The broad Church of modern day Rangers fans

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

You fans that want us to move on and forget our culture should remember that our club encouraged our Protestant support. They were happy to take our money and be known as a Protestant club. People say we would still be left with Rangers if we stop all the religon and songs, you are correct, but what you should say is that it would be a shell of a club and it would have to be the new Rangers, as the old Rangers would be dead and thousands of us fans would die with it. One bit of advice for you al is to read the article by Dartangnan called The Forgotten Ones and that explains what would happen to our club.

The article explains D'artangnan's opinion of what would happen to the club!

Yes but its true, but then again it would not bother you as you and a few hundred more would have the ground to yourself, sitting rustling your sweetie papers and still would not understand what you have lost. But the one good thing is that it will never happen as you lot are a minority, and the majority will never be beaten. Also you knew what the club and support was always about, so why did you pick our club to support.

I picked the club is correct - I wasn't born into it or brought up by my faither to support Rangers (or in your case as stated - hate Celtic, not quite the same..... but I digress). I have sung the songs, etc. etc. but life moves on.

For me I started looking at the association when poeple started to say I should vote conservative because Maggie visited and some started supporting England because we had a core of England Internationals but when the whole Billy Boys thing started happeneing, I like many others, said 'Do we need to look at ourselves, where do I stand on this issue and others like it' ? and I then formed a new set of opinions. There was more than enough in the Rangers way of life, its history, its sporsmanship, leadership, integrity to stand on its own as a Football club without me having to bind myself, based on my support, to Religious, Political ideals I may (or may not) believe in. Rangers are important to me and I though what way (IMHO) should we go - and it was not down the road of entrenchment into some narrow political or religious views points but into a more expansive, inclusive, football supporting fan base.

[outlaw69uk 123]

Same old arguments every time which get nowhere. At the end of the day, it is all about respect. Fans need to respect that Rangers have a proud Protestant and Unionist heritage and that will be shown in the flags the majority of the support wave and the songs they sing. If you take nothing to do with that side of our history then fine, but have the decency to acknowledge and respect that most Bears do.

Simlarly, fans should not be chastised for not wanting to revel in the religious and political side of our club and are entitled to be a Rangers supporter no matter what religion they follow or country they were born in. We are a massive club with a worldwide support so not everyone is going to have the same beliefs as each other. Not a problem unless you try and make it one by causing division.

These threads always just seem like the usual "my way is better than yours" nonsense. We all support the Rangers for whatever reason, so just accept that, for crying out loud.

Thats quite fair. It doesnt happen, but its fair

[minstral 5,375]

Same old arguments every time which get nowhere. At the end of the day, it is all about respect. Fans need to respect that Rangers have a proud Protestant and Unionist heritage and that will be shown in the flags the majority of the support wave and the songs they sing. If you take nothing to do with that side of our history then fine, but have the decency to acknowledge and respect that most Bears do.

Simlarly, fans should not be chastised for not wanting to revel in the religious and political side of our club and are entitled to be a Rangers supporter no matter what religion they follow or country they were born in. We are a massive club with a worldwide support so not everyone is going to have the same beliefs as each other. Not a problem unless you try and make it one by causing division.

These threads always just seem like the usual "my way is better than yours" nonsense. We all support the Rangers for whatever reason, so just accept that, for crying out loud.

I have no problem with anyone supporting the club in the way they want to. The problem i have is when they want to drop everything about our culture or traditions.

[outlaw69uk 123]

How I see this debate:

We, the current fans, set the agenda for the future.

In our future we all want to see Rnagers maintain their sporting leadership, particularily in Scotland but all be competitive on a European basis. How is this best served - a strong fan base. (Up to this point I expect no real dissent).

The debate is how do we achieve that.

Some think it is by entrenching our selves in Protestant and Unionist causes - some dont.

I personally think we need to embrace and engage people on a different level from religion and politics (and it particular religion as the church on all fronts is contracting). Therefore I support dropping, what I see as the baggage of lotalist, unionist and the protestant causes. I also find the fact that we want to take some moral highground aginst them while maintaining a 'up to our knees in fe****n blood' stance. That is not the moral high ground that is the same cess pit of intolerance and hatred that we say we want to avoid.

What is important to most fans is the future of Rangers Football Club and as I say, take the football away from these causes and you would be left with nothing, take the religion and politics out of Rangers and you would still be left with the greatest football institution in the world (IMHO).

Where do you get this view that its a "cause"? Its not a cause. What you are missing, completely (and it was the main focus of my last article), is that Rangers are a Scottish football team. Scotland is in Great Britain. Our sovereign is the Queen, she is also the head of a particular church. Its not a "cause", its a representation of the general population of the bloody country mate! Rangers werent founded on religious or political ideals, however, back in the days of support your local team, the people who did so were of that persuasion. Again, simple facts. If you take the local area today, it is still the same demographic. Another club was founded solely on religious, national and political grounds, which they continue to this day. There is a difference.

You think we need to embrace all others? Thats fine, why do so to the exclusion of the majority? Or, even if as you believe, the minority? That in itself just totally contradicts your OWN argument. Cant be all inclusive with the exception of 1 group now can you? Thats the whole problem with this argument, its, be tolerant of all bar Protestants and unionists. The only part that you, or anyone else can have any kind of chance of putting a valid point across against is the loyalist side of things, however, one person was arguing the other night that timmy has the right to sing their pro-terror songs etc, under freedom of speech, so, surely the same will apply? Not to everyones tastes, but, in this all inclusive utopia.....

The other thing is, you want to take religion and politics out of Rangers, however, you cannot take it out of the support. The only way to do so, is force people to change their belief system and political views. The support is representative of a cross section of society, there will be elements you dont like, elements I dont like. Simple fact, yet, part of the magic that makes this club what it is.

I do actually get the whole Scottish / British and even Protestant thing (I am after all a Scot/Brit/Ex soldier) and am proud of that heritage - and perhaps I need to articulate that better - what I dont like, which you see on the boards especially, is the 'radicalisation' aspects of that belief syatems and applying it to Rangers as a football team. Its almost as if some want us to pick those corners to the detriment (IMHO) of the club!

However the UK, Scotland in particular, has always embraced 'immigrants' we have had huge NI, Italian, Chinese and Pakastani influxes, now we have Eastern Europeans and they add to our depth of culture (IMHO) and do not detract from it. I have no time for anyone who wants to come here and change our rules but have no problems with assimulation of other faiths, traditions and ideas into our culture (On a base level - and you can tell I am a fat b'stard with this - where would we be without Italians (Chippy's and Pizza, Chinese and Indian/Pakastanis Influences?) - So as Scotland becomes, and is, a 'broad' church so should Rangers be. A drive towards two specific causes (Loyalist and Protestant) will marginilise our club to its detriment. Hence why I support a non-political / religious agenda for our club.

The question here, what if removing all this, as you prefer, is also a detriment to the club?

I think, perhaps where you have a problem, is that nobody is applying the belief system to the team, or the club as such, the belief systems are representative of the support, and, the Club is simply the tie that binds us all together. The part I have highlighted already happens. The reason the songs are sung, and, the flags flown, is that those who do so, believe in that. Fairly simple. You also mention those coming in, "changing the rules", well, by removing what you percieve to be happening, thats changing the rules and alienating a large number of the support is it not?

I have a good friend called mohammed, who is a Muslim (fairly obvious), however, he also loves the Protestant and Loyalist side of things, and is a huge Bear. How do you explain that if it is going to marginalise us? WVB is an athiest, yet, an advocate of TBB, so, since he isnt religious, he must just like the song maybe?

This agenda for the club you speak of. It doesnt exist! Look at how Murrays minions speak out on those things, how they "defend" the club? They dont in general. The clubs "agenda", is to be successful. Removing the core of your fanbase does nothing but damage the club, financially, and, by reputation.

Essentially, everything you seem to want already happens, apart from those pesky fans that go to the games carrying flags you dont approve of, and, singing songs you dont approve of.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

I have a good friend called mohammed, who is a Muslim (fairly obvious), however, he also loves the Protestant and Loyalist side of things

Funnily enough I have a good friend who is a Sikh and he's the same, always wearing 'Hands across the water' polos and the like.

He hates muslims though....

[royalbluebell 38]

Same old arguments every time which get nowhere. At the end of the day, it is all about respect. Fans need to respect that Rangers have a proud Protestant and Unionist heritage and that will be shown in the flags the majority of the support wave and the songs they sing. If you take nothing to do with that side of our history then fine, but have the decency to acknowledge and respect that most Bears do.

Simlarly, fans should not be chastised for not wanting to revel in the religious and political side of our club and are entitled to be a Rangers supporter no matter what religion they follow or country they were born in. We are a massive club with a worldwide support so not everyone is going to have the same beliefs as each other. Not a problem unless you try and make it one by causing division.

These threads always just seem like the usual "my way is better than yours" nonsense. We all support the Rangers for whatever reason, so just accept that, for crying out loud.

I have no problem with anyone supporting the club in the way they want to. The problem i have is when they want to drop everything about our culture or traditions.

I don't think there's many people who chastise fans for them not wanting to revel in the religious or political side of things. The problem lies, like minstral says, when they suggest we let go of the culture of the club.

[BlueIsTheColour 35]

Same old arguments every time which get nowhere. At the end of the day, it is all about respect. Fans need to respect that Rangers have a proud Protestant and Unionist heritage and that will be shown in the flags the majority of the support wave and the songs they sing. If you take nothing to do with that side of our history then fine, but have the decency to acknowledge and respect that most Bears do.

Simlarly, fans should not be chastised for not wanting to revel in the religious and political side of our club and are entitled to be a Rangers supporter no matter what religion they follow or country they were born in. We are a massive club with a worldwide support so not everyone is going to have the same beliefs as each other. Not a problem unless you try and make it one by causing division.

These threads always just seem like the usual "my way is better than yours" nonsense. We all support the Rangers for whatever reason, so just accept that, for crying out loud.

I have no problem with anyone supporting the club in the way they want to. The problem i have is when they want to drop everything about our culture or traditions.

I don't think there's many people who chastise fans for them not wanting to revel in the religious or political side of things. The problem lies, like minstral says, when they suggest we let go of the culture of the club.

Of course, that is unacceptable. No part of our culture should be dropped, every part is there to be proud of.

Anyone who tells people how to support the club shouldn't be taken seriously.

[keithgersbear 3,225]

an advocate of TBB

Is the TBB about religion though? I didn't think it was.

The F word doesn't mean the big C does it?

[outlaw69uk 123]

an advocate of TBB

Is the TBB about religion though? I didn't think it was.

The F word doesn't mean the big C does it?

Well, I didnt think so, but, I have heard its a "song of religious hate"

Should sell well when my version is released in March

[keithgersbear 3,225]

an advocate of TBB

Is the TBB about religion though? I didn't think it was.

The F word doesn't mean the big C does it?

Well, I didnt think so, but, I have heard its a "song of religious hate"

Should sell well when my version is released in March

Hahaha.

Whats your version..

It's not a song of hate on religion and to be honest, even if it was, who the fuck cares. Religion is not a huge thing anymore.

[outlaw69uk 123]

an advocate of TBB

Is the TBB about religion though? I didn't think it was.

The F word doesn't mean the big C does it?

Well, I didnt think so, but, I have heard its a "song of religious hate"

Should sell well when my version is released in March

Hahaha.

Whats your version..

It's not a song of hate on religion and to be honest, even if it was, who the fuck cares. Religion is not a huge thing anymore.

No, I didnt think religion was that big anymore, although, for those who still follow it, all respect to them.

Releasing a 4 track EP of Rangers songs, in a more rock/punk style haha. Couldnt resist it

[keithgersbear 3,225]

an advocate of TBB

Is the TBB about religion though? I didn't think it was.

The F word doesn't mean the big C does it?

Well, I didnt think so, but, I have heard its a "song of religious hate"

Should sell well when my version is released in March

Hahaha.

Whats your version..

It's not a song of hate on religion and to be honest, even if it was, who the fuck cares. Religion is not a huge thing anymore.

No, I didnt think religion was that big anymore, although, for those who still follow it, all respect to them.

Releasing a 4 track EP of Rangers songs, in a more rock/punk style haha. Couldnt resist it

Fully agree. Let people believe what they want.

[TravelingWilBEARy 4,319]

And that is what you, imo, fail to see.

There is indeed nothing wrong with Derry's Walls and The Sash, however they DO come after these songs.

Why ? Because they celebrate Protestantism.

I see your point but I think you fail to see just how much certain parts of the media hate our club and our fans, and they will do anything to smear us.

I'm getting pretty sick of the terms 'moving forward' or 'nothing to do with football'.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with celebrating historic things.

They, cant, fairly come after us over these songs - like they feel they can with TBB and the famine song

I would like to think that the club would defend us if they tried

[TravelingWilBEARy 4,319]

following on from Minstrals thread it has become clear that the media's image of the modern day Rangers support is at least 20 years out of date.

We all know what our history and traditions are - and I'm not saying their is anything wrong with it. There are wide views and opinions surrounding our Protestant heritage and wether it is relevant anymore and this is the way it should be - the world, and this message board would be a little boring if everyone agreed.

We should band together, celebrate our past and move forward to the future as a tolerant support rather than the bigots we are made out to be. Accept that the World has moved on since the old days but in no way forget our history and tradition. We are all Rangers fans after all and this antagonism in unnecessary, our club has enough enemies without our support splitting into factions.

We Are The People

I dont think its just the mhedia, I think its a lot of "fans" as well. One thing people seem to forget is, in Britain, Protestant IS the Religion, in the main. Now, whether you are religious or not, it doesnt stop that from being true. Some people, especially in Scotland, seem to associate Protestant and Bigot as one and the same. What about CoE? The reason Ragers are associated with that, is because they were formed in Glasgow, and, the nativepopulation whas what? We were formed as a football club, and, it just so happens that the people who live there (support your local team!) were of that nationality and faith. Celtic were formed differently, with different reasons and a different agenda, and, given this is a Rangers forum, i shoulnt have to explain why!

Here is the big problem, all this "moving on" side of things? The broad church? all well and good apart from one tiny flaw. The people advocating this so furiously, are at the same time attacking and trying to exclude the very people whose families have followed the club since inception. Now, how can that be right? We will be all inclusive but Protestantism is bad? Who can then be a fan? Nobody who was christened? Thats where the "logic" falls down.

The other problem is, anti-celtic is NOT anti catholic. That appears to be something that a lot of people need to learn. However, you come on a message board like this, and, see posts like this one of yours, and, it perpetuates the myth that it means just that. It gives fuel to those who want to hurt the club, since, they can use the lame argument that "even the clubs own fans believe it". Its not like there isnt a queue of people who detest our club, that happens when you are successful, others become jealous of you.

You also mentioned songs, and behaviour. Who should regulate that and say what is right or wrong? Certainly not the celtic minded, which, in case you missed it, seem to hold sway over the majority of the scottish press! Us taking heed of what they say, is like Jews asking Hitler for advice, you just wouldnt. Ask the enemy what is acceptable? Madness.

All inclusive and tolerant, means EVERYONE. Doesnt mean, everyone bar Protestants. So many people are perpetuating the myth that Protestant = Bad = bigot. Non-Religious people are being called bigots for that very reason That is the problem that needs addressing mate.

At absolutely no point did I say that we should abandon or forget our Protestant history - what I said is we should celebrate it while dropping he more darker side

I also never said that being anti-Celtic means being anti-Catholic - but we do still indulge in anti-Catholic and paramilitary songs whic have no place in modern society and make the club an easy target for the press

[fegget 2]

They are more united than us anyway - They have a few lunatics on the fringe but most of them band together

i would have to agree sadly

As would I, they unite in their hatred of us also. I would guess, if you have a wee look at some of their sites (as some on here do), you will find no threads espousing the class of Davie Cooper, or, how their own fans are bigots. Contrast with here?

You look at the club itself, they also speak out when someone attacks them (and, usually the attacks are fair), yet, we maintain "dignified silence" and, fire into each other. hmm. i dont like giving them any sort of plaudits, but, that is exactly how we should bebehaving, rather than have our own tear into each other

You obviously do not look much - after the 7-1 game last week, another member posted a link to Kerrydale st. When I looked on there at the thread that was linked to, they were just like us, half hating and the other half giving us the respect that our recent form deserved.

[flecky1 4]

They are more united than us anyway - They have a few lunatics on the fringe but most of them band together

i would have to agree sadly

As would I, they unite in their hatred of us also. I would guess, if you have a wee look at some of their sites (as some on here do), you will find no threads espousing the class of Davie Cooper, or, how their own fans are bigots. Contrast with here?

You look at the club itself, they also speak out when someone attacks them (and, usually the attacks are fair), yet, we maintain "dignified silence" and, fire into each other. hmm. i dont like giving them any sort of plaudits, but, that is exactly how we should bebehaving, rather than have our own tear into each other

You obviously do not look much - after the 7-1 game last week, another member posted a link to Kerrydale st. When I looked on there at the thread that was linked to, they were just like us, half hating and the other half giving us the respect that our recent form deserved.

i doubt that very much, they hate us to a man

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

How I see this debate:

We, the current fans, set the agenda for the future.

In our future we all want to see Rnagers maintain their sporting leadership, particularily in Scotland but all be competitive on a European basis. How is this best served - a strong fan base. (Up to this point I expect no real dissent).

The debate is how do we achieve that.

Some think it is by entrenching our selves in Protestant and Unionist causes - some dont.

I personally think we need to embrace and engage people on a different level from religion and politics (and it particular religion as the church on all fronts is contracting). Therefore I support dropping, what I see as the baggage of lotalist, unionist and the protestant causes. I also find the fact that we want to take some moral highground aginst them while maintaining a 'up to our knees in fe****n blood' stance. That is not the moral high ground that is the same cess pit of intolerance and hatred that we say we want to avoid.

What is important to most fans is the future of Rangers Football Club and as I say, take the football away from these causes and you would be left with nothing, take the religion and politics out of Rangers and you would still be left with the greatest football institution in the world (IMHO).

Where do you get this view that its a "cause"? Its not a cause. What you are missing, completely (and it was the main focus of my last article), is that Rangers are a Scottish football team. Scotland is in Great Britain. Our sovereign is the Queen, she is also the head of a particular church. Its not a "cause", its a representation of the general population of the bloody country mate! Rangers werent founded on religious or political ideals, however, back in the days of support your local team, the people who did so were of that persuasion. Again, simple facts. If you take the local area today, it is still the same demographic. Another club was founded solely on religious, national and political grounds, which they continue to this day. There is a difference.

You think we need to embrace all others? Thats fine, why do so to the exclusion of the majority? Or, even if as you believe, the minority? That in itself just totally contradicts your OWN argument. Cant be all inclusive with the exception of 1 group now can you? Thats the whole problem with this argument, its, be tolerant of all bar Protestants and unionists. The only part that you, or anyone else can have any kind of chance of putting a valid point across against is the loyalist side of things, however, one person was arguing the other night that timmy has the right to sing their pro-terror songs etc, under freedom of speech, so, surely the same will apply? Not to everyones tastes, but, in this all inclusive utopia.....

The other thing is, you want to take religion and politics out of Rangers, however, you cannot take it out of the support. The only way to do so, is force people to change their belief system and political views. The support is representative of a cross section of society, there will be elements you dont like, elements I dont like. Simple fact, yet, part of the magic that makes this club what it is.

I do actually get the whole Scottish / British and even Protestant thing (I am after all a Scot/Brit/Ex soldier) and am proud of that heritage - and perhaps I need to articulate that better - what I dont like, which you see on the boards especially, is the 'radicalisation' aspects of that belief syatems and applying it to Rangers as a football team. Its almost as if some want us to pick those corners to the detriment (IMHO) of the club!

However the UK, Scotland in particular, has always embraced 'immigrants' we have had huge NI, Italian, Chinese and Pakastani influxes, now we have Eastern Europeans and they add to our depth of culture (IMHO) and do not detract from it. I have no time for anyone who wants to come here and change our rules but have no problems with assimulation of other faiths, traditions and ideas into our culture (On a base level - and you can tell I am a fat b'stard with this - where would we be without Italians (Chippy's and Pizza, Chinese and Indian/Pakastanis Influences?) - So as Scotland becomes, and is, a 'broad' church so should Rangers be. A drive towards two specific causes (Loyalist and Protestant) will marginilise our club to its detriment. Hence why I support a non-political / religious agenda for our club.

The question here, what if removing all this, as you prefer, is also a detriment to the club?

I think, perhaps where you have a problem, is that nobody is applying the belief system to the team, or the club as such, the belief systems are representative of the support, and, the Club is simply the tie that binds us all together. The part I have highlighted already happens. The reason the songs are sung, and, the flags flown, is that those who do so, believe in that. Fairly simple. You also mention those coming in, "changing the rules", well, by removing what you percieve to be happening, thats changing the rules and alienating a large number of the support is it not?

I have a good friend called mohammed, who is a Muslim (fairly obvious), however, he also loves the Protestant and Loyalist side of things, and is a huge Bear. How do you explain that if it is going to marginalise us? WVB is an athiest, yet, an advocate of TBB, so, since he isnt religious, he must just like the song maybe?

This agenda for the club you speak of. It doesnt exist! Look at how Murrays minions speak out on those things, how they "defend" the club? They dont in general. The clubs "agenda", is to be successful. Removing the core of your fanbase does nothing but damage the club, financially, and, by reputation.

Essentially, everything you seem to want already happens, apart from those pesky fans that go to the games carrying flags you dont approve of, and, singing songs you dont approve of.

Nearly a decent point until you brought WVB in !!

In this 'discussion' it is both fan base and club - there is no denying our history, but there is debate to be had about our future. I dont support marginalisation in any walk of life - for instance, in 'our' society I think there is a real danger of marginilising muslims, like your mate, due to the associated actions of a few extremists. Similarily those who want us Rangers fans to 'harden' our position as loyalist/unionist/protestants pose a danger of alienating a wider fan base that I think is essential, now and in the future, for our survival as a football club. Thus I advocate removing thse links from our club.

[TravelingWilBEARy 4,319]

How I see this debate:

We, the current fans, set the agenda for the future.

In our future we all want to see Rnagers maintain their sporting leadership, particularily in Scotland but all be competitive on a European basis. How is this best served - a strong fan base. (Up to this point I expect no real dissent).

The debate is how do we achieve that.

Some think it is by entrenching our selves in Protestant and Unionist causes - some dont.

I personally think we need to embrace and engage people on a different level from religion and politics (and it particular religion as the church on all fronts is contracting). Therefore I support dropping, what I see as the baggage of lotalist, unionist and the protestant causes. I also find the fact that we want to take some moral highground aginst them while maintaining a 'up to our knees in fe****n blood' stance. That is not the moral high ground that is the same cess pit of intolerance and hatred that we say we want to avoid.

What is important to most fans is the future of Rangers Football Club and as I say, take the football away from these causes and you would be left with nothing, take the religion and politics out of Rangers and you would still be left with the greatest football institution in the world (IMHO).

Where do you get this view that its a "cause"? Its not a cause. What you are missing, completely (and it was the main focus of my last article), is that Rangers are a Scottish football team. Scotland is in Great Britain. Our sovereign is the Queen, she is also the head of a particular church. Its not a "cause", its a representation of the general population of the bloody country mate! Rangers werent founded on religious or political ideals, however, back in the days of support your local team, the people who did so were of that persuasion. Again, simple facts. If you take the local area today, it is still the same demographic. Another club was founded solely on religious, national and political grounds, which they continue to this day. There is a difference.

You think we need to embrace all others? Thats fine, why do so to the exclusion of the majority? Or, even if as you believe, the minority? That in itself just totally contradicts your OWN argument. Cant be all inclusive with the exception of 1 group now can you? Thats the whole problem with this argument, its, be tolerant of all bar Protestants and unionists. The only part that you, or anyone else can have any kind of chance of putting a valid point across against is the loyalist side of things, however, one person was arguing the other night that timmy has the right to sing their pro-terror songs etc, under freedom of speech, so, surely the same will apply? Not to everyones tastes, but, in this all inclusive utopia.....

The other thing is, you want to take religion and politics out of Rangers, however, you cannot take it out of the support. The only way to do so, is force people to change their belief system and political views. The support is representative of a cross section of society, there will be elements you dont like, elements I dont like. Simple fact, yet, part of the magic that makes this club what it is.

I do actually get the whole Scottish / British and even Protestant thing (I am after all a Scot/Brit/Ex soldier) and am proud of that heritage - and perhaps I need to articulate that better - what I dont like, which you see on the boards especially, is the 'radicalisation' aspects of that belief syatems and applying it to Rangers as a football team. Its almost as if some want us to pick those corners to the detriment (IMHO) of the club!

However the UK, Scotland in particular, has always embraced 'immigrants' we have had huge NI, Italian, Chinese and Pakastani influxes, now we have Eastern Europeans and they add to our depth of culture (IMHO) and do not detract from it. I have no time for anyone who wants to come here and change our rules but have no problems with assimulation of other faiths, traditions and ideas into our culture (On a base level - and you can tell I am a fat b'stard with this - where would we be without Italians (Chippy's and Pizza, Chinese and Indian/Pakastanis Influences?) - So as Scotland becomes, and is, a 'broad' church so should Rangers be. A drive towards two specific causes (Loyalist and Protestant) will marginilise our club to its detriment. Hence why I support a non-political / religious agenda for our club.

The question here, what if removing all this, as you prefer, is also a detriment to the club?

I think, perhaps where you have a problem, is that nobody is applying the belief system to the team, or the club as such, the belief systems are representative of the support, and, the Club is simply the tie that binds us all together. The part I have highlighted already happens. The reason the songs are sung, and, the flags flown, is that those who do so, believe in that. Fairly simple. You also mention those coming in, "changing the rules", well, by removing what you percieve to be happening, thats changing the rules and alienating a large number of the support is it not?

I have a good friend called mohammed, who is a Muslim (fairly obvious), however, he also loves the Protestant and Loyalist side of things, and is a huge Bear. How do you explain that if it is going to marginalise us? WVB is an athiest, yet, an advocate of TBB, so, since he isnt religious, he must just like the song maybe?

This agenda for the club you speak of. It doesnt exist! Look at how Murrays minions speak out on those things, how they "defend" the club? They dont in general. The clubs "agenda", is to be successful. Removing the core of your fanbase does nothing but damage the club, financially, and, by reputation.

Essentially, everything you seem to want already happens, apart from those pesky fans that go to the games carrying flags you dont approve of, and, singing songs you dont approve of.

Nearly a decent point until you brought WVB in !!

In this 'discussion' it is both fan base and club - there is no denying our history, but there is debate to be had about our future. I dont support marginalisation in any walk of life - for instance, in 'our' society I think there is a real danger of marginilising muslims, like your mate, due to the associated actions of a few extremists. Similarily those who want us Rangers fans to 'harden' our position as loyalist/unionist/protestants pose a danger of alienating a wider fan base that I think is essential, now and in the future, for our survival as a football club. Thus I advocate removing thse links from our club.

I dont think we need to completely remove our links to Protestantism - just cut off the darker elements of it. I dont think anyone is ashamed of the history but when it manifests itself in anti-Catholicism or para-military singing then it can and will alienate people and will create divisions.

people seem to see this as forgetting our roots, but its not - celebrate the good things and move on from the stuff that has no place in society

[dummiesoot 15,990]

The thing that gets me in all of this, is this, there is a - lets call them modern - Rangers fan that is in all essence 'Speirsish' in outlook that our heritage is not to be celebrated or remembered, frankly that is just pish. Rangers are the club they are because of the indinginous support and its cultural heritage. This cannot be ignored and should be celebrated. I work beside many african guys, you know what, 90% support Rangers, damn sure they ain't WASP, they love our history though, the songs the music and the cameradery of being a bear. These are new fans but they don't tow the Speirs party line, there are some that do, we have always welcomed other ethnic and religious backgrounds, don't let others peddle any different.

We are weaker because of this infighting, on the board, RSA / RST, all fighting against one another instead of pulling together, I defend the right of Minstral WVB, Blue Dignity to stand for the history of the club, without it, most of us would not be on this board we'd be supporting some pish team from elsewhere.

WATP

[allthebluebellsRblue 0]

following on from Minstrals thread it has become clear that the media's image of the modern day Rangers support is at least 20 years out of date.

We all know what our history and traditions are - and I'm not saying their is anything wrong with it. There are wide views and opinions surrounding our Protestant heritage and wether it is relevant anymore and this is the way it should be - the world, and this message board would be a little boring if everyone agreed.

We should band together, celebrate our past and move forward to the future as a tolerant support rather than the bigots we are made out to be. Accept that the World has moved on since the old days but in no way forget our history and tradition. We are all Rangers fans after all and this antagonism in unnecessary, our club has enough enemies without our support splitting into factions.

We Are The People

We have moved on, as all religions are welcome at our club. But we will never band together as a support the reason being that some fans dont want anything to do with our Protestant past and traditions. People can put a spin on it, but we are known as a Protestant club all over the world, yet some fans seem ashamed of that fact. People should never forget that its was Protestant fans who helped build our club into the great club, and that includes our fathers and grandfathers. Its sad to say but all the attacks from the media, newspapers and goverment and Eufa are all from catholics who hate what we stand for. In this country it now seems to be a crime to say you are a Protestant Rangers fan. They keep coming after all our songs yet turn a blind eye to the scum who sing songs about bombers who blow up innocent people, yet some of our fans sit back and accept anything flung at us. That is why we will always have a divided support as most of us will fight back, and defend our culture, and to do otherwise would be a sell out to all our absent bears who gave all their life to our club.

thats true but its also sad to say that protestants dont complain enough either most protestants want an easy life just sit back and take it but nearly all catholics complain and get there way too we need to speak out more thats the real problem with our club and people.

[MrSifter 181]

I dont think we need to completely remove our links to Protestantism - just cut off the darker elements of it. I dont think anyone is ashamed of the history but when it manifests itself in anti-Catholicism or para-military singing then it can and will alienate people and will create divisions.

people seem to see this as forgetting our roots, but its not - celebrate the good things and move on from the stuff that has no place in society

I agree we need to be more about celebrating our own culture and heritage.

I would like to know however, just what is the problem with anti-Catholicism? Must we all be, at worst passive, and, at best, in love when it comes to Catholicism?

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

I dont think we need to completely remove our links to Protestantism - just cut off the darker elements of it. I dont think anyone is ashamed of the history but when it manifests itself in anti-Catholicism or para-military singing then it can and will alienate people and will create divisions.

people seem to see this as forgetting our roots, but its not - celebrate the good things and move on from the stuff that has no place in society

That's basically the line I take - although many choose not to see it like that - as I said there is NO denying our past - but we define our future and if we allow the 'extreme' in either support to get the upper hand it will be to the detrimment of our club. I loved the gutteral roar of TBB - we all miss it, but when I started examing the actual words and the issues singing it could bring for the club - I, like many, stopped singing it. Same as the famine song - brilliant wind up, and it worked, and its time has come and gone. I also hate the whole anti-them agenda - imagine if Celtic Club came up with a good idea, many on here would object to it JUST because they thought of it first and not measure it on its merits - go figure!

[outlaw69uk 123]

They are more united than us anyway - They have a few lunatics on the fringe but most of them band together

i would have to agree sadly

As would I, they unite in their hatred of us also. I would guess, if you have a wee look at some of their sites (as some on here do), you will find no threads espousing the class of Davie Cooper, or, how their own fans are bigots. Contrast with here?

You look at the club itself, they also speak out when someone attacks them (and, usually the attacks are fair), yet, we maintain "dignified silence" and, fire into each other. hmm. i dont like giving them any sort of plaudits, but, that is exactly how we should bebehaving, rather than have our own tear into each other

You obviously do not look much - after the 7-1 game last week, another member posted a link to Kerrydale st. When I looked on there at the thread that was linked to, they were just like us, half hating and the other half giving us the respect that our recent form deserved.

True, I dont, due to apathy in general. I wouldnt go to that site, or any other

[TravelingWilBEARy 4,319]

I dont think we need to completely remove our links to Protestantism - just cut off the darker elements of it. I dont think anyone is ashamed of the history but when it manifests itself in anti-Catholicism or para-military singing then it can and will alienate people and will create divisions.

people seem to see this as forgetting our roots, but its not - celebrate the good things and move on from the stuff that has no place in society

I agree we need to be more about celebrating our own culture and heritage.

I would like to know however, just what is the problem with anti-Catholicism? Must we all be, at worst passive, and, at best, in love when it comes to Catholicism?

Anti-Catholicism has no place in society never mind at a football club - and if we indulge in it then we leave ourselves open to attacks from the press, media, general public with the club powerless to defend us

[MrSifter 181]

Anti-Catholicism has no place in society never mind at a football club - and if we indulge in it then we leave ourselves open to attacks from the press, media, general public with the club powerless to defend us

Anti-Catholicism has "no place in society"? A quite ridiculous statement.