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D'Artagnan

I am what I am

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Oh dear oh dear oh dear......

Quite a spectacular leap some of us have made here.... to the point of physical violence !!!

The point which some of you have misinterpreted was a follow on from Dannys thread regarding the variance in opinions on forums such as these compared to what is actually experienced at Ibrox.

I would suspect that some of the things I have read on here would not go down well in establishments such as the Mermaid....but the point is that they are never espoused.....which makes me question at times the validity of the expression or in some cases whether the poster is in fact a bear. I say this given the no. of timmy imposters who have been visiting this site recently.

Furthermore Im not suggesting anyone "shut up" in the real world...Im saying that those who espouse fairly radical or unconventional views appear not to do so when they are in the company of genuine Bears....I wonder why that is ? Is it because they are imposters or to use example from Yellowcross...."cowards" ?

I would suggest that those of us who hold differing views in the main go to Ibrox to see the football - not to start a fight -

Because to those fans it is ALL about the football - whether we are more than a club any more - that is for another thread.

It is like Christians - just because you don't believe in God, does not mean you go around and try to convince Christians that he does not exist.

Whatever happened to live and let live?

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Sorry Frankie but that proves nothing.

Apparently there's a letter from UEFA where we as a club are explicitly prohibited from singing it.

I'd love to see a copy!

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Of course the very notion of freedom of thought or expression is quite alien to timmy...perhaps thats why so many of them are outed so quickly.

For all his faults the Fish highlighted a very important point – that some of the opinions or beliefs expressed on this message boards were totally alien to that expressed on supporters clubs or buses. I would certainly vouch for that...if certain posters were to espouse their views or opinions in the Mermaid on a Saturday afternoon then I can assure you they would be short lived beliefs.

So is freedom of thought/expression as alien in the Mermaid for example as you suggest it is to timmy..? That is how it sounds D'Art. I am uncomfortable with that kind of intolerance.

Freedom of thought/expression is a very important principle to me and if that principle is upheld better on forums like RM than it is on certain buses/clubs/pubs etc then that is to the credit of the forums etc.

As the song goes:

Life's not worth a damn till you can shout out

I am what I am

ie life aint worth a damn without freedom of thought/expression.

I took that to mean something slightly different, in another way of putting it

* Would you Go to a mosque and tell them their beliefs and principles and ideas were wrong? (or vice versa of course)

* Would you go to a vegans meeting and expect them to serve you meat?

* would you go to a jewish bar and promote hitler as a good guy?

Would you do any of these, and NOT expect a negative reaction? Of course not, so, why would you go to a Rangers bar or bus or forum, and, promote views held, mainly by those in the mhedia and across the way as how Rangers fans should act, and NOT expect some kind of reaction?

Seems fairly obvious to me

All your examples are strangers from one culture going into it and shouting their mouth off in an aggressive and patronsing way (eg a christian going to a mosque, a meat eater going to a veggie meeting, a nazi going to a jewish bar etc) and are hardly the same thing as a Rangers fan on a Rangers forum - or in a club - expressing an opinion when asked or in an open discussion that may not be mainstream etc. You have twisted/simplified it.

And, if you are going to uphold freedom of thought or expression as a value worth having - and criticise others for lacking it - then you must always uphold it and always condemn those that don't, even your own etc - otherwise your principles count for nought.

And, ultimately - if pressed for your opinion/version of the truth then you should be man enough to state it without fear regardless of the company/situation you are in - otherwise you are a coward.

(tu) I did indeed simplify it, not twist it. It is basic common sense. Sure everyone has the right to say and believe what they like, but, essentially what you are advocating is the right to stir/cause trouble? The perfect "simple" example of that, is when Boruc delibrately stirs at old firm games! With the press/police all coming down on him, its called inciting a riot/trouble, and, just as bad as the result.

We have fans on here who DO seem to be from completely different cultures, strangers to what a huge number of Bears believe, which, in the grand scheme of things IS a good thing, however, not always, and the examples used above, were used for a reason or 2.

* the christion/mosque situation - we have some devout protestants, aethiest, catholics and muslims (and others I am sure) all in our support, however, the 1 section with the longest common knowedge association with the club is singled out for harrassment/attack/any other phrase you choose both by the press, celtic fans, and, also their fellow bears. "Dinosaurs", "unwanted" "leftin the past" etc etc? That is unfair. Also, that is what leads, in my ipinoon, to the who tim-pos-ter thing, since, it is not expected from a fellow bear.

* the Jew/Nazi part - We have Irish support, unionist support, Nationalist support, International support, all different cultures, one thing in common, a love of Rangers. However, unionist are lumped together with the protestant support, even if they are not, and, again, this is a section of the support vocally told they have no place in the support.

Now, you may not agree with those beliefs, but, they have every much right to be here, and, so they are. The less religious, PC people, which as a rule are younger, may not care about this side of things, but, they are also more vocal about "moving on" etc, which will offend everyone who doesnt believe this, and, it is not a minority

I agre with the last part, but, the facts are, If you are in a place with strong beliefs, and, you choose, as is you right, to tell them they are wrong and the complete opposite is true/right, which happens what, hourly on here?, then, what is to be expected bar a negative reaction?

Double standards Outlaw - you have lumped the "Less Religious and PC crowd together - you can be one without the other

See how that works?

This whole argument actually is full of double standards on both sides

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RE: Billy Boys

This was the initial decision where they found us not guilty:

http://www.uefa.com/uefa/Keytopics/kind=51...sId=413514.html

This is the upheld decision:

http://www.uefa.com/uefa/Keytopics/kind=51...sId=424237.html

Right so where does it say it's banned then ? :sherlock:

I think it's pretty obvious that considering the initial charges were directly related to our version of the song, and the initial decision over-turned in terms of that, the line in the second release: "Rangers have been fined €19,500 and severely warned about their responsibility for any future misconduct by their fans in relation to sectarian and discriminatory behaviour"; suggests the song is indeed banned.

Add in the fact you'll be arrested for using the term and probably banned from Ibrox as well, unfortunately the status quo isn't something that's going to be changed easily.

When one considers the whole sectarianism sham in this country, then we've been harshly dealt with so I think we should concentrate our efforts on that as the political and footballing authority discrepancies within the subject are quite frankly disgraceful.

Indeed, that subject was something I personally spent the last 6-8 months working on to prepare a report into the obvious double standards and mischief-making. Hopefully we'll see that report soon.

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i hope you are not saying that violence would be used, i never have threatened people with violence, and never will do, but they would chase you and tell you to get lost with some of the things that you were saying.

I can take getting told to get lost as easily as I can give it. I don't know if you meant to insinuate violence, but it disnae matter because the message was clear - that Rangers folk who disagree with elements of our history that you want retained should be careful what they say around you and those like you.

I bet we would get along just fine. Nae kidding.

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Sorry Frankie but that proves nothing.

Apperently there's a letter from UEFA where we as a club are explicitly prohibited from singing it.

I'd love to see a copy!

Rangers were provided with a lengthy document regarding the charge/fine. I believe my former colleagues who represented the RST at the meeting with the club (as well as other fan groups) had sight of this document.

The song is banned.

As such, like I said above, rather than waste time on conspiracy theories about this fact, it's much better the aggrieved parties concentrate on the parts of the subject that can be addressed through practical action.

:)

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I have no problem with the Orangemen and practicing Protestants amongst our support, nor do I have an issue with their expression of such beliefs. However, as an atheist, I can't genuinely be as enthusiastically part of that of those fellow supporters, but that's what we are, fellow supporters. Let us not forget that although this identity has become part of our history, it did so from the 20's onward and that originally, the club had no such identity.

They can count on my support in fighting the propaganda of timmy and Spiers. I do not expect them to give up their support of their team for these ideals, but don't expect the numerous others who are non-Protestant to leave because they're not in the Orange Order. We are a broad church, more ethnically diverse than the bigots of the east end according to Glasgow City Council's own studies(bet they regret that) and that's something we should be proud of. One of my favourite tales of others supporting Rangers is (Mister) Satay Singh, promising to name his son after the next Rangers scorer. His son is called Oleg Kuznetzov Singh! I love that.

Having got UEFA off our backs, we should stand united and not bow to the media pressure for us to go further. We should not fall for the old "divide and rule" strategy. Don't be ashamed of your heritage, but don't expect me to be ashamed of my beliefs either and don't expect me to walk away from the club I love. You don't love it anymore than me.

(tu) Thats well said Oleg, I highlighted some great parts

Nah, you dont need to to be enthusiastic, in fact to do so would not be right.

2nd highlighted part - I dont think anyone has suggested that, the only suggestions have been for those you originally described to leave <cr>

Your last paragraph is great!! Nobody expects you to, likewise, nobody else should be expected to. agree?

Your views stated here are, in my opinion, how it should be! However, the intolerance is mainly shown towards the protestant/orange/unionist side, which, for me is just wrong.

Come on Outlaw - there is equal intolerance here from both sides - every time someone posts something that is less enthusiastic about the clubs Past Protestant links, they get berated by the usual suspects. And likewise in return, every thread started from the other side is countered with equal distaste

There is no winner in this argument, and there wont be one when we argue the same points on another thread next week

Can't wait for the season to start so we can drop this pish

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Sorry Frankie but that proves nothing.

Apperently there's a letter from UEFA where we as a club are explicitly prohibited from singing it.

I'd love to see a copy!

Rangers were provided with a lengthy document regarding the charge/fine. I believe my former colleagues who represented the RST at the meeting with the club (as well as other fan groups) had sight of this document.

The song is banned.

As such, like I said above, rather than waste time on conspiracy theories about this fact, it's much better the aggrieved parties concentrate on the parts of the subject that can be addressed through practical action.

:)

So it was previewed amongst a group of people willing to meet Murray and have their tummies tickled?

And I include Mark in that!

But not the average punter?

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Look this thread started with this comment near the top: " Of course the very notion of freedom of thought or expression is quite alien to timmy...perhaps thats why so many of them are outed so quickly."

And has mostly involved posters supporting a position whereby "freedom of thought or expression" is denied by bears in clubs/buses/forums to other bears (handwringers) who have unconventional views.

Irony anyone?

I'll tell you what is more ironic YC....there have been a no. of timposters on here recently spreading their particular brand of hatred and to some extent personal abuse which has inconvienced some users.....yet your criticism seems to be reserved for Bears

LOL - why exactly is that ironic?

It is not ironic at all lol

Just another example of, You dont agree with me - maybe you are a Tim!

Let's not resort to that eh?

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RE: Billy Boys

This was the initial decision where they found us not guilty:

http://www.uefa.com/uefa/Keytopics/kind=51...sId=413514.html

This is the upheld decision:

http://www.uefa.com/uefa/Keytopics/kind=51...sId=424237.html

Right so where does it say it's banned then ? :sherlock:

I think it's pretty obvious that considering the initial charges were directly related to our version of the song, and the initial decision over-turned in terms of that, the line in the second release: "Rangers have been fined €19,500 and severely warned about their responsibility for any future misconduct by their fans in relation to sectarian and discriminatory behaviour"; suggests the song is indeed banned.

Add in the fact you'll be arrested for using the term and probably banned from Ibrox as well, unfortunately the status quo isn't something that's going to be changed easily.

When one considers the whole sectarianism sham in this country, then we've been harshly dealt with so I think we should concentrate our efforts on that as the political and footballing authority discrepancies within the subject are quite frankly disgraceful.

Indeed, that subject was something I personally spent the last 6-8 months working on to prepare a report into the obvious double standards and mischief-making. Hopefully we'll see that report soon.

It's obvious that the song is not banned by UEFA, this has been politically motivated by jhourno MOPES either mcnee, keevins and possibly the trojan horse speirs and more likely the whole lot of them, 'we heard it on the television and we were shamed' ? So we have the situation it's banned only here in Scotland by word of mouth to the police on the day. Have our management got a lot to answer for on this one or what ? :sherlock: PS - There is nothing officially in writing banning anywhere is there ? Just capitulation of the most cowardly kind !

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i hope you are not saying that violence would be used, i never have threatened people with violence, and never will do, but they would chase you and tell you to get lost with some of the things that you were saying.

I can take getting told to get lost as easily as I can give it. I don't know if you meant to insinuate violence, but it disnae matter because the message was clear - that Rangers folk who disagree with elements of our history that you want retained should be careful what they say around you and those like you.

I bet we would get along just fine. Nae kidding.

moses i dont know how you linked my name with violence, i dont agree with violence, as i would rather argue my point. all i am saying is ibrox is a big platform for fans who dont want to be part of our protestant culture, to educate us the minority according to some posters who are still living in the past. if as they say we are the minority why are the protestant songs sung the loudest. as for the pubs and clubs both of us know you have to be careful what is said, or you could soon attract trouble, but violence is not for me as i am not that type of person, i go to watch my team but will always stand up for our traditions without violence.

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So it was previewed amongst a group of people willing to meet Murray and have their tummies tickled?

And I include Mark in that!

But not the average punter?

I doubt anyone had their tummies tickled. They met to address a very serious issue with regard to the fine detailed above.

If you want to see the full judgement document, I suggest you contact the club, the RST and/or UEFA if you don't believe your representatives or the other organisations involved.

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Look this thread started with this comment near the top: " Of course the very notion of freedom of thought or expression is quite alien to timmy...perhaps thats why so many of them are outed so quickly."

And has mostly involved posters supporting a position whereby "freedom of thought or expression" is denied by bears in clubs/buses/forums to other bears (handwringers) who have unconventional views.

Irony anyone?

I'll tell you what is more ironic YC....there have been a no. of timposters on here recently spreading their particular brand of hatred and to some extent personal abuse which has inconvienced some users.....yet your criticism seems to be reserved for Bears

LOL - why exactly is that ironic?

It is not ironic at all lol

Just another example of, You dont agree with me - maybe you are a Tim!

Let's not resort to that eh?

How bloody ironic!

vasily conveniently misses the point again doh

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It's obvious that the song is not banned by UEFA, this has been politically motivated by jhourno MOPES either mcnee, keevins and possibly the trojan horse speirs and more likely the whole lot of them, 'we heard it on the television and we were shamed' ? So we have the situation it's banned only here in Scotland by word of mouth to the police on the day. Have our management got a lot to answer for on this one or what ? :sherlock:

The song is banned by UEFA - but of course it was because of pressure from the media and politicians in this country.

What are you doing to address the inconsistency?

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So it was previewed amongst a group of people willing to meet Murray and have their tummies tickled?

And I include Mark in that!

But not the average punter?

I doubt anyone had their tummies tickled. They met to address a very serious issue with regard to the fine detailed above.

If you want to see the full judgement document, I suggest you contact the club, the RST and/or UEFA if you don't believe your representatives or the other organisations involved.

OK Frankie I will do. As I've done before.

Still to see this document you speak of, not doubting its existence but I'd imagine such a sorry milestone in our history should be easily accessible to all

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Look this thread started with this comment near the top: " Of course the very notion of freedom of thought or expression is quite alien to timmy...perhaps thats why so many of them are outed so quickly."

And has mostly involved posters supporting a position whereby "freedom of thought or expression" is denied by bears in clubs/buses/forums to other bears (handwringers) who have unconventional views.

Irony anyone?

I'll tell you what is more ironic YC....there have been a no. of timposters on here recently spreading their particular brand of hatred and to some extent personal abuse which has inconvienced some users.....yet your criticism seems to be reserved for Bears

LOL - why exactly is that ironic?

It is not ironic at all lol

Just another example of, You dont agree with me - maybe you are a Tim!

Let's not resort to that eh?

How bloody ironic!

vasily conveniently misses the point again doh

Hi Jim - how you doing this fine evening?

I didn't miss the point, my fine fellow, I just chose to discuss another aspect of the argument

I utterly detest Tim calling as a tool during a debate

Childish comebacks, like your last one, I can take a little better though

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OK Frankie I will do. As I've done before.

Still to see this document you speak of, not doubting its existence but I'd imagine such a sorry milestone in our history should be easily accessible to all

I've not seen the document either but I don't need to be perfectly honest. It's obvious from the two links above the song is banned.

Like I say, people genuinely annoyed by the issue shouldn't waste time debating who banned it, but actually address the genuine problems with double-standards regarding the subject.

The trail leads to the very top.

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I have no problem with the Orangemen and practicing Protestants amongst our support, nor do I have an issue with their expression of such beliefs. However, as an atheist, I can't genuinely be as enthusiastically part of that of those fellow supporters, but that's what we are, fellow supporters. Let us not forget that although this identity has become part of our history, it did so from the 20's onward and that originally, the club had no such identity.

They can count on my support in fighting the propaganda of timmy and Spiers. I do not expect them to give up their support of their team for these ideals, but don't expect the numerous others who are non-Protestant to leave because they're not in the Orange Order. We are a broad church, more ethnically diverse than the bigots of the east end according to Glasgow City Council's own studies(bet they regret that) and that's something we should be proud of. One of my favourite tales of others supporting Rangers is (Mister) Satay Singh, promising to name his son after the next Rangers scorer. His son is called Oleg Kuznetzov Singh! I love that.

Having got UEFA off our backs, we should stand united and not bow to the media pressure for us to go further. We should not fall for the old "divide and rule" strategy. Don't be ashamed of your heritage, but don't expect me to be ashamed of my beliefs either and don't expect me to walk away from the club I love. You don't love it anymore than me.

(tu) Thats well said Oleg, I highlighted some great parts

Nah, you dont need to to be enthusiastic, in fact to do so would not be right.

2nd highlighted part - I dont think anyone has suggested that, the only suggestions have been for those you originally described to leave <cr>

Your last paragraph is great!! Nobody expects you to, likewise, nobody else should be expected to. agree?

Your views stated here are, in my opinion, how it should be! However, the intolerance is mainly shown towards the protestant/orange/unionist side, which, for me is just wrong.

Come on Outlaw - there is equal intolerance here from both sides - every time someone posts something that is less enthusiastic about the clubs Past Protestant links, they get berated by the usual suspects. And likewise in return, every thread started from the other side is countered with equal distaste

There is no winner in this argument, and there wont be one when we argue the same points on another thread next week

Can't wait for the season to start so we can drop this pish

How come you always miss the point?

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Of course the very notion of freedom of thought or expression is quite alien to timmy...perhaps thats why so many of them are outed so quickly.

For all his faults the Fish highlighted a very important point – that some of the opinions or beliefs expressed on this message boards were totally alien to that expressed on supporters clubs or buses. I would certainly vouch for that...if certain posters were to espouse their views or opinions in the Mermaid on a Saturday afternoon then I can assure you they would be short lived beliefs.

So is freedom of thought/expression as alien in the Mermaid for example as you suggest it is to timmy..? That is how it sounds D'Art. I am uncomfortable with that kind of intolerance.

Freedom of thought/expression is a very important principle to me and if that principle is upheld better on forums like RM than it is on certain buses/clubs/pubs etc then that is to the credit of the forums etc.

As the song goes:

Life's not worth a damn till you can shout out

I am what I am

ie life aint worth a damn without freedom of thought/expression.

I took that to mean something slightly different, in another way of putting it

* Would you Go to a mosque and tell them their beliefs and principles and ideas were wrong? (or vice versa of course)

* Would you go to a vegans meeting and expect them to serve you meat?

* would you go to a jewish bar and promote hitler as a good guy?

Would you do any of these, and NOT expect a negative reaction? Of course not, so, why would you go to a Rangers bar or bus or forum, and, promote views held, mainly by those in the mhedia and across the way as how Rangers fans should act, and NOT expect some kind of reaction?

Seems fairly obvious to me

All your examples are strangers from one culture going into it and shouting their mouth off in an aggressive and patronsing way (eg a christian going to a mosque, a meat eater going to a veggie meeting, a nazi going to a jewish bar etc) and are hardly the same thing as a Rangers fan on a Rangers forum - or in a club - expressing an opinion when asked or in an open discussion that may not be mainstream etc. You have twisted/simplified it.

And, if you are going to uphold freedom of thought or expression as a value worth having - and criticise others for lacking it - then you must always uphold it and always condemn those that don't, even your own etc - otherwise your principles count for nought.

And, ultimately - if pressed for your opinion/version of the truth then you should be man enough to state it without fear regardless of the company/situation you are in - otherwise you are a coward.

(tu) I did indeed simplify it, not twist it. It is basic common sense. Sure everyone has the right to say and believe what they like, but, essentially what you are advocating is the right to stir/cause trouble? The perfect "simple" example of that, is when Boruc delibrately stirs at old firm games! With the press/police all coming down on him, its called inciting a riot/trouble, and, just as bad as the result.

We have fans on here who DO seem to be from completely different cultures, strangers to what a huge number of Bears believe, which, in the grand scheme of things IS a good thing, however, not always, and the examples used above, were used for a reason or 2.

* the christion/mosque situation - we have some devout protestants, aethiest, catholics and muslims (and others I am sure) all in our support, however, the 1 section with the longest common knowedge association with the club is singled out for harrassment/attack/any other phrase you choose both by the press, celtic fans, and, also their fellow bears. "Dinosaurs", "unwanted" "leftin the past" etc etc? That is unfair. Also, that is what leads, in my ipinoon, to the who tim-pos-ter thing, since, it is not expected from a fellow bear.

* the Jew/Nazi part - We have Irish support, unionist support, Nationalist support, International support, all different cultures, one thing in common, a love of Rangers. However, unionist are lumped together with the protestant support, even if they are not, and, again, this is a section of the support vocally told they have no place in the support.

Now, you may not agree with those beliefs, but, they have every much right to be here, and, so they are. The less religious, PC people, which as a rule are younger, may not care about this side of things, but, they are also more vocal about "moving on" etc, which will offend everyone who doesnt believe this, and, it is not a minority

I agre with the last part, but, the facts are, If you are in a place with strong beliefs, and, you choose, as is you right, to tell them they are wrong and the complete opposite is true/right, which happens what, hourly on here?, then, what is to be expected bar a negative reaction?

Double standards Outlaw - you have lumped the "Less Religious and PC crowd together - you can be one without the other

See how that works?

This whole argument actually is full of double standards on both sides

It was an either or, jeez, you even said so yourself. No double standards, and, again, jumping to conclusions when you dont know which side i am on? :craphead:

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Hi Jim - how you doing this fine evening?

I didn't miss the point, my fine fellow, I just chose to discuss another aspect of the argument

I utterly detest Tim calling as a tool during a debate

Childish comebacks, like your last one, I can take a little better though

None of your business! :P

So you chose to take the discussion of in a tangent? I utterly loathe the fact that there are ambulance chasers here and we aren't free to highlite that very fact yet good bears are being labeled 'bigots' etc without fear of intervention.

call that childish! I'd call it a lack of ignorance

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...Im saying that those who espouse fairly radical or unconventional views appear not to do so when they are in the company of genuine Bears....

I'm a genuine Bear, but I disagree with other Rangers supporters all the time about this and that - in person and all! I've yet to have a single, fellow Ranger man threaten to twat me one for my views.

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It's obvious that the song is not banned by UEFA, this has been politically motivated by jhourno MOPES either mcnee, keevins and possibly the trojan horse speirs and more likely the whole lot of them, 'we heard it on the television and we were shamed' ? So we have the situation it's banned only here in Scotland by word of mouth to the police on the day. Have our management got a lot to answer for on this one or what ? :sherlock:

The song is banned by UEFA - but of course it was because of pressure from the media and politicians in this country.

What are you doing to address the inconsistency?

As an individual I won't say but you have gave me an idea. More to the point what have the hierarchy done to address this inconsistency ? Not a lot Eh ? Been going on for a long time now and the gaps in the battlements get wider every day ? :sherlock:

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Look this thread started with this comment near the top: " Of course the very notion of freedom of thought or expression is quite alien to timmy...perhaps thats why so many of them are outed so quickly."

And has mostly involved posters supporting a position whereby "freedom of thought or expression" is denied by bears in clubs/buses/forums to other bears (handwringers) who have unconventional views.

Irony anyone?

I'll tell you what is more ironic YC....there have been a no. of timposters on here recently spreading their particular brand of hatred and to some extent personal abuse which has inconvienced some users.....yet your criticism seems to be reserved for Bears

LOL - why exactly is that ironic?

It is not ironic at all lol

Just another example of, You dont agree with me - maybe you are a Tim!

Let's not resort to that eh?

I understood what D'Art was saying and addressed it earlier.

However, I certainly didn't think that D'Art was resorting to calling me a tim.

I respect D'Art and his commitment/conviction and was only debating the point about "freedom of thought/expression".

No more, no less.

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