Bronzy

I said similar, not the same. It feels worse because of how close together the poor results have been, but the end result is the same. And it’s not just last season, but every other season preceding it bar 55. My point is that regardless of who the manager is, this keeps happening.

Respect Sterling’s honesty, but it says it all about this squad.

Even if it were true, he still won three titles with two different clubs, and was on his way to a fourth with Brugge when he left to go to Monaco. I see it more as a positive - his teams were so far ahead that they could afford to drop points and still win the league.

1 win in our last 5. 9 scored and 9 conceded. 10 points dropped. Similar to the 22/23 collapse under Gio where we dropped 12 points from 15 games. Similar to the 21/22 post winter collapse under Gio where we got 3 wins from 8. Similar to the 19/20 post winter collapse under Gerrard where we got 3 wins from 8. Similar to the 18/19 post winter collapse under Gerrard where we got 5 wins from 10. Wonder when the penny will finally drop?

That sounds like the opposite of what Genk and Brugge fans say about him, they seem to love him and say how he overhauled their underachieving squads and replaced them with young, hungry players. Even Beveren fans say he got them playing the best football they can remember, and he was only there for 6 months. Just checked and the average age of his signings in first summer window at Genk was 22, same in his first summer window at Brugge. We desperately need younger players with something to prove so that is music to my ears.

It’s not just that they’ve let us down season after season, though that is a major factor. Almost every player has a shelf life at a club - how many players other than McGregor do Celtic still have from when Lennon was in charge? Taylor and Forrest are the only ones that spring to mind, and it’s not a coincidence that they’re Scottish. After a while, players (especially ones who aren’t from here) need a change of scenery or they lose their desire and hunger, and that is extremely apparent with our team. It’s too far gone with the fans as well now, we’re just sick of the sight of them. Our squad management since we won 55 has been a joke tbh. Gerrard started this mentality of “keeping the band together”, Wilson and Beale continued it and it has held us back for years now. We just can’t seem to let go of players, which is mystifying considering how little they’ve won. Morelos and Kent going for nothing were the most egregious examples of that mentality. What gives me some optimism is that Clement signed plenty of young, hungry players and got rid of plenty at Genk and Brugge, which won him leagues there, Postecoglou did the same and it won him leagues here. If the board don’t give Clement the opportunity to do the same thing here, then I give up.

Like I said in another thread, the summer will show how he really feels about this team. The trouble is no matter what team he selects, none of them seem to be trying or working, so I don’t really blame him for throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. Managers generally always praise in public, criticise in private - it’s something Mourinho is brilliant at. The ones that don’t, like Derek Adams, rarely last long. As much as supporters don’t like it, I understand why it’s done. Like I say, summer will show if he truly believes what he said after tonight’s game.

That’s fair, but I try to look at it another way - if Postecoglou had joined us in November, would we be ahead or still be in a title race with this squad? I doubt it, because even though his style of play hoovered up trophies in Scotland, our players would never be able to execute it. Every Belgian football fan I’ve read online has said that Clement’s football is attacking and great to watch - unless he’s suddenly decided to chuck the style that won him several leagues there, he simply doesn’t have the players to play it. Clement should get a chance in the summer to sign the players that fit his system, then we can better judge how he is as a manager.

A few of the comments I’ve read (not yours btw) do concern me that some people’s view of him will be coloured going into next season, which I don’t think is fair (it happens all the time but I still disagree with it). What gives me hope is that in his first summer windows at Genk and Brugge, he overhauled the squad then went on to win the league - if that means we need to sell the likes of Butland as well to fund it, then so be it.

This is why managers often don’t want to come in halfway through a season. They are judged with a team that isn’t theirs, and one that they haven’t had a full pre-season to change and mould. I said the same with Gio and Beale and I’ll say it again for Clement - I don’t think it’s fair to overly criticise the manager until he has a full summer window and pre-season to put his own stamp on the team.

Think I’d genuinely consider giving up my ST if that happened

From what I’ve read from fans in Belgium, he likes to utilise his whole squad and rotate to keep them fresh and hungry. Postecoglou is similar. Unfortunately he’s a got a squad of guys who have no hunger and aren’t good enough.

That’s what pisses me off about these players - they have a miraculous ability to get the support sick of the manager when it should be them getting the abuse. I’d almost admire them for it if they didn’t play for my team. Depressingly like Man Utd in that respect.

Not really, it shows a winning mentality. Feyenoord fans warned us that Gio’s style of play was piss poor and that he was fortunate that the season he won the league Ajax were in the middle of a rebuild. From what I’ve seen, there’s been nothing but positive comments about Clement from Genk and Brugge fans. They did the same to Gerrard, Gio and Beale, they collapse when the going gets tough. I just find it pointless that the manager is getting it in the neck when the core of our team is so poor. Like Clement said, he isn’t a miracle worker - the players have reverted to type.

It’s pointless getting annoyed at some throwaway lines he says after a match. His actions in the summer will show us how he really feels.

As I said in the match thread, Clement won three league titles in the three full seasons he had in Belgium, and was on his way to a fourth when he left to go to Monaco. He’s probably the most successful manager we can get at our level. If he can’t get these players to put an effort in, who will? The board need to give him the resources to clear out the decks and build his own team - they let Beale do what he wanted, so Clement needs that opportunity as well.

Clement won three league titles in the three full seasons he had in Belgium, and was on his way to a fourth when he left to go to Monaco. He’s probably the most successful manager we can get at our level. We can’t keep sacking managers in the hope we find one that works with these players. The players are rotten and no manager can cover for that. We can absolutely clear the lot out without breaking the bank - Postecoglou did it in the summer he joined, and I really hope Clement follows suit because these guys get managers the sack.

We’re four managers in now. How long until we accept that it’s the players and that the core is simply rotten?

Would suggest that most of the time it’s the players, not the manager.

It’s something which I think people fundamentally misunderstand when they hear the phrase “respecting opponents” - to respect your opponent is to understand their strengths and weaknesses and exploit them accordingly, it does not mean to cower in fear or to sit in because you’re worried about how good they are. Far too often we disrespect opponents by assuming they’re just rubbish, and leave huge gaps in behind because we assume that they won’t take advantage of them. We quite often fail to do the basics because our players think you don’t need to do the basics to beat these teams, and that lack of respect translates to us not bothering to track back or mark players when they counter attack. It’s unfounded arrogance considering this squad haven’t won very much.

Extremely tbh, I’m clearly at the bottom of the admin/mod hierarchy.

Ooh, admin friends!

Former casual, now if you wish, come and see me, say this to my face, i bet you wouldn't as you're a shitebag like that wee BABN cunt.

Too many defeatists on here fs it's only Dundee we're playing not fucking Barca, they only look good because we've been shite this season, we're more than capable of going up there tonight and turning them over!