Lessons from the Battle of Tannenberg

[*Manticore* 1,893]

Goodness me, it seems that anybody who disagrees with bauba is scoring cheap points.

And before you say it bauba, yes I know you'll think that was a cheap point.

Disagreeing with me is fine - unlike some I realize that people disagree with me - I am amrried, I have plenty of practise in that regard

Making a post to highlight a grammatical error though, thats scoring cheap points.

Describing fellow bears as 'they' rather than 'we' is a wee bit more than a grammatical error.

[bauba30 1]

Goodness me, it seems that anybody who disagrees with bauba is scoring cheap points.

And before you say it bauba, yes I know you'll think that was a cheap point.

Disagreeing with me is fine - unlike some I realize that people disagree with me - I am amrried, I have plenty of practise in that regard

Making a post to highlight a grammatical error though, thats scoring cheap points.

Describing fellow bears as 'they' rather than 'we' is a wee bit more than a grammatical error.

No, it is a grammatical error - of course, you will try and make it more, because your agenda is to discredit those who disagree with you

Go for it mate

As I have said thrice already, I said "they' because it was targeted at the fans who are misbehaving and causing MY club harm. My grammar was off so you took it as meaning something else. That actually says more about you than me but I am not on here to label anyone, I just want to talk about my club

[Skol 401]

For goodness sake this has turned into the most unconstructive debate. Personal attacks and allegations.

From a devil's advocate point of view, it looks as though Bauba is suggesting that Rangers, by the nature of the events in Spain and Israel, could do more to weed out this minority (i.e. the fact that it continues to happen means that more could be done). He also seems to be suggesting that there is not much to be gained from pointing the finger at Celtic, merely to get our own house in order 1st. Celtic can try and kid themselves they are TGFITW but we all know there is a large scumbag element attached to their support. However, finger pointing is not constructive as far as Rangers are concerned, however merited.

I have no doubt that Bauba is a Rangers fan. Why the continual aspersions on this? I don't think he would put up with the constant barrage from D'A and DS if he was a closet Tim!

There is a difference between urging the club to do more and attacking the club. Likewise there is a difference between criticising these idiots who dragged our name through the mud in Spain and attacking all Rangers fans.

The waters seem to have been muddied a bit here and it's depressing to find all this in-fighting.

Maybe if we stopped this pointless bickering the debate could be more constructive.

It seems that a lot of this debate boils down to:

Do you think the club could do more to eradicate sectarian chanting/singing? D'A clearly thinks they can't do any more, Bauba clearly thinks they can.

[Skol 401]

Goodness me, it seems that anybody who disagrees with bauba is scoring cheap points.

And before you say it bauba, yes I know you'll think that was a cheap point.

Disagreeing with me is fine - unlike some I realize that people disagree with me - I am amrried, I have plenty of practise in that regard

Making a post to highlight a grammatical error though, thats scoring cheap points.

Describing fellow bears as 'they' rather than 'we' is a wee bit more than a grammatical error.

Why continually cast all these aspersions? DS, do you believe Bauba is a Celtic supporter or do you believe he made a grammatical mistake?

Hopefully this will save countless electronic trees from being chopped down to make pixelated paper.

ps - 3rd option, neither of the above

[bauba30 1]

For goodness sake this has turned into the most unconstructive debate. Personal attacks and allegations.

From a devil's advocate point of view, it looks as though Bauba is suggesting that Rangers, by the nature of the events in Spain and Israel, could do more to weed out this minority (i.e. the fact that it continues to happen means that more could be done). He also seems to be suggesting that there is not much to be gained from pointing the finger at Celtic, merely to get our own house in order 1st. Celtic can try and kid themselves they are TGFITW but we all know there is a large scumbag element attached to their support. However, finger pointing is not constructive as far as Rangers are concerned, however merited.

I have no doubt that Bauba is a Rangers fan. Why the continual aspersions on this? I don't think he would put up with the constant barrage from D'A and DS if he was a closet Tim!

There is a difference between urging the club to do more and attacking the club. Likewise there is a difference between criticising these idiots who dragged our name through the mud in Spain and attacking all Rangers fans.

The waters seem to have been muddied a bit here and it's depressing to find all this in-fighting.

Maybe if we stopped this pointless bickering the debate could be more constructive.

It seems that a lot of this debate boils down to:

Do you think the club could do more to eradicate sectarian chanting/singing? D'A clearly thinks they can't do any more, Bauba clearly thinks they can.

Thanks mate - then I am not going crazy.

[bauba30 1]

Goodness me, it seems that anybody who disagrees with bauba is scoring cheap points.

And before you say it bauba, yes I know you'll think that was a cheap point.

Disagreeing with me is fine - unlike some I realize that people disagree with me - I am amrried, I have plenty of practise in that regard

Making a post to highlight a grammatical error though, thats scoring cheap points.

Describing fellow bears as 'they' rather than 'we' is a wee bit more than a grammatical error.

Why continually cast all these aspersions? DS, do you believe Bauba is a Celtic supporter or do you believe he made a grammatical mistake?

Hopefully this will save countless electronic trees from being chopped down to make pixelated paper.

ps - 3rd option, neither of the above

Again, thanks - anyone who knows me knows where my allegiances lie and that I only want us to move forward as a club without providing ammo for outsiders to attack us.

And yes, it was a grammatical error. Comes from trying to type this stuff at work behind the bosses back and thus not getting the chance to read the stuff over before I hit "ADD REPLY"

[minstral 5,375]

For goodness sake this has turned into the most unconstructive debate. Personal attacks and allegations.

From a devil's advocate point of view, it looks as though Bauba is suggesting that Rangers, by the nature of the events in Spain and Israel, could do more to weed out this minority (i.e. the fact that it continues to happen means that more could be done). He also seems to be suggesting that there is not much to be gained from pointing the finger at Celtic, merely to get our own house in order 1st. Celtic can try and kid themselves they are TGFITW but we all know there is a large scumbag element attached to their support. However, finger pointing is not constructive as far as Rangers are concerned, however merited.

I have no doubt that Bauba is a Rangers fan. Why the continual aspersions on this? I don't think he would put up with the constant barrage from D'A and DS if he was a closet Tim!

There is a difference between urging the club to do more and attacking the club. Likewise there is a difference between criticising these idiots who dragged our name through the mud in Spain and attacking all Rangers fans.

The waters seem to have been muddied a bit here and it's depressing to find all this in-fighting.

Maybe if we stopped this pointless bickering the debate could be more constructive.

It seems that a lot of this debate boils down to:

Do you think the club could do more to eradicate sectarian chanting/singing? D'A clearly thinks they can't do any more, Bauba clearly thinks they can.

Thanks mate - then I am not going crazy.

your on about the red hand salute in spain which there is no place for in our club,but what about all the fans including woman and children who were attacked and battered with batons and who were innocent fans.you have not come out and defended those fans which should have been the first thing you did.

[Skol 401]

Goodness me, it seems that anybody who disagrees with bauba is scoring cheap points.

And before you say it bauba, yes I know you'll think that was a cheap point.

Disagreeing with me is fine - unlike some I realize that people disagree with me - I am amrried, I have plenty of practise in that regard

Making a post to highlight a grammatical error though, thats scoring cheap points.

Describing fellow bears as 'they' rather than 'we' is a wee bit more than a grammatical error.

Why continually cast all these aspersions? DS, do you believe Bauba is a Celtic supporter or do you believe he made a grammatical mistake?

Hopefully this will save countless electronic trees from being chopped down to make pixelated paper.

ps - 3rd option, neither of the above

I only want us to move forward as a club without providing ammo for outsiders to attack us.

In many ways it's good we have such passionate debate about this as we are all Rangers fans and it shows how much we care.

From his posts I know that DS for example is a massive Rangers fan, even following them to Europe which is something I've not managed to do and he should be commended for it.

However, I firmly believe we need to stop the bickering and look at realistic ways to help the club because there are many ot there who would like to see us flounder.

Rangers Forever.

[bauba30 1]

For goodness sake this has turned into the most unconstructive debate. Personal attacks and allegations.

From a devil's advocate point of view, it looks as though Bauba is suggesting that Rangers, by the nature of the events in Spain and Israel, could do more to weed out this minority (i.e. the fact that it continues to happen means that more could be done). He also seems to be suggesting that there is not much to be gained from pointing the finger at Celtic, merely to get our own house in order 1st. Celtic can try and kid themselves they are TGFITW but we all know there is a large scumbag element attached to their support. However, finger pointing is not constructive as far as Rangers are concerned, however merited.

I have no doubt that Bauba is a Rangers fan. Why the continual aspersions on this? I don't think he would put up with the constant barrage from D'A and DS if he was a closet Tim!

There is a difference between urging the club to do more and attacking the club. Likewise there is a difference between criticising these idiots who dragged our name through the mud in Spain and attacking all Rangers fans.

The waters seem to have been muddied a bit here and it's depressing to find all this in-fighting.

Maybe if we stopped this pointless bickering the debate could be more constructive.

It seems that a lot of this debate boils down to:

Do you think the club could do more to eradicate sectarian chanting/singing? D'A clearly thinks they can't do any more, Bauba clearly thinks they can.

Thanks mate - then I am not going crazy.

your on about the red hand salute in spain which there is no place for in our club,but what about all the fans including woman and children who were attacked and battered with batons and who were innocent fans.you have not come out and defended those fans which should have been the first thing you did.

Because thats not part of the debate on this thread - of course that is wrong and whatever canbe done to gain an aology or even compensation should be done. But again, as bad as that treatment was, that wasn't part of this thread, it would merely be defelcting from the main theme

[bauba30 1]

Goodness me, it seems that anybody who disagrees with bauba is scoring cheap points.

And before you say it bauba, yes I know you'll think that was a cheap point.

Disagreeing with me is fine - unlike some I realize that people disagree with me - I am amrried, I have plenty of practise in that regard

Making a post to highlight a grammatical error though, thats scoring cheap points.

Describing fellow bears as 'they' rather than 'we' is a wee bit more than a grammatical error.

Why continually cast all these aspersions? DS, do you believe Bauba is a Celtic supporter or do you believe he made a grammatical mistake?

Hopefully this will save countless electronic trees from being chopped down to make pixelated paper.

ps - 3rd option, neither of the above

I only want us to move forward as a club without providing ammo for outsiders to attack us.

In many ways it's good we have such passionate debate about this as we are all Rangers fans and it shows how much we care.

From his posts I know that DS for example is a massive Rangers fan, even following them to Europe which is something I've not managed to do and he should be commended for it.

However, I firmly believe we need to stop the bickering and look at realistic ways to help the club because there are many ot there who would like to see us flounder.

Rangers Forever.

Im with you 100 per cent. In fact I have made suggestions to that effect. We need to do somethng anyway, that much is clear

[minstral 5,375]

For goodness sake this has turned into the most unconstructive debate. Personal attacks and allegations.

From a devil's advocate point of view, it looks as though Bauba is suggesting that Rangers, by the nature of the events in Spain and Israel, could do more to weed out this minority (i.e. the fact that it continues to happen means that more could be done). He also seems to be suggesting that there is not much to be gained from pointing the finger at Celtic, merely to get our own house in order 1st. Celtic can try and kid themselves they are TGFITW but we all know there is a large scumbag element attached to their support. However, finger pointing is not constructive as far as Rangers are concerned, however merited.

I have no doubt that Bauba is a Rangers fan. Why the continual aspersions on this? I don't think he would put up with the constant barrage from D'A and DS if he was a closet Tim!

There is a difference between urging the club to do more and attacking the club. Likewise there is a difference between criticising these idiots who dragged our name through the mud in Spain and attacking all Rangers fans.

The waters seem to have been muddied a bit here and it's depressing to find all this in-fighting.

Maybe if we stopped this pointless bickering the debate could be more constructive.

It seems that a lot of this debate boils down to:

Do you think the club could do more to eradicate sectarian chanting/singing? D'A clearly thinks they can't do any more, Bauba clearly thinks they can.

Thanks mate - then I am not going crazy.

your on about the red hand salute in spain which there is no place for in our club,but what about all the fans including woman and children who were attacked and battered with batons and who were innocent fans.you have not come out and defended those fans which should have been the first thing you did.

Because thats not part of the debate on this thread - of course that is wrong and whatever canbe done to gain an aology or even compensation should be done. But again, as bad as that treatment was, that wasn't part of this thread, it would merely be defelcting from the main theme

i think everything has come into this thread.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Thats the problem though DA, all the people that are waiting for parity and meanehile the situation gets worse. Why cant we just go ahead and fix our half of the problem? Properly. Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines. Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox? Just actually make a stand instead of pussy-footing about and trying not ot offend anyone, lets make a difference

Are you really that out of touch ?

Care to qualify that?

Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines.

DONE

No, attempted. Obviously it wasnt done right as the message hasnt gotten through. Thats why I want a BETTER job.

Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox?

DONE

Stragglers. How many of the Red hand in israel Brigade have now been banned from Ibrox? How many of the Spanish offenders are now banned from Ibrox. yes, we ban stragglers, some cynics might say, enough to show the world we are making an effort - yet not near enough to amke a real difference

So in effect you are criticising the club for putting into practice things you yourself are suggesting.

No, just for not doing nearly enough to solve the problem. But at the end of the day you can criticise the club all you want, this is the fans problem more than it is the clubs. It is they that have the responsibility to behave.

Nope Bauba...you aint getting away with that...

I never criticised the club... YOU did...

You were the one who said "Rangers are doing next to nothing"

Or do you need reminded of that as well ?

For goodness sake man, stop trying to score points and debate the topic

You are right - when i said, "You can criticise" that was bad English. I was meaning 'You' in the general sense, not you in particular. Sorry if YOU took it that way.

Now, can we get back to the topic?

We are bang on the topic....its just you have tried to turn things and been caught out. Stop squealing about scoring cheap points...people are only citing what you have posted....its not our fault if you contradict or misrepresent yourself with your own words.

You have criticised the club unfairly...regarding their efforts in tackling sectarianism.

You could at the very least be magnanimous to accept that was unfair criticism of our club.

Sad DA

Anyway, back on topic

I was unfair when I criticized Rangers for tackling Sectarianism? Then tell me, what action has been done that would have prevented Spain happening? What action has been taken on those who participated that night? What action has been done against the red handers in Israel?

I have always said that Rangers have for sure made baby steps and are doing way more than they used to. However the results tell me that their actions are inadequate.

But - I DO blame the trangressing fans more than I blame the club. I just wish the club would come out and be more firm with how they deal with them

Are you really this stupid ? Or are you just determined to continually blame Rangers ?

Let me tell you about Spain.

Rangers security chief flagged up a no. of concerns to both Ossusuna and UEFA regarding a no. of issues including inadequate segregation and also the sale of tickets in Spain. UEFA agreed and told the Spaniards to sort it out - which they didnt.

Those identified as the ringleaders of the trouble in Spain are BANNED sin die from Ibrox. Lifetime bans.

Unlike England Scotland has no laws pertaining to the movement of fans abroad....therefore there was absolutely nothing Rangers could do to prevent these fans travelling - it would have been a breach of their human rights.

Furthermore the Spaniards failure to respond to both Rangers and UEFA's concerns regarding the sale of tickets meant these fans were able to acquire them. Again not Rangers fault.

So my question to you is this - tell me what more Rangers FC could have done to prevent these people attending at the match. ?

[bauba30 1]

Thats the problem though DA, all the people that are waiting for parity and meanehile the situation gets worse. Why cant we just go ahead and fix our half of the problem? Properly. Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines. Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox? Just actually make a stand instead of pussy-footing about and trying not ot offend anyone, lets make a difference

Are you really that out of touch ?

Care to qualify that?

Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines.

DONE

No, attempted. Obviously it wasnt done right as the message hasnt gotten through. Thats why I want a BETTER job.

Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox?

DONE

Stragglers. How many of the Red hand in israel Brigade have now been banned from Ibrox? How many of the Spanish offenders are now banned from Ibrox. yes, we ban stragglers, some cynics might say, enough to show the world we are making an effort - yet not near enough to amke a real difference

So in effect you are criticising the club for putting into practice things you yourself are suggesting.

No, just for not doing nearly enough to solve the problem. But at the end of the day you can criticise the club all you want, this is the fans problem more than it is the clubs. It is they that have the responsibility to behave.

Nope Bauba...you aint getting away with that...

I never criticised the club... YOU did...

You were the one who said "Rangers are doing next to nothing"

Or do you need reminded of that as well ?

For goodness sake man, stop trying to score points and debate the topic

You are right - when i said, "You can criticise" that was bad English. I was meaning 'You' in the general sense, not you in particular. Sorry if YOU took it that way.

Now, can we get back to the topic?

We are bang on the topic....its just you have tried to turn things and been caught out. Stop squealing about scoring cheap points...people are only citing what you have posted....its not our fault if you contradict or misrepresent yourself with your own words.

You have criticised the club unfairly...regarding their efforts in tackling sectarianism.

You could at the very least be magnanimous to accept that was unfair criticism of our club.

Sad DA

Anyway, back on topic

I was unfair when I criticized Rangers for tackling Sectarianism? Then tell me, what action has been done that would have prevented Spain happening? What action has been taken on those who participated that night? What action has been done against the red handers in Israel?

I have always said that Rangers have for sure made baby steps and are doing way more than they used to. However the results tell me that their actions are inadequate.

But - I DO blame the trangressing fans more than I blame the club. I just wish the club would come out and be more firm with how they deal with them

Are you really this stupid ? Or are you just determined to continually blame Rangers ?

Let me tell you about Spain.

Rangers security chief flagged up a no. of concerns to both Ossusuna and UEFA regarding a no. of issues including inadequate segregation and also the sale of tickets in Spain. UEFA agreed and told the Spaniards to sort it out - which they didnt.

Those identified as the ringleaders of the trouble in Spain are BANNED sin die from Ibrox. Lifetime bans.

Unlike England Scotland has no laws pertaining to the movement of fans abroad....therefore there was absolutely nothing Rangers could do to prevent these fans travelling - it would have been a breach of their human rights.

Furthermore the Spaniards failure to respond to both Rangers and UEFA's concerns regarding the sale of tickets meant these fans were able to acquire them. Again not Rangers fault.

So my question to you is this - tell me what more Rangers FC could have done to prevent these people attending at the match. ?

Cut off their Goolies?

So because you cant think of any way to stop it, you just give up?

What I would do is ban those who took part in the offensive chanting - not just the ringleaders - every last one of them.

Of course, stewarding and policing was not good and they have to take share of the blame for what happened but so do we. Is it acceptable to you for those fans to chant what they did or not? I certainly dont wantmy club associated with it, thats for sure.

What needs to happen is some sort of supporters ID system, smililar to the one in England in the 80s. Issue IDs to all Rangers fans, only give tickets to those fans registered. Then foreign po lice/stewards can ask for that ID before granting access into their grounds.

Well, what if someone registers then buys groups of tickets to pass onto their non-registered mates? Well if that is the case you ban the person who bought the tickets

There you go, somethong like that

And a request - can you please cut out the personal attacks like the first line in your last post? One, it does you no credit whatsoever and two, it really isnt the way grown people should be communicating. Sure, we dont agree, but can we agree to stick to the point and not to let it slip to personal abuse?

Thanks

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Cut off their Goolies?

So because you cant think of any way to stop it, you just give up?

What I would do is ban those who took part in the offensive chanting - not just the ringleaders - every last one of them.

Of course, stewarding and policing was not good and they have to take share of the blame for what happened but so do we. Is it acceptable to you for those fans to chant what they did or not? I certainly dont wantmy club associated with it, thats for sure.

What needs to happen is some sort of supporters ID system, smililar to the one in England in the 80s. Issue IDs to all Rangers fans, only give tickets to those fans registered. Then foreign po lice/stewards can ask for that ID before granting access into their grounds.

Well, what if someone registers then buys groups of tickets to pass onto their non-registered mates? Well if that is the case you ban the person who bought the tickets

There you go, somethong like that

And a request - can you please cut out the personal attacks like the first line in your last post? One, it does you no credit whatsoever and two, it really isnt the way grown people should be communicating. Sure, we dont agree, but can we agree to stick to the point and not to let it slip to personal abuse?

Thanks

..

I'll do a deal with you bauba....you stop unfairly slating my football club and I will stop highlighting your stupidity.

So because you cant think of any way to stop it, you just give up?

Nope...the point is though Rangers did everything they could within the law to prevent this happening - in which case having tried everything and being let down by the hostsing club, your continued criticism of Rangers is unfair.

What needs to happen is some sort of supporters ID system, smililar to the one in England in the 80s. Issue IDs to all Rangers fans, only give tickets to those fans registered.

It already happens to an extent via the travel club and supporters club. But it is undermined at away matches when the hosting club do as Ossusuna did and fail to restrict sale of tickets as per UEFA guidelines. By my counting now thats about 4 suggestions you have made Bauba which Rangers already do or did.

Well, what if someone registers then buys groups of tickets to pass onto their non-registered mates? Well if that is the case you ban the person who bought the tickets

Thats exactly what happened at Tynecastle - what was Rangers course of action ? They suspended the whole supporters club in question.

Over to you.

[Skol 401]

D'A I agree that Rangers have taken some very commendable measures to try and restrict this sort of thing from happening.

I'm interested though, do you think we should rest on our laurels or do you think there is anything more that could be done? If so, what do you have in mind?

I'm interested in making this more constructive.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

D'A I agree that Rangers have taken some very commendable measures to try and restrict this sort of thing from happening.

I'm interested though, do you think we should rest on our laurels or do you think there is anything more that could be done? If so, what do you have in mind?

I'm interested in making this more constructive.

With the current law provision SC - there is absolutely nothing else we could have done. Simple as that.

Its seems illogical that supporters we have banned from Ibrox can travel abroad and shame the club. We need restriction of movement orders or incorporate it into the new football banning orders.

[bauba30 1]

Thats the problem though DA, all the people that are waiting for parity and meanehile the situation gets worse. Why cant we just go ahead and fix our half of the problem? Properly. Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines. Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox? Just actually make a stand instead of pussy-footing about and trying not ot offend anyone, lets make a difference

Are you really that out of touch ?

Care to qualify that?

Why cant we do a better job of communicating to the fans how we wish them to behave, give them proper guidlines.

DONE

No, attempted. Obviously it wasnt done right as the message hasnt gotten through. Thats why I want a BETTER job.

Then if fans persist in breaking those guidlines, why cant we evict them and ban them from ibrox?

DONE

Stragglers. How many of the Red hand in israel Brigade have now been banned from Ibrox? How many of the Spanish offenders are now banned from Ibrox. yes, we ban stragglers, some cynics might say, enough to show the world we are making an effort - yet not near enough to amke a real difference

So in effect you are criticising the club for putting into practice things you yourself are suggesting.

No, just for not doing nearly enough to solve the problem. But at the end of the day you can criticise the club all you want, this is the fans problem more than it is the clubs. It is they that have the responsibility to behave.

Nope Bauba...you aint getting away with that...

I never criticised the club... YOU did...

You were the one who said "Rangers are doing next to nothing"

Or do you need reminded of that as well ?

For goodness sake man, stop trying to score points and debate the topic

You are right - when i said, "You can criticise" that was bad English. I was meaning 'You' in the general sense, not you in particular. Sorry if YOU took it that way.

Now, can we get back to the topic?

We are bang on the topic....its just you have tried to turn things and been caught out. Stop squealing about scoring cheap points...people are only citing what you have posted....its not our fault if you contradict or misrepresent yourself with your own words.

You have criticised the club unfairly...regarding their efforts in tackling sectarianism.

You could at the very least be magnanimous to accept that was unfair criticism of our club.

Sad DA

Anyway, back on topic

I was unfair when I criticized Rangers for tackling Sectarianism? Then tell me, what action has been done that would have prevented Spain happening? What action has been taken on those who participated that night? What action has been done against the red handers in Israel?

I have always said that Rangers have for sure made baby steps and are doing way more than they used to. However the results tell me that their actions are inadequate.

But - I DO blame the trangressing fans more than I blame the club. I just wish the club would come out and be more firm with how they deal with them

Are you really this stupid ? Or are you just determined to continually blame Rangers ?

Let me tell you about Spain.

Rangers security chief flagged up a no. of concerns to both Ossusuna and UEFA regarding a no. of issues including inadequate segregation and also the sale of tickets in Spain. UEFA agreed and told the Spaniards to sort it out - which they didnt.

Those identified as the ringleaders of the trouble in Spain are BANNED sin die from Ibrox. Lifetime bans.

Unlike England Scotland has no laws pertaining to the movement of fans abroad....therefore there was absolutely nothing Rangers could do to prevent these fans travelling - it would have been a breach of their human rights.

Furthermore the Spaniards failure to respond to both Rangers and UEFA's concerns regarding the sale of tickets meant these fans were able to acquire them. Again not Rangers fault.

So my question to you is this - tell me what more Rangers FC could have done to prevent these people attending at the match. ?

Cut off their Goolies?

So because you cant think of any way to stop it, you just give up?

What I would do is ban those who took part in the offensive chanting - not just the ringleaders - every last one of them.

Of course, stewarding and policing was not good and they have to take share of the blame for what happened but so do we. Is it acceptable to you for those fans to chant what they did or not? I certainly dont wantmy club associated with it, thats for sure.

What needs to happen is some sort of supporters ID system, smililar to the one in England in the 80s. Issue IDs to all Rangers fans, only give tickets to those fans registered. Then foreign po lice/stewards can ask for that ID before granting access into their grounds.

Well, what if someone registers then buys groups of tickets to pass onto their non-registered mates? Well if that is the case you ban the person who bought the tickets

There you go, somethong like that

And a request - can you please cut out the personal attacks like the first line in your last post? One, it does you no credit whatsoever and two, it really isnt the way grown people should be communicating. Sure, we dont agree, but can we agree to stick to the point and not to let it slip to personal abuse?

Thanks

I'll do a deal with you bauba....you stop unfairly slating my football club and I will stop highlighting your stupidity.

****Funny, because Ive criticised a section of the support way more than I have the club - is that what has your panties in a bunch? So in other words - you will start ebing cordial if I simply start agreeing with everything you say? Ever work for pravda DA?*****

So because you cant think of any way to stop it, you just give up?

Nope...the point is though Rangers did everything they could within the law to prevent this happening - in which case having tried everything and being let down by the hostsing club, your continued criticism of Rangers is unfair.

****Was there an ad campaign urging fans without tickets not to travel? I asked my brother and he said he never saw much at all. Either way, it is not really the preventative measures in this case that I have a problem with. In fact, I dont have much of a problem in this case with the club other than they could have been more strict with the fans who were shown to have caused trouble/chanted inappropriate slogans. My real beef in Spain is with the idiot fans who blotted my teams copybook in Europe once again.*****

What needs to happen is some sort of supporters ID system, smililar to the one in England in the 80s. Issue IDs to all Rangers fans, only give tickets to those fans registered.

It already happens to an extent via the travel club and supporters club. But it is undermined at away matches when the hosting club do as Ossusuna did and fail to restrict sale of tickets as per UEFA guidelines. By my counting now thats about 4 suggestions you have made Bauba which Rangers already do or did.

****Erm no - what happens nwo is only part of my suggestion. ONLY SELL TICKETS TO REGISTERED FANS AND COOPERATE WITH THE FOREIGN POLICE/STEWARDS TO MAKE SURE ONLY REGISTERED FANS GET IN - ALSO - have a list of banned fans complete with photos given to the foreign authorities well in advance of the match. Your version - the one we have now, is full oh holes. This one, though far from perfect, has less holes*****

Well, what if someone registers then buys groups of tickets to pass onto their non-registered mates? Well if that is the case you ban the person who bought the tickets

Thats exactly what happened at Tynecastle - what was Rangers course of action ? They suspended the whole supporters club in question.

****yeah, that nabbed what? 3 fans? Again, Ive said this before, Kudos to Rangers for that occasion. They did right on that occasion. I think they could do that thjough when the numbers are higher. Maybe it was covenient for them to make an impression on a club with just 3 memebers present

Here is the deal though. You keep trying to say I am out to get the club. I am not. I do think they could do a bit more, be tougher, but by far my largest beef is with the fans who continually shame us. it is THEIR responsibility to cut it out now, before my club gets into big time trouble with UEFA. because if it comes to that, and our club is threatened, there will be a group of fans that just will not be welcomed at Ibrox. ****

Over to you.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Its quite simple Bauba - your continual and persistent criticism of our club with regard to tackling sectarianism is unfair.

You keep making suggestions - most of which have already been implemented by the club...some of the others you have suggested have no legal basis for implementation. Its not Rangers fault Scotland is behind England with regard to Football Banning orders particulalry abroad.

Im not asking you to agree with me....Im asking you to acknowledge that your comment about Rangers doing "next to nothing" to tackle sectarianism is not only erroneous but hugely unfair.

Or perhaps you know better than UEFA and the other authorities who have both praised and rewarded Rangers for their efforts.

[bauba30 1]

Its quite simple Bauba - your continual and persistent criticism of our club with regard to tackling sectarianism is unfair.

You keep making suggestions - most of which have already been implemented by the club...some of the others you have suggested have no legal basis for implementation. Its not Rangers fault Scotland is behind England with regard to Football Banning orders particulalry abroad.

Im not asking you to agree with me....Im asking you to acknowledge that your comment about Rangers doing "next to nothing" to tackle sectarianism is not only erroneous but hugely unfair.

Or perhaps you know better than UEFA and the other authorities who have both praised and rewarded Rangers for their efforts.

I'll say this once more - Rangers could do more by banning more fans who shame us abroad. The fans themselves could do more by behaving or at the very least police themselves better. If it means shopping some of the idiots then so be at

By the way, as for attacking the club, I am no more attacking the club than some others are when they say we should be defending ourselves more against attacks from the press. At least I am givng a suggestion.

Quote frankly, whether you believe we re doing aqll we legally can or not, it is irrellevant as there is still bother on an almost weekly basis. I just hope we dont hit rock bottom as a club (banned from Europe) before we realize the error of our ways.

[Frankie 505]

I'd not frightened to criticise Rangers but in terms of combatting this problem they have done a lot of work in the last year for minimal praise in the media. UEFA featured the club's work in special brochure they produced late last year but that was ignored by the likes of McNee and Traynor.

Yes, of course they can do more and we should all be trying to help them by self-policing. However, at the same time, neither do we deserve to be singled out for the now almost daily attacks on our club and our kin.

This summer will see an exciting GersPride conference where we can all have our say on this subject (amongst others). If anyone has interesting, reasonable and workable suggestions for tackling the bigotry problem, please, please contact the Trust and we'll ensure they are considered by the club.

It's easy to complain in papers. It's easy to complain on internet forums. What we need is practical action and as far as I can see Rangers and the RST are the only ones attempting to provide that. Only to be attacked again by a worthless old hack in his usual negative Sunday column.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

I'll say this once more - Rangers could do more by banning more fans who shame us abroad. The fans themselves could do more by behaving or at the very least police themselves better. If it means shopping some of the idiots then so be at

How ? Within the current legislation tell me how ?

By the way, as for attacking the club, I am no more attacking the club than some others are when they say we should be defending ourselves more against attacks from the press. At least I am givng a suggestion.

Quote frankly, whether you believe we re doing aqll we legally can or not, it is irrellevant as there is still bother on an almost weekly basis. I just hope we dont hit rock bottom as a club (banned from Europe) before we realize the error of our ways.

Oh yes you are. You said Rangers are doing next to nothing to tackle sectarianism. The fact is they are doing a whole lot to tackle sectarianism - so much much so they have won awards and been praised by UEFA themselves.

The club have been silent with regard to press atacks other than 1 statement from SDM stating if a publication offends - dont buy it.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

Why continually cast all these aspersions? DS, do you believe Bauba is a Celtic supporter or do you believe he made a grammatical mistake?

Hopefully this will save countless electronic trees from being chopped down to make pixelated paper.

ps - 3rd option, neither of the above

You know when there were dhims around here whenever you said something they didn't like one would accuse of 'continually' going on about it, sometimes after one mention. And tell me once, before today when I suggested such a thing?

And you know, that sort of alleged 'grammatical mistake' is exactly how deep cover tims get found out.

That together with criticising bears at every opportunity yet turning a blind eye to our enemies transgressions, no concern that we are bombarded in the press and they are loved.

And living overseas therefore never at games, all fits.

What happened continually, what ruined so many 'countless electronic trees' is how much bauba protested about me pointing out that he described bears as 'they' rather than 'we'. Try accusing me of being a tim, I'll not waste much time defending myself against a dumb accusation.

All in all he probably is a bear, a cussed, opinionated one. Just like me.

[bauba30 1]

I'll say this once more - Rangers could do more by banning more fans who shame us abroad. The fans themselves could do more by behaving or at the very least police themselves better. If it means shopping some of the idiots then so be at

How ? Within the current legislation tell me how ?

By the way, as for attacking the club, I am no more attacking the club than some others are when they say we should be defending ourselves more against attacks from the press. At least I am givng a suggestion.

Quote frankly, whether you believe we re doing aqll we legally can or not, it is irrellevant as there is still bother on an almost weekly basis. I just hope we dont hit rock bottom as a club (banned from Europe) before we realize the error of our ways.

Oh yes you are. You said Rangers are doing next to nothing to tackle sectarianism. The fact is they are doing a whole lot to tackle sectarianism - so much much so they have won awards and been praised by UEFA themselves.

The club have been silent with regard to press atacks other than 1 statement from SDM stating if a publication offends - dont buy it.

How? Simple - from video or picture evidence identify and ban the idiots from Ibrox. That part they can enforce. In Europe that cant as of yet but we keep going the way we are and that will be needed pretty soon.

There seems to be an attitude by some that because the fans were our 'Away' fans then there's nothing we can do. Nonsense, ban them from Ibrox, from Travel clubs etc. Of course this would mean a communicade from Rangers first warning about this action should the behaviour continue.

DA, I said many times today, too many, I wasnt so much concerned with what we did to prevent people travelling to Spain, I'm not daft I know right now that cant be stopped. I was concerned however that not much has seemed to have been done since the incident. Who knows, maybe behind the scenes scores of fans have been banned, I dont know, if thats the case, they need to publicise it. But you can be sure that if the club were firmer with those that trangressed away from home, the thought of their season tickets being removed from them would be a more than decent deterrant.

Can we do more? We HAVE to do more. Fans and club together because right now isnt good enough

On your last point, ah what's the point.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

So do you now agree that your statement that Rangers were doing next to nothing to tackle sectarianism is fundamentally wrong ?

[bauba30 1]

Why continually cast all these aspersions? DS, do you believe Bauba is a Celtic supporter or do you believe he made a grammatical mistake?

Hopefully this will save countless electronic trees from being chopped down to make pixelated paper.

ps - 3rd option, neither of the above

You know when there were dhims around here whenever you said something they didn't like one would accuse of 'continually' going on about it, sometimes after one mention. And tell me once, before today when I suggested such a thing?

And you know, that sort of alleged 'grammatical mistake' is exactly how deep cover tims get found out.

That together with criticising bears at every opportunity yet turning a blind eye to our enemies transgressions, no concern that we are bombarded in the press and they are loved.

And living overseas therefore never at games, all fits.

What happened continually, what ruined so many 'countless electronic trees' is how much bauba protested about me pointing out that he described bears as 'they' rather than 'we'. Try accusing me of being a tim, I'll not waste much time defending myself against a dumb accusation.

All in all he probably is a bear, a cussed, opinionated one. Just like me.

David, what do I have to do to convince you?

My first Rangers game was the John Greig Testimonal - Rangers 5 Scotland 0 in 1976. 66000 fans in Ibrox that day.

Favorite player is Davie Cooper - IMO the best Scottish player in the last 25 years.

Favorite game seen live was League Cup Final (84) when we gubbed Celtic 3-2 AET with Coisty grabbing a hat-tick - best moment was Teams came out to line up and Jock Wallace lined the team up by a green flag. He took one look at it, ripped it out of the turf and lobbed it away

LOL

Quite frankly, Ive forgotten more about Rangers than most folk on here know. I am completely at ease with what kind of Gers man I am - and I don't need to go around accusing fellow Gers fans of being Tims to prove anything to myself. On you go, I am fine with it