rangers and the orange order

[MosesMcNeil 1,664]

I really hope that the Orange Order pull out all the stops to eradicate the poison that have latched onto them. I also believe that most people are not against catholics as individuals. It is the institution of catholicism that people have issues with.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Some excellent and interesting points.

Firstly can I say that it is part of every orangeman/womans initiation to abstain from unkind words or deeds towards Roman Catholics - its written in the very core of their beliefs.

I have no problems with them singing No Pope of Rome - they do exist after all to oppose the rule of the Church of Rome. ...it seems aptly appropriate that they should sing such a song.

I think it was Jiminez who touched on the demonisation of this organisation in recent years - its been an absolute witch hunt with little substance to the many accusations levelled against the OO or its members. I have little doubt who is behind much of this.

Perhaps if we look a little outwith the goldfish bowl of Glasgow we will actually see that the OO are not isolated in their opposition to the Roman Catholic Church...with some very credible organisations lining up to make charges or take issue with them...

For instance the World Health Organisation a couple of years ago were pursuing the Catholic Church for crimes against humanity for the lies and mis-information they were spreading regarding the use of condoms in Africa - such lies and conduct was openly exposed in a Panorama documentary a couple of years ago.

Many of the Equalities groups take real issue with the Catholic Church due to their continual diminuition of women and their continual castigation of gays (who can forget Cardinal O'Briens comments last year comparing gays to paedophiles ?) Pretty rich coming from a member of a church which actively covered up for years the abuse of children within the Catholic Church in America - threatening and bullying victims into silence until finally a Boston newspaper exposed the whole dreadful story.

Its not bigotted to detest the Catholic Church - their record after all is pretty poor - this is the same church which only 60 years ago was happy to enter into a pact with the fascists in Italy.

Our football club developed as a football club with a Protestant identity in response to the very pro-Cathloic/Irish nature of our rivals Celtic - the Orange Order being only one of a number of Protestant organisations welcomed at Ibrox. Furthermore we as a club confirmed that identity by playing matches in order to raise funds for Orange Halls and Lodges.

And therein lies the problem - you cant create such an identity over the years and then expect to drop it at the drop of a hat - nor expect fans to drop such associations or connections. What I find particularly sad is that our club have dropped some of these connections merely through pressure - not because of any bona fide evidence in respect of the organisations we were associated with. Particularly when some of those applying the pressure were themselves guilty of stereotyping and bigotry.

I do think times have changed with regard to what we are as a club. We are no longer the Protestant bastion we were at one time - in fact Im sure we have fielded teams with more Catholics than Protestant in it. And its positive to see some of the posters on here who are Catholics themselves have been attracted to follow Rangers.

However that does not stop us having a very strong Protestant heritage and its evident from our song repertoire that such a heritage is still a very strong part for a sizeable section of our support and I think only the secularisation of society in the coming years may cause it to diminish.

[BLUEDIGNITY 33,647]

Some excellent and interesting points.

Firstly can I say that it is part of every orangeman/womans initiation to abstain from unkind words or deeds towards Roman Catholics - its written in the very core of their beliefs.

I have no problems with them singing No Pope of Rome - they do exist after all to oppose the rule of the Church of Rome. ...it seems aptly appropriate that they should sing such a song.

I think it was Jiminez who touched on the demonisation of this organisation in recent years - its been an absolute witch hunt with little substance to the many accusations levelled against the OO or its members. I have little doubt who is behind much of this.

Perhaps if we look a little outwith the goldfish bowl of Glasgow we will actually see that the OO are not isolated in their opposition to the Roman Catholic Church...with some very credible organisations lining up to make charges or take issue with them...

For instance the World Health Organisation a couple of years ago were pursuing the Catholic Church for crimes against humanity for the lies and mis-information they were spreading regarding the use of condoms in Africa - such lies and conduct was openly exposed in a Panorama documentary a couple of years ago.

Many of the Equalities groups take real issue with the Catholic Church due to their continual diminuition of women and their continual castigation of gays (who can forget Cardinal O'Briens comments last year comparing gays to paedophiles ?) Pretty rich coming from a member of a church which actively covered up for years the abuse of children within the Cathlic Church in America - threatening and bullying victims into silence until finally a Boston newspaper exposed the whole dreadful story.

Its not bigotted to detest the Catholic Church - their record after all is pretty poor - this is the same church which only 60 years ago was happy to enter into a pact with the fascists in Italy.

Our football club developed as a football club with a Protestant identity in response to the very pro-Cathloic/Irish nature of our rivals Celtic - the Orange Order being only one of a number of Protestant organisations welcomed at Ibrox. Furthermore we as a club confirmed that identity by playing matches in order to raise funds for Orange Halls and Lodges.

And therein lies the problem - you cant create such an identity over the years and then expect to drop it at the drop of a hat - nor expect fans to drop such associations or connections. What I find particularly sad is that our club have dropped some of these connections merely through pressure - not because of any bona fide evidence in respect of the organisations we were associated with. Particularly when some of those applying the pressure were themselves guilty of stereotyping and bigotry.

I do think times have changed with regard to what we are as a club. We are no longer the Protestant bastion we were at one time - in fact Im sure we have fielded teams with more Catholics than Protestant in it. And its positive to see some of the posters on here who are Catholics themselves have been attracted to follow Rangers.

However that does stop us having a very strong Protestant heritage and its evident from our song repertoire that such a heritage is still a very strong part for a sizeable section of our support and I think only the secularisation of society in the coming years may cause it to diminish.

Your spot on DA it's not bigotted to detest an organisation that has been involved in as much genocide if not more than evil despots like hitler and pol pot in the name of religion. And their covering up of sexual abuse within the church is now common knowledge. Great words DA !

[eastcoastbear 122]

Very good post D'Art.

Firstly can I say that it is part of every orangeman/womans initiation to abstain from unkind words or deeds towards Roman Catholics - its written in the very core of their beliefs.

What used to really pee me off when outsider's commented on the OO was their belief that the Order was against Catholics in general, as opposed to being against the false doctrine of their faith. I wish the OO would publicly promote the true basis of their priniples, to a degree. Pun intended.

[TMWWBK 0]

Some excellent and interesting points.

Firstly can I say that it is part of every orangeman/womans initiation to abstain from unkind words or deeds towards Roman Catholics - its written in the very core of their beliefs.

I have no problems with them singing No Pope of Rome - they do exist after all to oppose the rule of the Church of Rome. ...it seems aptly appropriate that they should sing such a song.

I think it was Jiminez who touched on the demonisation of this organisation in recent years - its been an absolute witch hunt with little substance to the many accusations levelled against the OO or its members. I have little doubt who is behind much of this.

Perhaps if we look a little outwith the goldfish bowl of Glasgow we will actually see that the OO are not isolated in their opposition to the Roman Catholic Church...with some very credible organisations lining up to make charges or take issue with them...

For instance the World Health Organisation a couple of years ago were pursuing the Catholic Church for crimes against humanity for the lies and mis-information they were spreading regarding the use of condoms in Africa - such lies and conduct was openly exposed in a Panorama documentary a couple of years ago.

Many of the Equalities groups take real issue with the Catholic Church due to their continual diminuition of women and their continual castigation of gays (who can forget Cardinal O'Briens comments last year comparing gays to paedophiles ?) Pretty rich coming from a member of a church which actively covered up for years the abuse of children within the Catholic Church in America - threatening and bullying victims into silence until finally a Boston newspaper exposed the whole dreadful story.

Its not bigotted to detest the Catholic Church - their record after all is pretty poor - this is the same church which only 60 years ago was happy to enter into a pact with the fascists in Italy.

Our football club developed as a football club with a Protestant identity in response to the very pro-Cathloic/Irish nature of our rivals Celtic - the Orange Order being only one of a number of Protestant organisations welcomed at Ibrox. Furthermore we as a club confirmed that identity by playing matches in order to raise funds for Orange Halls and Lodges.

And therein lies the problem - you cant create such an identity over the years and then expect to drop it at the drop of a hat - nor expect fans to drop such associations or connections. What I find particularly sad is that our club have dropped some of these connections merely through pressure - not because of any bona fide evidence in respect of the organisations we were associated with. Particularly when some of those applying the pressure were themselves guilty of stereotyping and bigotry.

I do think times have changed with regard to what we are as a club. We are no longer the Protestant bastion we were at one time - in fact Im sure we have fielded teams with more Catholics than Protestant in it. And its positive to see some of the posters on here who are Catholics themselves have been attracted to follow Rangers.

However that does not stop us having a very strong Protestant heritage and its evident from our song repertoire that such a heritage is still a very strong part for a sizeable section of our support and I think only the secularisation of society in the coming years may cause it to diminish.

A good post.

I also think its unfair for some to attribute these "hanger on's" at the Orange marches to the actual Orange Order. Really, how many buckfast swigging, Catholic cursing middle aged men do you think were actually brought up on the beliefs and history of the actual OO? I think its unfair to simply lay the blame for these cretins at the door of the OO because you'll find that alot of people simply sing these obsecneities because of the connations the lodge has with Rangers.

I personally dont have a problem with the Orange anthems. The lyrical content in some of the songs is far too direct and heavy handed for me but i suppose thats down to the course of time and not the actual lodge itself.

[WVB 2,560]

Superbly worded D'Artagnan.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

also think its unfair for some to attribute these "hanger on's" at the Orange marches to the actual Orange Order.

Its not just unfair TM ...its totally unacceptable. Its the role of the Police to deal with these cretins. Do we we ask the bands at T in the Park to be responsible for those who misbehave within the crowds ?

[*Manticore* 1,893]

If anybody is interested in finding out about the Order you should get hold of Ruth Dudley Edwards' 'The Faithful Tribe'.

Those of you who make connections will see that the OO has undergone the same sort of negative media campaign as RFC.

We (RFC) are demonised as bigots by people who are fanatical anti Protestant bigots themselves.

As is the OO.

[mark_ni 12]

rangers must be proud of their connection with the orange order

The fact that the steps Rangers have taken in recent years to eradicate problems with in our support - I doubt that Rangers would be happy to be linked with the Orange Order in the way we used to be. The bowl is part of history.

But to link ourselves with a group who openly denounce catholics, is taken a step backwards.

utter BS. How the hell do they openly denounce catholics??? The orange order is a pro protestant organisation originally set up to defend the protestant community from sectarian attacks from anti protestant bigots. It is a perfectly legitimate organisation and i dont see the problem with having links with it. It believes (as i do) that the roman catholic church is a false antiscriptural religion and they are perfectly entitled to that viewpoint. If we are going to accuse them of being anti catholic just because they dont believe the teachings of the roman church then we could accuse every follower of religion to be anti something just because they dont believe the other religion. Catholics could be accused of being anti protestant because they dont believe the teachings of protestant churches.

[mark_ni 12]

If anybody is interested in finding out about the Order you should get hold of Ruth Dudley Edwards' 'The Faithful Tribe'.

Those of you who make connections will see that the OO has undergone the same sort of negative media campaign as RFC.

We (RFC) are demonised as bigots by people who are fanatical anti Protestant bigots themselves.

As is the OO.

spot on mate

[kplfishtank 4,656]

im getting a bit worried that im a drunken shell suited ned who sings sectarian songs following the parade

for the record i follow the parade most years as i meet friends some of whom i only meet two or three times a year after watching it we head into city centre for a meal then back to kinning park to see govan district march home

not everyone who follows the parade are the same

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

im getting a bit worried that im a drunken shell suited ned who sings sectarian songs following the parade

for the record i follow the parade most years as i meet friends some of whom i only meet two or three times a year after watching it we head into city centre for a meal then back to kinning park to see govan district march home

not everyone who follows the parade are the same

No kpl but they would like to portray us as such...sadly some on here appear to have bought into the lie.

Job done.

[BLUE CYCLOPS 26]

I wonder why BJ is out of the loop. Does he know something?

If Celtic can throw Parkhead open for Religous services why is it wrong for Ramgers to do the same?

If Celtic have stopped this practice then so must we to avoid any claims of sectarianism.

[kplfishtank 4,656]

does that mean billy graham or any other evangelical leaders want to have a preaching session in ibrox we would have to tell them to get lost

[eastcoastbear 122]

im getting a bit worried that im a drunken shell suited ned who sings sectarian songs following the parade

for the record i follow the parade most years as i meet friends some of whom i only meet two or three times a year after watching it we head into city centre for a meal then back to kinning park to see govan district march home

not everyone who follows the parade are the same

No kpl but they would like to portray us as such...sadly some on here appear to have bought into the lie.

Job done.

I watched the 12th parade in Belfast online last year and the thing that struck me most (apart from the bands) was the impression of there being a real public appreciation of the parade. This appreciation, highlighted by the various interviews with spectators, was from people of all ages, backgrounds and in some cases, nationalities. This set me wondering….

1. Does the GOLI actively promote the Order’s principles at home and abroad?

2. Does the GOLI actively liase with the Police regarding spectator behaviour?

3. Does the GOLI need to do 1 and/or 2 above, or is the mindset of their parades’ spectators more mature and appreciative?

4. If a ned element exists, how are they dealt with by the Marshalls or the Police?

I have been a lapsed member of Edinburgh District 5 for about 15 years so I am no longer in the know regarding the workings of the GOLS. I do wonder though, does the GOLS encourage the Police to remove any ned element? Or, by doing so, would this give those that oppose the OO more ammunition in their campaign against the Order?

I do have to say that whenever on parade in Edinburgh, I was never really aware of the neds. I was too busy scouring the crowds for known republicans taking photos with the disposable cameras they bought from their giro money!!

Ps kpl, you don’t really wear a shell suit do you??

[kplfishtank 4,656]

im getting a bit worried that im a drunken shell suited ned who sings sectarian songs following the parade

for the record i follow the parade most years as i meet friends some of whom i only meet two or three times a year after watching it we head into city centre for a meal then back to kinning park to see govan district march home

not everyone who follows the parade are the same

No kpl but they would like to portray us as such...sadly some on here appear to have bought into the lie.

Job done.

I watched the 12th parade in Belfast online last year and the thing that struck me most (apart from the bands) was the impression of there being a real public appreciation of the parade. This appreciation, highlighted by the various interviews with spectators, was from people of all ages, backgrounds and in some cases, nationalities. This set me wondering….

1. Does the GOLI actively promote the Order’s principles at home and abroad?

2. Does the GOLI actively liase with the Police regarding spectator behaviour?

3. Does the GOLI need to do 1 and/or 2 above, or is the mindset of their parades’ spectators more mature and appreciative?

4. If a ned element exists, how are they dealt with by the Marshalls or the Police?

I have been a lapsed member of Edinburgh District 5 for about 15 years so I am no longer in the know regarding the workings of the GOLS. I do wonder though, does the GOLS encourage the Police to remove any ned element? Or, by doing so, would this give those that oppose the OO more ammunition in their campaign against the Order?

I do have to say that whenever on parade in Edinburgh, I was never really aware of the neds. I was too busy scouring the crowds for known republicans taking photos with the disposable cameras they bought from their giro money!!

Ps kpl, you don’t really wear a shell suit do you??

have you seen the price of them lately i couldnt afford 1 :harhar:

[eastcoastbear 122]

im getting a bit worried that im a drunken shell suited ned who sings sectarian songs following the parade

for the record i follow the parade most years as i meet friends some of whom i only meet two or three times a year after watching it we head into city centre for a meal then back to kinning park to see govan district march home

not everyone who follows the parade are the same

No kpl but they would like to portray us as such...sadly some on here appear to have bought into the lie.

Job done.

I watched the 12th parade in Belfast online last year and the thing that struck me most (apart from the bands) was the impression of there being a real public appreciation of the parade. This appreciation, highlighted by the various interviews with spectators, was from people of all ages, backgrounds and in some cases, nationalities. This set me wondering….

1. Does the GOLI actively promote the Order’s principles at home and abroad?

2. Does the GOLI actively liase with the Police regarding spectator behaviour?

3. Does the GOLI need to do 1 and/or 2 above, or is the mindset of their parades’ spectators more mature and appreciative?

4. If a ned element exists, how are they dealt with by the Marshalls or the Police?

I have been a lapsed member of Edinburgh District 5 for about 15 years so I am no longer in the know regarding the workings of the GOLS. I do wonder though, does the GOLS encourage the Police to remove any ned element? Or, by doing so, would this give those that oppose the OO more ammunition in their campaign against the Order?

I do have to say that whenever on parade in Edinburgh, I was never really aware of the neds. I was too busy scouring the crowds for known republicans taking photos with the disposable cameras they bought from their giro money!!

Ps kpl, you don’t really wear a shell suit do you??

have you seen the price of them lately i couldnt afford 1 :harhar:

Thank feck for that mate. Can't really picture you in a shell suit, whitesocks, sovvies and lovebites.

[minstral 5,375]

my pal who is a catholic and comes from donegal said the orange order parades through there, and lots of catholics come out to watch it. he also said that gerry adams and his cronies sent people to try and disrupt the parade, but most catholics wanted nothing to do with adams.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

my pal who is a catholic and comes from donegal said the orange order parades through there, and lots of catholics come out to watch it. he also said that gerry adams and his cronies sent people to try and disrupt the parade, but most catholics wanted nothing to do with adams.

And that is a fact espoused by Ruth Dudley Edwards in her book The Faithful Tribe referred to earlier by M. The "Residents Groups" were led by people - some from outwith the neighbourhood - who just happened to be convicted IRA terrorists.

Adams has sworn y all means to end all aspects of British culture in Northern Ireland - the disruption of the parades is part of that process.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

my pal who is a catholic and comes from donegal said the orange order parades through there, and lots of catholics come out to watch it. he also said that gerry adams and his cronies sent people to try and disrupt the parade, but most catholics wanted nothing to do with adams.

m, get hold of RDE's book (I found it in the local library), she has a chapter about the parade in Donegal, and gives a blow by blow account of how SF/IRA created the Drumcree situation, it's a must read.

[minstral 5,375]

my pal who is a catholic and comes from donegal said the orange order parades through there, and lots of catholics come out to watch it. he also said that gerry adams and his cronies sent people to try and disrupt the parade, but most catholics wanted nothing to do with adams.

m, get hold of RDE's book (I found it in the local library), she has a chapter about the parade in Donegal, and gives a blow by blow account of how SF/IRA created the Drumcree situation, it's a must read.

will go to the library tomorrow see if its there looks a good read.

[Jelle1880 225]

rangers must be proud of their connection with the orange order

The fact that the steps Rangers have taken in recent years to eradicate problems with in our support - I doubt that Rangers would be happy to be linked with the Orange Order in the way we used to be. The bowl is part of history.

But to link ourselves with a group who openly denounce catholics, is taken a step backwards.

Not a member of the Orange Order but can you give me a link or qutoe where they do so?

Not doubting it, I just always thought that they existed to celebrate the reformation

Lived on Dumbarton Road for near on 2 years, so heard many,many an Orange March go past my windows, with No Pope Of Rome being given laldy - Strikes me as pretty anti-catholic.

Because they denounce the leadership of a senile old man who claims to be God's representative on earth ?

I don't know of members of the Orange Order who have said 'I don't like Catholics and I wish they burn in hell'.

There is a difference in not liking the Pope and denouncing catholics.

[davie1689 1]

Some excellent and interesting points.

Firstly can I say that it is part of every orangeman/womans initiation to abstain from unkind words or deeds towards Roman Catholics - its written in the very core of their beliefs.

I have no problems with them singing No Pope of Rome - they do exist after all to oppose the rule of the Church of Rome. ...it seems aptly appropriate that they should sing such a song.

I think it was Jiminez who touched on the demonisation of this organisation in recent years - its been an absolute witch hunt with little substance to the many accusations levelled against the OO or its members. I have little doubt who is behind much of this.

Perhaps if we look a little outwith the goldfish bowl of Glasgow we will actually see that the OO are not isolated in their opposition to the Roman Catholic Church...with some very credible organisations lining up to make charges or take issue with them...

For instance the World Health Organisation a couple of years ago were pursuing the Catholic Church for crimes against humanity for the lies and mis-information they were spreading regarding the use of condoms in Africa - such lies and conduct was openly exposed in a Panorama documentary a couple of years ago.

Many of the Equalities groups take real issue with the Catholic Church due to their continual diminuition of women and their continual castigation of gays (who can forget Cardinal O'Briens comments last year comparing gays to paedophiles ?) Pretty rich coming from a member of a church which actively covered up for years the abuse of children within the Catholic Church in America - threatening and bullying victims into silence until finally a Boston newspaper exposed the whole dreadful story.

Its not bigotted to detest the Catholic Church - their record after all is pretty poor - this is the same church which only 60 years ago was happy to enter into a pact with the fascists in Italy.

Our football club developed as a football club with a Protestant identity in response to the very pro-Cathloic/Irish nature of our rivals Celtic - the Orange Order being only one of a number of Protestant organisations welcomed at Ibrox. Furthermore we as a club confirmed that identity by playing matches in order to raise funds for Orange Halls and Lodges.

And therein lies the problem - you cant create such an identity over the years and then expect to drop it at the drop of a hat - nor expect fans to drop such associations or connections. What I find particularly sad is that our club have dropped some of these connections merely through pressure - not because of any bona fide evidence in respect of the organisations we were associated with. Particularly when some of those applying the pressure were themselves guilty of stereotyping and bigotry.

I do think times have changed with regard to what we are as a club. We are no longer the Protestant bastion we were at one time - in fact Im sure we have fielded teams with more Catholics than Protestant in it. And its positive to see some of the posters on here who are Catholics themselves have been attracted to follow Rangers.

However that does not stop us having a very strong Protestant heritage and its evident from our song repertoire that such a heritage is still a very strong part for a sizeable section of our support and I think only the secularisation of society in the coming years may cause it to diminish.

kool post friend

can i just ask

what games did Glasgow Rangers play to raise money for the orange order?

ie orange halls and lodges

new one on me

but as they say every day is a skool day

[Cumbria_blue 51]

my pal who is a catholic and comes from donegal said the orange order parades through there, and lots of catholics come out to watch it. he also said that gerry adams and his cronies sent people to try and disrupt the parade, but most catholics wanted nothing to do with adams.

The OO parade all over the Republic, with no trouble at all.

My mate once lived in county Armagh in a mixed village, and he says that there were catholics in the flute band who marched with the parade, as otherwise there wouldn't have been enough people in the band.

[minstral 5,375]

my pal who is a catholic and comes from donegal said the orange order parades through there, and lots of catholics come out to watch it. he also said that gerry adams and his cronies sent people to try and disrupt the parade, but most catholics wanted nothing to do with adams.

The OO parade all over the Republic, with no trouble at all.

My mate once lived in county Armagh in a mixed village, and he says that there were catholics in the flute band who marched with the parade, as otherwise there wouldn't have been enough people in the band.

its amazing and shows people can get on together, but it was the likes of adams and the resident groups who set out to cause trouble just like drumcree.