably numerate and I don't think you have answered satisfactorily. Your figures are wrong IMO (and others). Where do you find the extra £14million from given the clear income/expenditure we can base our estimates on?

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Oleg:

1. No? Why not? Are you seriously suggesting the official £16.5million debt plus around £10million spent on new players before the end of the window doesn't equate to £26.5million debt? Please show us how you find the £22million figure you claim....

2. I'd think if there was more profit for the club to claim, they'd say so. Or at the very least suggest everything wasn't taken into account. As it stands they clearly say our 'performance, market pool income and ticketing' helped deliver the profit. The word 'all' isn't needed.

3. What clearly doesn't add up? Please expand.

4. I am reasonably numerate and I don't think you have answered satisfactorily. Your figures are wrong IMO (and others). Where do you find the extra £14million from given the clear income/expenditure we can base our estimates on?

1. JJB payments added to your inaccurate transfer summaries.

2. They can't claim it before it's available, although they could delay it as in the case of said JJB cash.

3. It really should be obvious by now. You resorted to quoting figures that never came from me. £17m?

4. We'll have to disagree, because you're clearly ignoring that which has been said before. It's now pointless and you've clearly closed your mind.

[Frankie 505]

Oleg:

I have not closed my mind and I'm not sure why you feel the need to roll your eyes at someone who is politely taking issue with what you claim. If I'm wrong (and I may well be), please show me how.

1. The JJB payments can't be added to the figure you mention. They were included in the initial £16.5million debt figure for the finances of the previous season. Now, they may be included since then (possibly in the interim reports but more likely next month) but as it stood in August we were at £26.5million debt - simplistically speaking.

2. I can only go with the hard facts you talk about and the club say the CL money has been included. I'm pretty sure they'd say partial figures if they hadn't included all the income.

3. No, it's not obvious. And please don't suggest I attributed figures to you. I didn't - I merely used a valid comparative example to take issue with your claim we have made £25.5million in the last year to take us to £9million in the black.

4. I'm not ignoring what you're saying. I'm asking you to justify it. Considering your opening post mentioned hard facts, I see little evidence of that from you despite your dismissive nature of other posters similarly simplistic but valid opinions.

5. In recent seasons we've made little money from European campaigns. Qualifying from the CL Group Stage does ensure modest profits and our UEFA run of last season will have added to that. Indeed, maybe even to the tune of £10million retained profit when adding TV money and JJB bonuses. That still leaves us some way short of £9million in the black though and since you've failed to show us how you come to that figure, the only person closing their mind is yourself.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Oleg:

I have not closed my mind and I'm not sure why you feel the need to roll your eyes at someone who is politely taking issue with what you claim. If I'm wrong (and I may well be), please show me how.

1. The JJB payments can't be added to the figure you mention. They were included in the initial £16.5million debt figure for the finances of the previous season. Now, they may be included since then (possibly in the interim reports but more likely next month) but as it stood in August we were at £26.5million debt - simplistically speaking.

2. I can only go with the hard facts you talk about and the club say the CL money has been included. I'm pretty sure they'd say partial figures if they hadn't included all the income.

3. No, it's not obvious. And please don't suggest I attributed figures to you. I didn't - I merely used a valid comparative example to take issue with your claim we have made £25.5million in the last year to take us to £9million in the black.

4. I'm not ignoring what you're saying. I'm asking you to justify it. Considering your opening post mentioned hard facts, I see little evidence of that from you despite your dismissive nature of other posters similarly simplistic but valid opinions.

5. In recent seasons we've made little money from European campaigns. Qualifying from the CL Group Stage does ensure modest profits and our UEFA run of last season will have added to that. Indeed, maybe even to the tune of £10million when adding TV money and JJB bonuses. That still leaves us some way short of £9million in the black though and since you've failed to show us how you come to that figure, the only person closing their mind is yourself.

There's no point. We disagree with many figures and facts. I know that JJB money is released to the balance sheet, even though we already have that cash. You don't believe that despite the fact it's common knowledge. It's also common knowledge that UEFA don't pay out cash immediately, but you strongly imply it isn't. If knowing the facts is a sing of a closed mind, then feel free to label me guilty.

When you disagree with the core facts, that's where the debate ends. It's not a matter of interpretation when it comes to that.

[Frankie 505]

Oleg:

1. I know fine that the initial £18m JJB money is released on a year by year equal portion basis. I haven't suggested otherwise. I just said that my initial figure (and the official club debt) took the most recent payment into account.

2. Where is it common knowledge that UEFA don't pay out cash immediately? I've never seen that anywhere. I can only go with what the club said in their report - ie that the club have included the CL performance in their figures.

3. Now, again, please show us the 'core facts' that gives you the £9million figure you claim. If I'm wrong, show me how - it can't be hard if you have all these facts to hand.