yellowcross 5 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 We should band together, celebrate our past and move forward to the future as a tolerant support rather than the bigots we are made out to be. Accept that the World has moved on since the old days but in no way forget our history and tradition. We are all Rangers fans after all and this antagonism in unnecessary, our club has enough enemies without our support splitting into factions. Nice, idealistic, utopian sentiments. Unfortunately, the only thing that makes people bury their differences and get along together is... war, famine, disaster, plague, carnage, death, lsd in the water supply, alien invasion, apocalypse etc. "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidCF2 29 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 To be honest Im not really sure what it is we have to "Move on" from and "Let go". When people say this its as if we have something to be ashamed of or feel guilty about. I accept the Rangers support isnt one voice any more, by any stretch of the imagination, but if the more "New skool" were as open minded as they make out they should really be accepting and getting on with the fact that that theres still a large percentage that will hold on to traditions/beliefs/songs etc and accept it, rather than constantly try so achingly hard to appear radical. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluepeter9 5,167 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 How I see this debate: We, the current fans, set the agenda for the future. In our future we all want to see Rnagers maintain their sporting leadership, particularily in Scotland but all be competitive on a European basis. How is this best served - a strong fan base. (Up to this point I expect no real dissent). The debate is how do we achieve that. Some think it is by entrenching our selves in Protestant and Unionist causes - some dont. I personally think we need to embrace and engage people on a different level from religion and politics (and it particular religion as the church on all fronts is contracting). Therefore I support dropping, what I see as the baggage of lotalist, unionist and the protestant causes. I also find the fact that we want to take some moral highground aginst them while maintaining a 'up to our knees in fe****n blood' stance. That is not the moral high ground that is the same cess pit of intolerance and hatred that we say we want to avoid. What is important to most fans is the future of Rangers Football Club and as I say, take the football away from these causes and you would be left with nothing, take the religion and politics out of Rangers and you would still be left with the greatest football institution in the world (IMHO). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogzy 31,195 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Smells like T@rrier to me.. this type of bullshit pisses me off. Because someone does not agree with hating feenians/catholics/whatever, they are labled a T***,T****** and get all the sniff sniff pish. I love rangers and im proud of our history, BUT there is a time when we need to move on from the stuff that is holding us back ( and anyone who does not see that singing banned songs and all this religous hate is holding us back and tainting our public view. Then you are deluded). The guy isnt a TIM, he is a rangers FOOTBALL club supporter. ( important word - FOOTBALL) /rant p.s sorry for lack of spelling and puncuation. It's early and im pissed off Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bombaybadboy08 15,660 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 I can think of a few examples why we will never be united,well going by this board. 1.The Emirates - The travelling Bears absolutely tore apart on here for singing the Billy Boys,talk of points deductions etc - from Rangers fans. 2.Bucharest - Once again travelling Bears tore into without knowing anything about it,not for one minute condoning seat throwing but what went on behind the scenes had clearly pushed a button yet it was assumed they were just flinging seats for nothing -from Rangers fans. 3. Articles released attacking Rangers fans for TBB,The Famine Song,The fucking hokey cokey,we are urged to sing Rangers songs only -by Rangers fans. It's clear where the divide is and it's not from the side proud of the Protestant history,who are constantly being told to "move on", No you move on if you don't like it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
outlaw69uk 123 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 following on from Minstrals thread it has become clear that the media's image of the modern day Rangers support is at least 20 years out of date. We all know what our history and traditions are - and I'm not saying their is anything wrong with it. There are wide views and opinions surrounding our Protestant heritage and wether it is relevant anymore and this is the way it should be - the world, and this message board would be a little boring if everyone agreed. We should band together, celebrate our past and move forward to the future as a tolerant support rather than the bigots we are made out to be. Accept that the World has moved on since the old days but in no way forget our history and tradition. We are all Rangers fans after all and this antagonism in unnecessary, our club has enough enemies without our support splitting into factions. We Are The People Very well said. Its time to move forward. How? Enlighten us as to what that means, and what that entails? I think I have an idea Left foof, right foot, left foot right foot Its time to start making new history as well as just dwelling on the past. We arent just about our history. We should be making more so that in years to come people will say "despite of the problems Rangers were the greatest team" Nothing wrong with celebrating our History (the right way), im not saying that. I just think we ned to change with the times. History is more important than present in this climate. If you want youngsters growing up thinking yer Nacho Novo's, Allan McGregor's and Barry Fergusons are real Rangers men we're in serious trouble. Players like Baxter, Greig, Stein etc are what Rangers are all about. We cant let people forget that. I know this discussion is mostly around off the field beliefs but the Rangers support is the only real Unionist Voice in Scotland these days, sadly. Thats a great post mate. Reminds me of the saying, "How can you know who you are, if you dont know where you came from?" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
outlaw69uk 123 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 I dont think people are dwelling on the past, I think some are trying to eradicate it, therein lies the problem. As I said above, there is a reason people associate with the "history", because it was natural. So many seem to want to remove elements, I mean, there are still posts in this thread about "anti-Catholic songs"? Which ones? As for FTP? Well, he is a former Nazi, so, where is the problem with that? Also the man responsible for the upkeep of the crimen sollicitationis, the catholic church's document on how to cover up child abuse by its priests: "Sex Crimes and the Vatican" documentary Imagine that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jelle1880 225 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 How I see this debate: We, the current fans, set the agenda for the future. In our future we all want to see Rnagers maintain their sporting leadership, particularily in Scotland but all be competitive on a European basis. How is this best served - a strong fan base. (Up to this point I expect no real dissent). The debate is how do we achieve that. Some think it is by entrenching our selves in Protestant and Unionist causes - some dont. I personally think we need to embrace and engage people on a different level from religion and politics (and it particular religion as the church on all fronts is contracting). Therefore I support dropping, what I see as the baggage of lotalist, unionist and the protestant causes. I also find the fact that we want to take some moral highground aginst them while maintaining a 'up to our knees in fe****n blood' stance. That is not the moral high ground that is the same cess pit of intolerance and hatred that we say we want to avoid. What is important to most fans is the future of Rangers Football Club and as I say, take the football away from these causes and you would be left with nothing, take the religion and politics out of Rangers and you would still be left with the greatest football institution in the world (IMHO). We already embrace and engage people from all corners of the world, so why even mention it ? What you want to do is throw out all the things connected to the history of this club and reform it to just another empty, soulless football club. People like you always come up with 'It's holding us back' I say 'Fuck that', what's holding us back is the horrible level of football in Scotland and the refusal of clubs to change that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluepeter9 5,167 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 How I see this debate: We, the current fans, set the agenda for the future. In our future we all want to see Rnagers maintain their sporting leadership, particularily in Scotland but all be competitive on a European basis. How is this best served - a strong fan base. (Up to this point I expect no real dissent). The debate is how do we achieve that. Some think it is by entrenching our selves in Protestant and Unionist causes - some dont. I personally think we need to embrace and engage people on a different level from religion and politics (and it particular religion as the church on all fronts is contracting). Therefore I support dropping, what I see as the baggage of lotalist, unionist and the protestant causes. I also find the fact that we want to take some moral highground aginst them while maintaining a 'up to our knees in fe****n blood' stance. That is not the moral high ground that is the same cess pit of intolerance and hatred that we say we want to avoid. What is important to most fans is the future of Rangers Football Club and as I say, take the football away from these causes and you would be left with nothing, take the religion and politics out of Rangers and you would still be left with the greatest football institution in the world (IMHO). You never ease to amaze me with the kind of BS you come up with. We already embrace and engage people from all corners of the world, so why even mention it ? What you want to do is throw out all the things connected to the club and reform it to just another empty, soulless football club. People like that always come up with 'It's holding us back' I say 'Fuck that', what's holding us back is the horrible level of football in Scotland and the refusal of clubs to change that. My opinion may be 'bs' to you but at least I have one formed by myself that I am willing to communicate - your argument is 'fuck that'! Why not , at least, try to articulate how you see the future of the clubs support - at the very least some of the people I disagree with can put an argument together, some withoutt even resorting to swearing. (but not all) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZX750 31 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 How I see this debate: We, the current fans, set the agenda for the future. In our future we all want to see Rnagers maintain their sporting leadership, particularily in Scotland but all be competitive on a European basis. How is this best served - a strong fan base. (Up to this point I expect no real dissent). The debate is how do we achieve that. Some think it is by entrenching our selves in Protestant and Unionist causes - some dont. I personally think we need to embrace and engage people on a different level from religion and politics (and it particular religion as the church on all fronts is contracting). Therefore I support dropping, what I see as the baggage of lotalist, unionist and the protestant causes. I also find the fact that we want to take some moral highground aginst them while maintaining a 'up to our knees in fe****n blood' stance. That is not the moral high ground that is the same cess pit of intolerance and hatred that we say we want to avoid. What is important to most fans is the future of Rangers Football Club and as I say, take the football away from these causes and you would be left with nothing, take the religion and politics out of Rangers and you would still be left with the greatest football institution in the world (IMHO). You never ease to amaze me with the kind of BS you come up with. We already embrace and engage people from all corners of the world, so why even mention it ? What you want to do is throw out all the things connected to the club and reform it to just another empty, soulless football club. People like that always come up with 'It's holding us back' I say 'Fuck that', what's holding us back is the horrible level of football in Scotland and the refusal of clubs to change that. My opinion may be 'bs' to you but at least I have one formed by myself that I am willing to communicate - your argument is 'fuck that'! Why not , at least, try to articulate how you see the future of the clubs support - at the very least some of the people I disagree with can put an argument together, some withoutt even resorting to swearing. (but not all) Get off yer high horse mate an opinion is an opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jelle1880 225 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 How I see this debate: We, the current fans, set the agenda for the future. In our future we all want to see Rnagers maintain their sporting leadership, particularily in Scotland but all be competitive on a European basis. How is this best served - a strong fan base. (Up to this point I expect no real dissent). The debate is how do we achieve that. Some think it is by entrenching our selves in Protestant and Unionist causes - some dont. I personally think we need to embrace and engage people on a different level from religion and politics (and it particular religion as the church on all fronts is contracting). Therefore I support dropping, what I see as the baggage of lotalist, unionist and the protestant causes. I also find the fact that we want to take some moral highground aginst them while maintaining a 'up to our knees in fe****n blood' stance. That is not the moral high ground that is the same cess pit of intolerance and hatred that we say we want to avoid. What is important to most fans is the future of Rangers Football Club and as I say, take the football away from these causes and you would be left with nothing, take the religion and politics out of Rangers and you would still be left with the greatest football institution in the world (IMHO). You never ease to amaze me with the kind of BS you come up with. We already embrace and engage people from all corners of the world, so why even mention it ? What you want to do is throw out all the things connected to the club and reform it to just another empty, soulless football club. People like that always come up with 'It's holding us back' I say 'Fuck that', what's holding us back is the horrible level of football in Scotland and the refusal of clubs to change that. My opinion may be 'bs' to you but at least I have one formed by myself that I am willing to communicate - your argument is 'fuck that'! Why not , at least, try to articulate how you see the future of the clubs support - at the very least some of the people I disagree with can put an argument together, some withoutt even resorting to swearing. (but not all) Because there's no use reasoning with you, you have your opinion formed of what you want this club to become, I despise that idea. Simple, isn't it ? My idea of the future of this club is the same as, what I believe, the vast majority of fans. A club that is not ashamed of it's history as a Protestant (even though I'm an atheist), Loyalist and Unionist club. That doesn't mean condoning certain songs or add-ons, but it also doesn't mean that people should be ashamed to sing Loyalist songs inside the ground without certain people moaning about 'how it doesn't have anything to do with football'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluepeter9 5,167 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 How I see this debate: We, the current fans, set the agenda for the future. In our future we all want to see Rnagers maintain their sporting leadership, particularily in Scotland but all be competitive on a European basis. How is this best served - a strong fan base. (Up to this point I expect no real dissent). The debate is how do we achieve that. Some think it is by entrenching our selves in Protestant and Unionist causes - some dont. I personally think we need to embrace and engage people on a different level from religion and politics (and it particular religion as the church on all fronts is contracting). Therefore I support dropping, what I see as the baggage of lotalist, unionist and the protestant causes. I also find the fact that we want to take some moral highground aginst them while maintaining a 'up to our knees in fe****n blood' stance. That is not the moral high ground that is the same cess pit of intolerance and hatred that we say we want to avoid. What is important to most fans is the future of Rangers Football Club and as I say, take the football away from these causes and you would be left with nothing, take the religion and politics out of Rangers and you would still be left with the greatest football institution in the world (IMHO). You never ease to amaze me with the kind of BS you come up with. We already embrace and engage people from all corners of the world, so why even mention it ? What you want to do is throw out all the things connected to the club and reform it to just another empty, soulless football club. People like that always come up with 'It's holding us back' I say 'Fuck that', what's holding us back is the horrible level of football in Scotland and the refusal of clubs to change that. My opinion may be 'bs' to you but at least I have one formed by myself that I am willing to communicate - your argument is 'fuck that'! Why not , at least, try to articulate how you see the future of the clubs support - at the very least some of the people I disagree with can put an argument together, some withoutt even resorting to swearing. (but not all) Get off yer high horse mate an opinion is an opinion. If his opinion is to say 'fuck that' it may be an opinion ' (of sorts) but it is hardly a constructive argument that will sway me to 'his side' Also I note you got on a 'BIG HIGH HORSE' to tell me to get off mine - just got to laugh at the irony of it all sometimes! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jelle1880 225 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 How I see this debate: We, the current fans, set the agenda for the future. In our future we all want to see Rnagers maintain their sporting leadership, particularily in Scotland but all be competitive on a European basis. How is this best served - a strong fan base. (Up to this point I expect no real dissent). The debate is how do we achieve that. Some think it is by entrenching our selves in Protestant and Unionist causes - some dont. I personally think we need to embrace and engage people on a different level from religion and politics (and it particular religion as the church on all fronts is contracting). Therefore I support dropping, what I see as the baggage of lotalist, unionist and the protestant causes. I also find the fact that we want to take some moral highground aginst them while maintaining a 'up to our knees in fe****n blood' stance. That is not the moral high ground that is the same cess pit of intolerance and hatred that we say we want to avoid. What is important to most fans is the future of Rangers Football Club and as I say, take the football away from these causes and you would be left with nothing, take the religion and politics out of Rangers and you would still be left with the greatest football institution in the world (IMHO). You never ease to amaze me with the kind of BS you come up with. We already embrace and engage people from all corners of the world, so why even mention it ? What you want to do is throw out all the things connected to the club and reform it to just another empty, soulless football club. People like that always come up with 'It's holding us back' I say 'Fuck that', what's holding us back is the horrible level of football in Scotland and the refusal of clubs to change that. My opinion may be 'bs' to you but at least I have one formed by myself that I am willing to communicate - your argument is 'fuck that'! Why not , at least, try to articulate how you see the future of the clubs support - at the very least some of the people I disagree with can put an argument together, some withoutt even resorting to swearing. (but not all) Get off yer high horse mate an opinion is an opinion. I his opinion is to say 'fuck that' it may be an opinion ' (of sorts) but it is hardly a constructive argument that will sway me to 'his side' Also I note you got on a 'BIG HIGH HORSE' to tell me to get off mine - just got to laugh at the irony of it all sometimes! I really couldn't care less if I 'sway you to my side', you may be a nice guy but I doubt I'd want to have a pint with you before a game if that's how you want to see the club evolve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZX750 31 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 How I see this debate: We, the current fans, set the agenda for the future. In our future we all want to see Rnagers maintain their sporting leadership, particularily in Scotland but all be competitive on a European basis. How is this best served - a strong fan base. (Up to this point I expect no real dissent). The debate is how do we achieve that. Some think it is by entrenching our selves in Protestant and Unionist causes - some dont. I personally think we need to embrace and engage people on a different level from religion and politics (and it particular religion as the church on all fronts is contracting). Therefore I support dropping, what I see as the baggage of lotalist, unionist and the protestant causes. I also find the fact that we want to take some moral highground aginst them while maintaining a 'up to our knees in fe****n blood' stance. That is not the moral high ground that is the same cess pit of intolerance and hatred that we say we want to avoid. What is important to most fans is the future of Rangers Football Club and as I say, take the football away from these causes and you would be left with nothing, take the religion and politics out of Rangers and you would still be left with the greatest football institution in the world (IMHO). You never ease to amaze me with the kind of BS you come up with. We already embrace and engage people from all corners of the world, so why even mention it ? What you want to do is throw out all the things connected to the club and reform it to just another empty, soulless football club. People like that always come up with 'It's holding us back' I say 'Fuck that', what's holding us back is the horrible level of football in Scotland and the refusal of clubs to change that. My opinion may be 'bs' to you but at least I have one formed by myself that I am willing to communicate - your argument is 'fuck that'! Why not , at least, try to articulate how you see the future of the clubs support - at the very least some of the people I disagree with can put an argument together, some withoutt even resorting to swearing. (but not all) Get off yer high horse mate an opinion is an opinion. I his opinion is to say 'fuck that' it may be an opinion ' (of sorts) but it is hardly a constructive argument that will sway me to 'his side' Also I note you got on a 'BIG HIGH HORSE' to tell me to get off mine - just got to laugh at the irony of it all sometimes! Hes not trying to sway you, hes putting across an opinion. Im on no high horse at all. But belter of a reply Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
outlaw69uk 123 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Smells like T@rrier to me.. this type of bullshit pisses me off. Because someone does not agree with hating feenians/catholics/whatever, they are labled a T***,T****** and get all the sniff sniff pish. I love rangers and im proud of our history, BUT there is a time when we need to move on from the stuff that is holding us back ( and anyone who does not see that singing banned songs and all this religous hate is holding us back and tainting our public view. Then you are deluded). The guy isnt a TIM, he is a rangers FOOTBALL club supporter. ( important word - FOOTBALL) /rant p.s sorry for lack of spelling and puncuation. It's early and im pissed off I have to ask, whos public view? The only ones complaining about it, and being offended about it, are our biggest rivals, so, how is that a problem? Its always been the same. Singing illegal songs and religious hate doesnt seem to be holding them back does it? Then again... Rule Britannia, Follow Follow, The Sash... songs of religious hate yeah? Too many people are obsessed with this, and, the only reason is, they believe what the Scottish mhedia are saying, because, nobody else in the world seems to give 2 shits about it mate. Nobody! Its only in the goldfish bowl that its even discussed! So, heres what happens, people do what they suggest, the only people it affects are us and them, the only ones who are happy, are them! The rest of the world continues oblivious to it all. Basically, "moving on" is an action to appease the tims, and, why would anyone want to do that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jelle1880 225 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Smells like T@rrier to me.. this type of bullshit pisses me off. Because someone does not agree with hating feenians/catholics/whatever, they are labled a T***,T****** and get all the sniff sniff pish. I love rangers and im proud of our history, BUT there is a time when we need to move on from the stuff that is holding us back ( and anyone who does not see that singing banned songs and all this religous hate is holding us back and tainting our public view. Then you are deluded). The guy isnt a TIM, he is a rangers FOOTBALL club supporter. ( important word - FOOTBALL) /rant p.s sorry for lack of spelling and puncuation. It's early and im pissed off I have to ask, whos public view? The only ones complaining about it, and being offended about it, are our biggest rivals, so, how is that a problem? Its always been the same. Singing illegal songs and religious hate doesnt seem to be holding them back does it? Then again... Rule Britannia, Follow Follow, The Sash... songs of religious hate yeah? Too many people are obsessed with this, and, the only reason is, they believe what the Scottish mhedia are saying, because, nobody else in the world seems to give 2 shits about it mate. Nobody! Its only in the goldfish bowl that its even discussed! So, heres what happens, people do what they suggest, the only people it affects are us and them, the only ones who are happy, are them! The rest of the world continues oblivious to it all. Basically, "moving on" is an action to appease the tims, and, why would anyone want to do that? Because then they will be nice to us too and stop singing songs about killing British civilians. Right ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluepeter9 5,167 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 If his opinion is to say 'fuck that' it may be an opinion ' (of sorts) but it is hardly a constructive argument that will sway me to 'his side' Also I note you got on a 'BIG HIGH HORSE' to tell me to get off mine - just got to laugh at the irony of it all sometimes! Hes not trying to sway you, hes putting across an opinion. Im on no high horse at all. But belter of a reply Ta! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluepeter9 5,167 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Smells like T@rrier to me.. this type of bullshit pisses me off. Because someone does not agree with hating feenians/catholics/whatever, they are labled a T***,T****** and get all the sniff sniff pish. I love rangers and im proud of our history, BUT there is a time when we need to move on from the stuff that is holding us back ( and anyone who does not see that singing banned songs and all this religous hate is holding us back and tainting our public view. Then you are deluded). The guy isnt a TIM, he is a rangers FOOTBALL club supporter. ( important word - FOOTBALL) /rant p.s sorry for lack of spelling and puncuation. It's early and im pissed off I have to ask, whos public view? The only ones complaining about it, and being offended about it, are our biggest rivals, so, how is that a problem? Its always been the same. Singing illegal songs and religious hate doesnt seem to be holding them back does it? Then again... Rule Britannia, Follow Follow, The Sash... songs of religious hate yeah? Too many people are obsessed with this, and, the only reason is, they believe what the Scottish mhedia are saying, because, nobody else in the world seems to give 2 shits about it mate. Nobody! Its only in the goldfish bowl that its even discussed! So, heres what happens, people do what they suggest, the only people it affects are us and them, the only ones who are happy, are them! The rest of the world continues oblivious to it all. Basically, "moving on" is an action to appease the tims, and, why would anyone want to do that? Because then they will be nice to us too and stop singing songs about killing British civilians. Right ? Ah - the old they do 'bad stuff' so we need to do 'bad stuff' argument - OK its an argument but I prefer to defne my own path forward rather than let someone else follow their path and do the opposite just because its them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jelle1880 225 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Smells like T@rrier to me.. this type of bullshit pisses me off. Because someone does not agree with hating feenians/catholics/whatever, they are labled a T***,T****** and get all the sniff sniff pish. I love rangers and im proud of our history, BUT there is a time when we need to move on from the stuff that is holding us back ( and anyone who does not see that singing banned songs and all this religous hate is holding us back and tainting our public view. Then you are deluded). The guy isnt a TIM, he is a rangers FOOTBALL club supporter. ( important word - FOOTBALL) /rant p.s sorry for lack of spelling and puncuation. It's early and im pissed off I have to ask, whos public view? The only ones complaining about it, and being offended about it, are our biggest rivals, so, how is that a problem? Its always been the same. Singing illegal songs and religious hate doesnt seem to be holding them back does it? Then again... Rule Britannia, Follow Follow, The Sash... songs of religious hate yeah? Too many people are obsessed with this, and, the only reason is, they believe what the Scottish mhedia are saying, because, nobody else in the world seems to give 2 shits about it mate. Nobody! Its only in the goldfish bowl that its even discussed! So, heres what happens, people do what they suggest, the only people it affects are us and them, the only ones who are happy, are them! The rest of the world continues oblivious to it all. Basically, "moving on" is an action to appease the tims, and, why would anyone want to do that? Because then they will be nice to us too and stop singing songs about killing British civilians. Right ? Ah - the old they do 'bad stuff' so we need to do 'bad stuff' argument - OK its an argument but I prefer to defne my own path forward rather than let someone else follow their path and do the opposite just because its them. I didn't know we sang songs that are equal to 'Soon there'll be no Protestants at all' or 'I hope you die in your sleep Nacho Novo' ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
outlaw69uk 123 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 How I see this debate: We, the current fans, set the agenda for the future. In our future we all want to see Rnagers maintain their sporting leadership, particularily in Scotland but all be competitive on a European basis. How is this best served - a strong fan base. (Up to this point I expect no real dissent). The debate is how do we achieve that. Some think it is by entrenching our selves in Protestant and Unionist causes - some dont. I personally think we need to embrace and engage people on a different level from religion and politics (and it particular religion as the church on all fronts is contracting). Therefore I support dropping, what I see as the baggage of lotalist, unionist and the protestant causes. I also find the fact that we want to take some moral highground aginst them while maintaining a 'up to our knees in fe****n blood' stance. That is not the moral high ground that is the same cess pit of intolerance and hatred that we say we want to avoid. What is important to most fans is the future of Rangers Football Club and as I say, take the football away from these causes and you would be left with nothing, take the religion and politics out of Rangers and you would still be left with the greatest football institution in the world (IMHO). Where do you get this view that its a "cause"? Its not a cause. What you are missing, completely (and it was the main focus of my last article), is that Rangers are a Scottish football team. Scotland is in Great Britain. Our sovereign is the Queen, she is also the head of a particular church. Its not a "cause", its a representation of the general population of the bloody country mate! Rangers werent founded on religious or political ideals, however, back in the days of support your local team, the people who did so were of that persuasion. Again, simple facts. If you take the local area today, it is still the same demographic. Another club was founded solely on religious, national and political grounds, which they continue to this day. There is a difference. You think we need to embrace all others? Thats fine, why do so to the exclusion of the majority? Or, even if as you believe, the minority? That in itself just totally contradicts your OWN argument. Cant be all inclusive with the exception of 1 group now can you? Thats the whole problem with this argument, its, be tolerant of all bar Protestants and unionists. The only part that you, or anyone else can have any kind of chance of putting a valid point across against is the loyalist side of things, however, one person was arguing the other night that timmy has the right to sing their pro-terror songs etc, under freedom of speech, so, surely the same will apply? Not to everyones tastes, but, in this all inclusive utopia..... The other thing is, you want to take religion and politics out of Rangers, however, you cannot take it out of the support. The only way to do so, is force people to change their belief system and political views. The support is representative of a cross section of society, there will be elements you dont like, elements I dont like. Simple fact, yet, part of the magic that makes this club what it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellowcross 5 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 What is important to most fans is the future of Rangers Football Club and as I say, take the football away from these causes and you would be left with nothing, take the religion and politics out of Rangers and you would still be left with the greatest football institution in the world (IMHO). BP9: although your outlook is entirely valid and you are consistent with it and express it well etc - and although we would probably agree on most things to do with personal morality etc - still I have to say I disagree with you when you say that we should just drop everything from Rangers except the football... For me if you took away the traditions / songs / religious aspect / britishness etc you would be left with something as appealing as ... well tofu..! Flavourless, colourless, flat, dull, inane, bland pap etc. And the club would be weakened/possibly ruined for that. IMO the club must retain its links to the past and its links to the fans - it must retain its unique culture, its unique atmosphere - it must continue to reflect the fans who support it. Ultimately, the club IS the fans who support it and those who have supported it - and of course we have many diverse types of fan etc and they are all entitled to their views (which is why I like RM as views are exchanged openly) - but still change should come slowly and incrementally, from below, naturally, as the fan base changes slowly in time with age/social conditions etc - I do not think change should be imposed from above by legislators (or led by others like the media etc.) So, imo, leave Rangers as we are pretty much - if you take everything away except the football you will ruin us - and we would be left with a club as appealing as TOFU FC... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
outlaw69uk 123 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 What is important to most fans is the future of Rangers Football Club and as I say, take the football away from these causes and you would be left with nothing, take the religion and politics out of Rangers and you would still be left with the greatest football institution in the world (IMHO). BP9: although your outlook is entirely valid and you are consistent with it and express it well etc - and although we would probably agree on most things to do with personal morality etc - still I have to say I disagree with you when you say that we should just drop everything from Rangers except the football... For me if you took away the traditions / songs / religious aspect / britishness etc you would be left with something as appealing as ... well tofu..! Flavourless, colourless, flat, dull, inane, bland pap etc. And the club would be weakened/possibly ruined for that. IMO the club must retain its links to the past and its links to the fans - it must retain its unique culture, its unique atmosphere - it must continue to reflect the fans who support it. Ultimately, the club IS the fans who support it and those who have supported it - and of course we have many diverse types of fan etc and they are all entitled to their views (which is why I like RM as views are exchanged openly) - but still change should come slowly and incrementally, from below, naturally, as the fan base changes slowly in time with age/social conditions etc - I do not think change should be imposed from above by legislators (or led by others like the media etc.) So, imo, leave Rangers as we are pretty much - if you take everything away except the football you will ruin us - and we would be left with a club as appealing as TOFU FC... Brings this to mind mate Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluepeter9 5,167 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 How I see this debate: We, the current fans, set the agenda for the future. In our future we all want to see Rnagers maintain their sporting leadership, particularily in Scotland but all be competitive on a European basis. How is this best served - a strong fan base. (Up to this point I expect no real dissent). The debate is how do we achieve that. Some think it is by entrenching our selves in Protestant and Unionist causes - some dont. I personally think we need to embrace and engage people on a different level from religion and politics (and it particular religion as the church on all fronts is contracting). Therefore I support dropping, what I see as the baggage of lotalist, unionist and the protestant causes. I also find the fact that we want to take some moral highground aginst them while maintaining a 'up to our knees in fe****n blood' stance. That is not the moral high ground that is the same cess pit of intolerance and hatred that we say we want to avoid. What is important to most fans is the future of Rangers Football Club and as I say, take the football away from these causes and you would be left with nothing, take the religion and politics out of Rangers and you would still be left with the greatest football institution in the world (IMHO). Where do you get this view that its a "cause"? Its not a cause. What you are missing, completely (and it was the main focus of my last article), is that Rangers are a Scottish football team. Scotland is in Great Britain. Our sovereign is the Queen, she is also the head of a particular church. Its not a "cause", its a representation of the general population of the bloody country mate! Rangers werent founded on religious or political ideals, however, back in the days of support your local team, the people who did so were of that persuasion. Again, simple facts. If you take the local area today, it is still the same demographic. Another club was founded solely on religious, national and political grounds, which they continue to this day. There is a difference. You think we need to embrace all others? Thats fine, why do so to the exclusion of the majority? Or, even if as you believe, the minority? That in itself just totally contradicts your OWN argument. Cant be all inclusive with the exception of 1 group now can you? Thats the whole problem with this argument, its, be tolerant of all bar Protestants and unionists. The only part that you, or anyone else can have any kind of chance of putting a valid point across against is the loyalist side of things, however, one person was arguing the other night that timmy has the right to sing their pro-terror songs etc, under freedom of speech, so, surely the same will apply? Not to everyones tastes, but, in this all inclusive utopia..... The other thing is, you want to take religion and politics out of Rangers, however, you cannot take it out of the support. The only way to do so, is force people to change their belief system and political views. The support is representative of a cross section of society, there will be elements you dont like, elements I dont like. Simple fact, yet, part of the magic that makes this club what it is. I do actually get the whole Scottish / British and even Protestant thing (I am after all a Scot/Brit/Ex soldier) and am proud of that heritage - and perhaps I need to articulate that better - what I dont like, which you see on the boards especially, is the 'radicalisation' aspects of that belief syatems and applying it to Rangers as a football team. Its almost as if some want us to pick those corners to the detriment (IMHO) of the club! However the UK, Scotland in particular, has always embraced 'immigrants' we have had huge NI, Italian, Chinese and Pakastani influxes, now we have Eastern Europeans and they add to our depth of culture (IMHO) and do not detract from it. I have no time for anyone who wants to come here and change our rules but have no problems with assimulation of other faiths, traditions and ideas into our culture (On a base level - and you can tell I am a fat b'stard with this - where would we be without Italians (Chippy's and Pizza, Chinese and Indian/Pakastanis Influences?) - So as Scotland becomes, and is, a 'broad' church so should Rangers be. A drive towards two specific causes (Loyalist and Protestant) will marginilise our club to its detriment. Hence why I support a non-political / religious agenda for our club. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluepeter9 5,167 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 What is important to most fans is the future of Rangers Football Club and as I say, take the football away from these causes and you would be left with nothing, take the religion and politics out of Rangers and you would still be left with the greatest football institution in the world (IMHO). BP9: although your outlook is entirely valid and you are consistent with it and express it well etc - and although we would probably agree on most things to do with personal morality etc - still I have to say I disagree with you when you say that we should just drop everything from Rangers except the football... For me if you took away the traditions / songs / religious aspect / britishness etc you would be left with something as appealing as ... well tofu..! Flavourless, colourless, flat, dull, inane, bland pap etc. And the club would be weakened/possibly ruined for that. IMO the club must retain its links to the past and its links to the fans - it must retain its unique culture, its unique atmosphere - it must continue to reflect the fans who support it. Ultimately, the club IS the fans who support it and those who have supported it - and of course we have many diverse types of fan etc and they are all entitled to their views (which is why I like RM as views are exchanged openly) - but still change should come slowly and incrementally, from below, naturally, as the fan base changes slowly in time with age/social conditions etc - I do not think change should be imposed from above by legislators (or led by others like the media etc.) So, imo, leave Rangers as we are pretty much - if you take everything away except the football you will ruin us - and we would be left with a club as appealing as TOFU FC... Just replied to outlaw869 and same post is relevant as a reply to this post. Just to add I dont think the media set the agenda for this club - we do - its what that agenda and outcome should be that we debate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogzy 31,195 Posted January 8, 2010 Share Posted January 8, 2010 Smells like T@rrier to me.. this type of bullshit pisses me off. Because someone does not agree with hating feenians/catholics/whatever, they are labled a T***,T****** and get all the sniff sniff pish. I love rangers and im proud of our history, BUT there is a time when we need to move on from the stuff that is holding us back ( and anyone who does not see that singing banned songs and all this religous hate is holding us back and tainting our public view. Then you are deluded). The guy isnt a TIM, he is a rangers FOOTBALL club supporter. ( important word - FOOTBALL) /rant p.s sorry for lack of spelling and puncuation. It's early and im pissed off I have to ask, whos public view? The only ones complaining about it, and being offended about it, are our biggest rivals, so, how is that a problem? Its always been the same. Singing illegal songs and religious hate doesnt seem to be holding them back does it? Then again... Rule Britannia, Follow Follow, The Sash... songs of religious hate yeah? Too many people are obsessed with this, and, the only reason is, they believe what the Scottish mhedia are saying, because, nobody else in the world seems to give 2 shits about it mate. Nobody! Its only in the goldfish bowl that its even discussed! So, heres what happens, people do what they suggest, the only people it affects are us and them, the only ones who are happy, are them! The rest of the world continues oblivious to it all. Basically, "moving on" is an action to appease the tims, and, why would anyone want to do that? I guess i must imagine it when i see comments in the papers about us singing those songs ( and fwiw i used to sing TBB and still do when im with my friends. I wont sing it in the ground because it's giving us a bad name and the club dont want us singing it anymore) Also i dont think the rest of the world is as "oblivious" to it all as you would like to believe I know this argument is not just about songs. but unlike half this board im not the best at getting my point across on the internet . I just feel that the "fuck them all, no one likes us, we dont cae" attitude helps us at all. someone said earlier that if we change our ways a bit then the media will move on to the ugly side of celtic and leave us alone. Whatever though, each of us is entitled to think and believe what we want mate. We are both rangers fans and thats all that really matters. WATP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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