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Lessons from the Battle of Tannenberg


D'Artagnan

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All I am asking is that we as fans and the club as a whole concentrate on putting our own house in order before we start pointing fingers elsewhere. If we do put our own house in order then I will be right by your side pointing my finger towards the East End

bauba for the east enders and their pals in the media our house will never be in order unless we are shut down.

Correct DS they won't be happy with anything less, genocide some of them want. ?

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Thats the problem though DA, all the people that are waiting for parity and meanehile the situation gets worse. Why cant we just go ahead and fix our half of the problem? Properly. Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines. Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox? Just actually make a stand instead of pussy-footing about and trying not ot offend anyone, lets make a difference
Are you really that out of touch ?
Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines.

DONE

Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox?

DONE

So in effect you are criticising the club for putting into practice things you yourself are suggesting.

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Who needs the moral high ground ?

All that is required is a bit of parity and equal treatment.

As a military man have you forgotten about the hearts and mind which have to be won that is why we need the moral high ground as recent as the Spanish away game we were right and justice then it all evaporated due to a few morons

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When I say deflect I am nto talking about the club - more so the fans, well, a group of fans, of which you are one.

Care to qualify that comment....and I advise you to be very VERY careful.

You need me to?

Ok, It is simple enough - your refusal to forget what other clubs are doing and concentrate solely on our own problems is deflecting from the real issue at hand. Not just you, but any fan who who either doesnt think we have a problem or is too caught up with Celtics problems or media bias to actually concentrate on our won problems.

Simple enough?

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Thats the problem though DA, all the people that are waiting for parity and meanehile the situation gets worse. Why cant we just go ahead and fix our half of the problem? Properly. Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines. Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox? Just actually make a stand instead of pussy-footing about and trying not ot offend anyone, lets make a difference
Are you really that out of touch ?

Care to qualify that?

Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines.
DONE

No, attempted. Obviously it wasnt done right as the message hasnt gotten through. Thats why I want a BETTER job.

Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox?

DONE

Stragglers. How many of the Red hand in israel Brigade have now been banned from Ibrox? How many of the Spanish offenders are now banned from Ibrox. yes, we ban stragglers, some cynics might say, enough to show the world we are making an effort - yet not near enough to amke a real difference

So in effect you are criticising the club for putting into practice things you yourself are suggesting.

No, just for not doing nearly enough to solve the problem. But at the end of the day you can criticise the club all you want, this is the fans problem more than it is the clubs. It is they that have the responsibility to behave.

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When I say deflect I am nto talking about the club - more so the fans, well, a group of fans, of which you are one.

Care to qualify that comment....and I advise you to be very VERY careful.

Must dash...look forward to your explanation of that comment Bauba.

Tread very carefully

Funny that you take that attitude when I have made myself VERY clear from the word go on this topic.

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No, just for not doing nearly enough to solve the problem. But at the end of the day you can criticise the club all you want, this is the fans problem more than it is the clubs. It is they that have the responsibility to behave.

Hmmm.... not 'we'.

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No, just for not doing nearly enough to solve the problem. But at the end of the day you can criticise the club all you want, this is the fans problem more than it is the clubs. It is they that have the responsibility to behave.

Hmmm.... not 'we'.

HAHAHAHA nice try - no, not we - because I am not one of the ones that misbehave and drag my clubs name through the gutter. it is THEY - the ones that do, that have the responsibility to change their behaviour

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No, just for not doing nearly enough to solve the problem. But at the end of the day you can criticise the club all you want, this is the fans problem more than it is the clubs. It is they that have the responsibility to behave.

Hmmm.... not 'we'.

HAHAHAHA nice try - no, not we - because I am not one of the ones that misbehave and drag my clubs name through the gutter. it is THEY - the ones that do, that have the responsibility to change their behaviour

Shifting grounds again bauba, you didn't say 'they' 'have the responsibility to change their behaviour', you said 'they ... have the responsibility to behave'.

I have no qualms about saying 'we have the responsibility to behave'.

Ever heard of Freudian slips?

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No, just for not doing nearly enough to solve the problem. But at the end of the day you can criticise the club all you want, this is the fans problem more than it is the clubs. It is they that have the responsibility to behave.

Hmmm.... not 'we'.

HAHAHAHA nice try - no, not we - because I am not one of the ones that misbehave and drag my clubs name through the gutter. it is THEY - the ones that do, that have the responsibility to change their behaviour

Shifting grounds again bauba, you didn't say 'they' 'have the responsibility to change their behaviour', you said 'they ... have the responsibility to behave'.

I have no qualms about saying 'we have the responsibility to behave'.

Ever heard of Freudian slips?

No, I dont cross dress.

Why the desire to score cheap points instead of debate the issues at hand? If you had no problem with the message why couldn't you have left it at that?

But ok, if it makes you feel better - WE have to behave better.

jeesh!

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No, just for not doing nearly enough to solve the problem. But at the end of the day you can criticise the club all you want, this is the fans problem more than it is the clubs. It is they that have the responsibility to behave.

Hmmm.... not 'we'.

HAHAHAHA nice try - no, not we - because I am not one of the ones that misbehave and drag my clubs name through the gutter. it is THEY - the ones that do, that have the responsibility to change their behaviour

Shifting grounds again bauba, you didn't say 'they' 'have the responsibility to change their behaviour', you said 'they ... have the responsibility to behave'.

I have no qualms about saying 'we have the responsibility to behave'.

Ever heard of Freudian slips?

No, I dont cross dress.

Why the desire to score cheap points instead of debate the issues at hand? If you had no problem with the message why couldn't you have left it at that?

But ok, if it makes you feel better - WE have to behave better.

jeesh!

You can denigrate my point all you like.

You might think it's 'cheap'.

But I am shocked to see a bear describe fellow bears as 'they', rather than 'we'.

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No, just for not doing nearly enough to solve the problem. But at the end of the day you can criticise the club all you want, this is the fans problem more than it is the clubs. It is they that have the responsibility to behave.

Hmmm.... not 'we'.

HAHAHAHA nice try - no, not we - because I am not one of the ones that misbehave and drag my clubs name through the gutter. it is THEY - the ones that do, that have the responsibility to change their behaviour

Shifting grounds again bauba, you didn't say 'they' 'have the responsibility to change their behaviour', you said 'they ... have the responsibility to behave'.

I have no qualms about saying 'we have the responsibility to behave'.

Ever heard of Freudian slips?

No, I dont cross dress.

Why the desire to score cheap points instead of debate the issues at hand? If you had no problem with the message why couldn't you have left it at that?

But ok, if it makes you feel better - WE have to behave better.

jeesh!

You can denigrate my point all you like.

You might think it's 'cheap'.

But I am shocked to see a bear describe fellow bears as 'they', rather than 'we'.

Again, cheap point scoring

You may have missed it that I live in Chicago, so commuting to the games at home is a rarity for me unfortunately. So again, easy to slip up and call the misbehaving fans "They" because the chances of me bringing shame to Rangers across Europe are slim to none mate

But again, you go ahead and believe what you want - I will still sleep at night

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Thats the problem though DA, all the people that are waiting for parity and meanehile the situation gets worse. Why cant we just go ahead and fix our half of the problem? Properly. Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines. Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox? Just actually make a stand instead of pussy-footing about and trying not ot offend anyone, lets make a difference
Are you really that out of touch ?

Care to qualify that?

Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines.
DONE

No, attempted. Obviously it wasnt done right as the message hasnt gotten through. Thats why I want a BETTER job.

Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox?

DONE

Stragglers. How many of the Red hand in israel Brigade have now been banned from Ibrox? How many of the Spanish offenders are now banned from Ibrox. yes, we ban stragglers, some cynics might say, enough to show the world we are making an effort - yet not near enough to amke a real difference

So in effect you are criticising the club for putting into practice things you yourself are suggesting.

No, just for not doing nearly enough to solve the problem. But at the end of the day you can criticise the club all you want, this is the fans problem more than it is the clubs. It is they that have the responsibility to behave.

Nope Bauba...you aint getting away with that...

I never criticised the club... YOU did...

You were the one who said "Rangers are doing next to nothing"

Or do you need reminded of that as well ?

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When I say deflect I am nto talking about the club - more so the fans, well, a group of fans, of which you are one.

Care to qualify that comment....and I advise you to be very VERY careful.

You need me to?

Ok, It is simple enough - your refusal to forget what other clubs are doing and concentrate solely on our own problems is deflecting from the real issue at hand. Not just you, but any fan who who either doesnt think we have a problem or is too caught up with Celtics problems or media bias to actually concentrate on our won problems.

Simple enough?

On this very messageboard in a variety of threads...

I have condemned supporters who chant FTP

I have condemned supporters who continue to sing banned songs at games

I have condemned supporters who sing about terrorist organsiations

I have condemned supporters who make gestures or salutes which can be misconstrued.

I have condemned supporters who use Rangers as a vehicle for anti-Catholic bigotry.

So tell me where have I suggested we dont have a problem ?

There is a difference between challenging a lack of parity or discrimination....and acknowledging we have a problems.

You cant seem to understand that.

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Thats the problem though DA, all the people that are waiting for parity and meanehile the situation gets worse. Why cant we just go ahead and fix our half of the problem? Properly. Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines. Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox? Just actually make a stand instead of pussy-footing about and trying not ot offend anyone, lets make a difference
Are you really that out of touch ?

Care to qualify that?

Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines.
DONE

No, attempted. Obviously it wasnt done right as the message hasnt gotten through. Thats why I want a BETTER job.

Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox?

DONE

Stragglers. How many of the Red hand in israel Brigade have now been banned from Ibrox? How many of the Spanish offenders are now banned from Ibrox. yes, we ban stragglers, some cynics might say, enough to show the world we are making an effort - yet not near enough to amke a real difference

So in effect you are criticising the club for putting into practice things you yourself are suggesting.

No, just for not doing nearly enough to solve the problem. But at the end of the day you can criticise the club all you want, this is the fans problem more than it is the clubs. It is they that have the responsibility to behave.

Nope Bauba...you aint getting away with that...

I never criticised the club... YOU did...

You were the one who said "Rangers are doing next to nothing"

Or do you need reminded of that as well ?

For goodness sake man, stop trying to score points and debate the topic

You are right - when i said, "You can criticise" that was bad English. I was meaning 'You' in the general sense, not you in particular. Sorry if YOU took it that way.

Now, can we get back to the topic?

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When I say deflect I am nto talking about the club - more so the fans, well, a group of fans, of which you are one.

Care to qualify that comment....and I advise you to be very VERY careful.

You need me to?

Ok, It is simple enough - your refusal to forget what other clubs are doing and concentrate solely on our own problems is deflecting from the real issue at hand. Not just you, but any fan who who either doesnt think we have a problem or is too caught up with Celtics problems or media bias to actually concentrate on our won problems.

Simple enough?

On this very messageboard in a variety of threads...

I have condemned supporters who chant FTP

I have condemned supporters who continue to sing banned songs at games

I have condemned supporters who sing about terrorist organsiations

I have condemned supporters who make gestures or salutes which can be misconstrued.

I have condemned supporters who use Rangers as a vehicle for anti-Catholic bigotry.

So tell me where have I suggested we dont have a problem ?

There is a difference between challenging a lack of parity or discrimination....and acknowledging we have a problems.

You cant seem to understand that.

Au contrair - you dont understand my posts. I acknowledge the above. Am glad to see those posts when they are made. it is where you deflect the issues to argue that "They do it too" that I have a problem. The whoel argument on this thread is that whatever we think of the media - if there is bias or not, that we have to sort out our own house fully and completely - make Ibrox a home for families again and then, only then, can we point fingers at others

Right now it seems we are so caught up in what the other side are or are not doing that it is preventing us from attacing our own problems.

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Thats the problem though DA, all the people that are waiting for parity and meanehile the situation gets worse. Why cant we just go ahead and fix our half of the problem? Properly. Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines. Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox? Just actually make a stand instead of pussy-footing about and trying not ot offend anyone, lets make a difference
Are you really that out of touch ?

Care to qualify that?

Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines.
DONE

No, attempted. Obviously it wasnt done right as the message hasnt gotten through. Thats why I want a BETTER job.

Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox?

DONE

Stragglers. How many of the Red hand in israel Brigade have now been banned from Ibrox? How many of the Spanish offenders are now banned from Ibrox. yes, we ban stragglers, some cynics might say, enough to show the world we are making an effort - yet not near enough to amke a real difference

So in effect you are criticising the club for putting into practice things you yourself are suggesting.

No, just for not doing nearly enough to solve the problem. But at the end of the day you can criticise the club all you want, this is the fans problem more than it is the clubs. It is they that have the responsibility to behave.

Nope Bauba...you aint getting away with that...

I never criticised the club... YOU did...

You were the one who said "Rangers are doing next to nothing"

Or do you need reminded of that as well ?

For goodness sake man, stop trying to score points and debate the topic

You are right - when i said, "You can criticise" that was bad English. I was meaning 'You' in the general sense, not you in particular. Sorry if YOU took it that way.

Now, can we get back to the topic?

try sticking up for our fans we all know we have some bad fans, your on about banning thousands of fans,but we dont have thousands of bad supporters,most of our support deserve credit they way they behave.

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Thats the problem though DA, all the people that are waiting for parity and meanehile the situation gets worse. Why cant we just go ahead and fix our half of the problem? Properly. Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines. Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox? Just actually make a stand instead of pussy-footing about and trying not ot offend anyone, lets make a difference
Are you really that out of touch ?

Care to qualify that?

Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines.
DONE

No, attempted. Obviously it wasnt done right as the message hasnt gotten through. Thats why I want a BETTER job.

Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox?

DONE

Stragglers. How many of the Red hand in israel Brigade have now been banned from Ibrox? How many of the Spanish offenders are now banned from Ibrox. yes, we ban stragglers, some cynics might say, enough to show the world we are making an effort - yet not near enough to amke a real difference

So in effect you are criticising the club for putting into practice things you yourself are suggesting.

No, just for not doing nearly enough to solve the problem. But at the end of the day you can criticise the club all you want, this is the fans problem more than it is the clubs. It is they that have the responsibility to behave.

Nope Bauba...you aint getting away with that...

I never criticised the club... YOU did...

You were the one who said "Rangers are doing next to nothing"

Or do you need reminded of that as well ?

For goodness sake man, stop trying to score points and debate the topic

You are right - when i said, "You can criticise" that was bad English. I was meaning 'You' in the general sense, not you in particular. Sorry if YOU took it that way.

Now, can we get back to the topic?

We are bang on the topic....its just you have tried to turn things and been caught out. Stop squealing about scoring cheap points...people are only citing what you have posted....its not our fault if you contradict or misrepresent yourself with your own words.

You have criticised the club unfairly...regarding their efforts in tackling sectarianism.

You could at the very least be magnanimous to accept that was unfair criticism of our club.

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Thats the problem though DA, all the people that are waiting for parity and meanehile the situation gets worse. Why cant we just go ahead and fix our half of the problem? Properly. Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines. Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox? Just actually make a stand instead of pussy-footing about and trying not ot offend anyone, lets make a difference
Are you really that out of touch ?

Care to qualify that?

Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines.
DONE

No, attempted. Obviously it wasnt done right as the message hasnt gotten through. Thats why I want a BETTER job.

Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox?

DONE

Stragglers. How many of the Red hand in israel Brigade have now been banned from Ibrox? How many of the Spanish offenders are now banned from Ibrox. yes, we ban stragglers, some cynics might say, enough to show the world we are making an effort - yet not near enough to amke a real difference

So in effect you are criticising the club for putting into practice things you yourself are suggesting.

No, just for not doing nearly enough to solve the problem. But at the end of the day you can criticise the club all you want, this is the fans problem more than it is the clubs. It is they that have the responsibility to behave.

Nope Bauba...you aint getting away with that...

I never criticised the club... YOU did...

You were the one who said "Rangers are doing next to nothing"

Or do you need reminded of that as well ?

For goodness sake man, stop trying to score points and debate the topic

You are right - when i said, "You can criticise" that was bad English. I was meaning 'You' in the general sense, not you in particular. Sorry if YOU took it that way.

Now, can we get back to the topic?

try sticking up for our fans we all know we have some bad fans, your on about banning thousands of fans,but we dont have thousands of bad supporters,most of our support deserve credit they way they behave.

Hey Minstral - If 1000 fans transgress, ban the 1000 - if its 5000 - then ban 5000 - Whatever it takes. I would certainly like to see something done about the Red handers in israel and the offendersin Spain. At the very least a final warning.

I agree, the majority of our fans behave fine, got no problem with them. But it is the minority who are driving the perception that the outside world has of us and that is a scary thought

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Thats the problem though DA, all the people that are waiting for parity and meanehile the situation gets worse. Why cant we just go ahead and fix our half of the problem? Properly. Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines. Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox? Just actually make a stand instead of pussy-footing about and trying not ot offend anyone, lets make a difference
Are you really that out of touch ?

Care to qualify that?

Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines.
DONE

No, attempted. Obviously it wasnt done right as the message hasnt gotten through. Thats why I want a BETTER job.

Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox?

DONE

Stragglers. How many of the Red hand in israel Brigade have now been banned from Ibrox? How many of the Spanish offenders are now banned from Ibrox. yes, we ban stragglers, some cynics might say, enough to show the world we are making an effort - yet not near enough to amke a real difference

So in effect you are criticising the club for putting into practice things you yourself are suggesting.

No, just for not doing nearly enough to solve the problem. But at the end of the day you can criticise the club all you want, this is the fans problem more than it is the clubs. It is they that have the responsibility to behave.

Nope Bauba...you aint getting away with that...

I never criticised the club... YOU did...

You were the one who said "Rangers are doing next to nothing"

Or do you need reminded of that as well ?

For goodness sake man, stop trying to score points and debate the topic

You are right - when i said, "You can criticise" that was bad English. I was meaning 'You' in the general sense, not you in particular. Sorry if YOU took it that way.

Now, can we get back to the topic?

We are bang on the topic....its just you have tried to turn things and been caught out. Stop squealing about scoring cheap points...people are only citing what you have posted....its not our fault if you contradict or misrepresent yourself with your own words.

You have criticised the club unfairly...regarding their efforts in tackling sectarianism.

You could at the very least be magnanimous to accept that was unfair criticism of our club.

Sad DA

Anyway, back on topic

I was unfair when I criticized Rangers for tackling Sectarianism? Then tell me, what action has been done that would have prevented Spain happening? What action has been taken on those who participated that night? What action has been done against the red handers in Israel?

I have always said that Rangers have for sure made baby steps and are doing way more than they used to. However the results tell me that their actions are inadequate.

But - I DO blame the trangressing fans more than I blame the club. I just wish the club would come out and be more firm with how they deal with them

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Goodness me, it seems that anybody who disagrees with bauba is scoring cheap points.

And before you say it bauba, yes I know you'll think that was a cheap point.

Disagreeing with me is fine - unlike some I realize that people disagree with me - I am amrried, I have plenty of practise in that regard

Making a post to highlight a grammatical error though, thats scoring cheap points.

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Goodness me, it seems that anybody who disagrees with bauba is scoring cheap points.

And before you say it bauba, yes I know you'll think that was a cheap point.

Disagreeing with me is fine - unlike some I realize that people disagree with me - I am married, I have plenty of practise in that regard

Making a post to highlight a grammatical error though, thats scoring cheap points.

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