"Fenian" is sectarian and its use can lead to ..

[Bluepeter9]

There has been a lot of debate on here about the use of the word "fenian" and could you get "fined" for its use.

Now as I understand you need to be charged with asult or breach of the piece in ADDITION to the religious aggrivation charge for it to stick - i.e. You need to be in some sort of trouble to have the aggravated bit added to your charge...

.. In my local paper (Livingston Courier) , in a slightly bizzare case (in that the 3 found guilty were dressed as 3 super heroes (sic)) they were charged with aggrivated Breach of the piece and assault and the quote in the paper to justify the aggrivation was the use of the word "fenian" and the singing of "Rangers songs" - now it has to be said these 3 came across as pissed up numpties and deserve to be in court and their fines were increased due to the agggrivated nature of their idiocy.

[gunslinger]

There has been a lot of debate on here about the use of the word "fenian" and could you get "fined" for its use.

Now as I understand you need to be charged with asult or breach of the piece in ADDITION to the religious aggrivation charge for it to stick - i.e. You need to be in some sort of trouble to have the aggravated bit added to your charge...

.. In my local paper (Livingston Courier) , in a slightly bizzare case (in that the 3 found guilty were dressed as 3 super heroes (sic)) they were charged with aggrivated Breach of the piece and assault and the quote in the paper to justify the aggrivation was the use of the word "fenian" and the singing of "Rangers songs" - now it has to be said these 3 came across as pissed up numpties and deserve to be in court and their fines were increased due to the agggrivated nature of their idiocy.

yes

i believe that to be the case. you have to commit a breach then they start tagging the addon in.

[Smile]

What about singing Paddy McCourt fenian army.

Is that ok or is it just when we say it.

[Carsons Dog]

The Scottish Justice system

Moving the goalposts to suit the MOPE's since 1888

[Gaffbear]

Time to make up new laws where rangers are concerned eh. . . Fenian bastards have threatened todays wedding. But thats ok. But to hate them is an offence. . . Welcome to earths most backward nation

[caseyjones]

Breach of the peace is a 'one size fits all' law in itself, and adding a sectarian element to it just makes it open to abuse even more.

Shouting 'ya fat/ginger/stupid bastard' in the street will likely lead to a warning, adding fenian to it will likely lead to a nicking straight off.

[TopGer]

The police can pretty much interpret anything as a breach of the peace, so singing a sectarian song alone will get you done

[RFCRussell]

the word Fenian isnt sectarian. The fenians were a political group equivalent to todays Sinn Fein. If you called a tim a Fenian they wouldnt find it offensive (if they knew what it meant) they would pretty much agree. The word Fenian means warrior.

[RFCRussell]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenian_Brotherhood

[RFCRussell]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenian

[TheLawMan]

What about singing Paddy McCourt fenian army.

Is that ok or is it just when we say it.

Yes, that is ok.

Singing "Davie Weirs Proddie army" is fine

Singing "To die a Proddie Bastard" is not fine.

[TheLawMan]

the word Fenian isnt sectarian. The fenians were a political group equivalent to todays Sinn Fein. If you called a tim a Fenian they wouldnt find it offensive (if they knew what it meant) they would pretty much agree. The word Fenian means warrior.

I respectfully disagree mate. This is akin to them claiming singing about the IRA is about the 1900 version who were soldiers when we all know fine well who they are celebrating and glorifying.

When our fans sing "We hate Celtic, Fenian Bastards" do you honestly believe we are calling them 19th century warriors ?

[boss]

What about singing Paddy McCourt fenian army.

Is that ok or is it just when we say it.

Legal advice from a QC is just that - a person can call themselves what they want, but a third party using that same term directed at them can be sectarian (or racist etc. depending on the word used).

That is the law, whether we like it or not. If you feel strongly enough about it, you will need to lobby for a change in the law.

This is a general point, not directed at you, Smile - just saying on a messageboard "that's not fair", or "if they can sing it so can I", does not change the legal position one iota.

That's where we are in 2011 Scotland I'm afraid.

[RFCRussell]

I respectfully disagree mate. This is akin to them claiming singing about the IRA is about the 1900 version who were soldiers when we all know fine well who they are celebrating and glorifying.

When our fans sing "We hate Celtic, Fenian Bastards" do you honestly believe we are calling them 19th century warriors ?

What do we mean when we say Fenian?

[TheLawMan]

What do we mean when we say Fenian?

Catholic.

[RFCRussell]

Catholic.

I thought we were meaning Irish Nationalist.

[TheLawMan]

I thought we were meaning Irish Nationalist.

When i was younger, then it was directed at Catholics. I have friends the now who still use it and its directed at Catholics. Im shocked that anyone who lives in Central Scotland would deny its directed at Catholics to be honest.

[boss]

When our fans sing "We hate Celtic, Fenian Bastards" do you honestly believe we are calling them 19th century warriors ?

I genuinely believe that some are using fenian in that sense. But many (perhaps most) have no idea about the history of the word and use it in its modern context.

As you know, the meaning of words can and does change over time. The meaning of fenian has changed in its legal interpretation. Some people don't like that, but that's where we're at.

[TheLawMan]

I genuinely believe that some are using fenian in that sense. But many (perhaps most) have no idea about the history of the word and use it in its modern context.

As you know, the meaning of words can and does change over time. The meaning of fenian has changed in its legal interpretation. Some people don't like that, but that's where we're at.

Spot on Boss

[caseyjones]

I respectfully disagree mate. This is akin to them claiming singing about the IRA is about the 1900 version who were soldiers when we all know fine well who they are celebrating and glorifying.

When our fans sing "We hate Celtic, Fenian Bastards" do you honestly believe we are calling them 19th century warriors ?

It's up to the prosecution to prove otherwise. Unfortunately, in the current climate, the stigma attached to such a charge will see most put in a guilty plea to keep it low key. The thought police win yet again.

[RFCRussell]

When i was younger, then it was directed at Catholics. I have friends the now who still use it and its directed at Catholics. Im shocked that anyone who lives in Central Scotland would deny its directed at Catholics to be honest.

I think we say Fenian because thats what they refer to themselves as Fenians. Its like us refering to ourselves as proddies but they say Proddie bastards.

[Smile]

Yes, that is ok.

Singing "Davie Weirs Proddie army" is fine

Singing "To die a Proddie Bastard" is not fine.

Look what i've hooked.

Summed up songs us = bad

songs them =good

[TheLawMan]

I think we say Fenian because thats what they refer to themselves as Fenians. Its like us refering to ourselves as proddies but they say Proddie bastards.

They have only started to refer to themselves as Fenians in the last few years though as far as im aware. We have referred to them as that for ages though.

[TheLawMan]

Look what i've hooked.

Summed up songs us = bad

songs them =good

hmmm - Im not sure how you worked that out.

"Proddie Bastard is NOT fine" ????

[MosesMcNeil]

Catholic.

I don't. I specifically mean a particularly bitter twat deserving of the insult.