Is this the way forward

[TheLawMan 6,240]

Why people seem to believe that administration would only be ten points deducted is beyond me. Would it not mean demotion to Division Three like Gretna and Livingston - or was this only because they were already in Division One?

SPL doesnt have a demotion. The rules have changed. Its also the case that if its done between certain dates in the close season, there could be no deduction at all.

Not that im saying for a minute that will happen by the way. Just pointing out the rules.

[Chesh 28]

SPL doesnt have a demotion. The rules have changed. Its also the case that if its done between certain dates in the close season, there could be no deduction at all.

Not that im saying for a minute that will happen by the way. Just pointing out the rules.

Thats me corrected.

[Spacecowboy 92]

Eh.........creditors do get paid first and not HMRC.

Thank Fuck you dont advise RFC!

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_00

"HMRC does not have preferential status in the distribution of the assets of an insolvent estate. The former Departments of Customs & Excise and Inland Revenue both lost preferential status on 15 September 2003 under the provisions of the Enterprise Act 2002."

Top of the chain is Secured Creditors

Then Fixed charge creditors

Then Floating charge creditors

Then preferential creditors(including other football clubs owed)

And HMRC are now below that level

I didnt say i did advise them

But if we lose the tax case it will be paying HMRC that then puts us into admin.

Then the bun fight starts for the rest.

HMRC taking the lions share of payments and assets and if the full amount cannot be settled then admin is the only way.

We cant just turn around and say "we in admin" when a big debt comes along.

[TheLawMan 6,240]

I did say id did advise them

But if we lose the tax case it will be paying HMRC that then puts us into admin.

Then the bun fight starts for the rest.

HMRC taking the lions share of payments and assets and if the full amount cannot be settled then admin is the only way.

We cant just turn around and say "we in admin" when a big debt comes along.

If, yes IF, thats IF we lost the case and say the bill was £40 million for talk sake and we couldnt afford to pay it, then HMRC would then apply for a winding-up order and if we were forced into administration, an appointed administrator would deal with our assets accordingly.

That would mean, as above, HMRC would be far down the food chain and would in all likelihood end up with ZERO.

Its not the case that we pay HMRC every penny of cash available then go into administration you know.

[Guardian 4,281]

So let me get this straight.

Some are saying Whyte may be planning to put us into administration of the tax case goes bad.

He has taken the Lloyds debt off to wavetower.

If we go bust there is little chance of him seeing that money back.

Seems a helluva lot of risk for no gain when he could've just waited and snapped it up with no risk at all.

[Spacecowboy 92]

If, yes IF, thats IF we lost the case and say the bill was £40 million for talk sake and we couldnt afford to pay it, then HMRC would then apply for a winding-up order and if we were forced into administration, an appointed administrator would deal with our assets accordingly.

That would mean, as above, HMRC would be far down the food chain and would in all likelihood end up with ZERO.

Its not the case that we pay HMRC every penny of cash available then go into administration you know.

how much do rangers now owe? and to who? who is this list of creditors you speak of?

HMRC with nothing? laughable!

spend millions taking us to court, win thier case and end up with nothing - I'm sure thats what'll happen!

If they thought they'd end up with nothing this would be wrapped up now.

[gunslinger 270]

So let me get this straight.

Some are saying Whyte may be planning to put us into administration of the tax case goes bad.

He has taken the Lloyds debt off to wavetower.

If we go bust there is little chance of him seeing that money back.

Seems a helluva lot of risk for no gain when he could've just waited and snapped it up with no risk at all.

the theory goes he would be a preferential creditior should we go into administration allowing him to take ibrox and murray park etc.

this theory isnt as wild as people are making out.

[gunslinger 270]

how much do rangers now owe? and to who? who is this list of creditors you speak of?

HMRC with nothing? laughable!

spend millions taking us to court, win thier case and end up with nothing - I'm sure thats what'll happen!

If they thought they'd end up with nothing this would be wrapped up now.

so lets say white has done as has been suggested set himself up as a creditor. could be a smart move. because theres nothing to benefit hmrc in giving us a large bill.

if they do they get nothing.

[BawdeepLoyal 94]

Eh.........creditors do get paid first and not HMRC.

Thank Fuck you dont advise RFC!

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_00

"HMRC does not have preferential status in the distribution of the assets of an insolvent estate. The former Departments of Customs & Excise and Inland Revenue both lost preferential status on 15 September 2003 under the provisions of the Enterprise Act 2002."

Top of the chain is Secured Creditors

Then Fixed charge creditors

Then Floating charge creditors

Then preferential creditors(including other football clubs owed)

And HMRC are now below that level

You detract and scaremonger on every thread.

I'd say its quite obvious you don't like Rangers very much.

If you are genuine its very unhappy life you must lead, seeing as we just won the league. I am smiling and you are moaning and decrying. How sad.

[TheLawMan 6,240]

how much do rangers now owe? and to who? who is this list of creditors you speak of?

HMRC with nothing? laughable!

spend millions taking us to court, win thier case and end up with nothing - I'm sure thats what'll happen!

If they thought they'd end up with nothing this would be wrapped up now.

Well, if as has been muted, Craig Whyte/Wavetower/Rangers Group ltd has become a secured creditor to the tune of 18 million then they will be the first to get their money out of the sale of all the assets.

Depending on how the Long term lease has been refinanced and secured, its possible that this will be next on the list which will be 4 million.

After that, there are trade creditors of about 2.5 million (perhaps more this year if we are paying up Jela's transfer fee as we normally do) so they will be third.

So the first 25 million or so will be untouchable as far as hmrc are concerned.

As others have stated Murray Park and Ibrox are only really sellable as the existing businesses so its sitting prime for someone to come in and offer 20-25 million to the administrator for the job lot and "acquire" the club and all its assets completely debt free and completely tax case free.

[Johnson 27]

the theory goes he would be a preferential creditior should we go into administration allowing him to take ibrox and murray park etc.

this theory isnt as wild as people are making out.

Lloyds were secured creditors, meaning they would get their £18m before anyone else in any administration.

Their debt was "assigned" to Wavetower (now Rangers FC Group), meaning that Whyte now has secured creditor status.

His £18m loan is safe, no matter what happens.

I don't know the situation with the £10m that was supposedly put into the company for cash-flow purposes.

Apart from that, all he's actually risked is £1.

Johnston, an independently rich man and "real Rangers fan" with a great job in the US, warned all Bears to be vigilant about Whyte and make sure he kept to his promises.

I don't know why so many fans are in a rush to dismiss his words.

Too much is at stake for us not to stay on our toes here.

[bluepeter 5,627]

You detract and scaremonger on every thread.

I'd say its quite obvious you don't like Rangers very much.

If you are genuine its very unhappy life you must lead, seeing as we just won the league. I am smiling and you are moaning and decrying. How sad.

I'm going to stick up for WeissMan here, I think that's incredibly harsh. He's not one for scaremongering, I'd say he's pretty good at laying out the facts. He's very careful to say IF (in fact he says it three times every time he says it) we lose the tax case. He has said often that he doesn't expect us to iirc.

Are you thinking of spangles?

[bluepeter 5,627]

Oh, and by the way, we're not going to lose the tax case

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

Just been talking with an extremely close family member who works for one of the big four accountancy/tax/business services companies and they have been looking at the current situation at Rangers and they have come up with a frightening scenario based on what they know and have been led to believe.

1. Craig White has not cleared the Rangers debt, he has bought it from Lloyds TSB, and Rangers now owe the money to him.

2. He is now Rangers's main creditor so in effect he could call in the "loan" at any time dependant upon the "deal" he has in place.

3. If the tax case goes pear shaped Rangers will be in a position to claim on their tax advisors who will have professional liability insurance, that is assuming Rangers took their advice and it is documented.

4. If Rangers lose the case and have no claim against their advisors for whatever reason, Rangers go into administration and take the 10 point penalty.

5. Rangers then pay off whatever they can to their creditors and whatever is left(next to nothing) goes to HMRC.

6. Rangers raise again as Glasgow Rangers or whatever, we are debt free and Craig White still owns us.

7. CW can then rebuild the stadium and playing staff etc. and sell us on for a profit.

I hasten to add this is all complete speculation of course

Thoughts?

i am sure the accountants on here will leap all over this BUT point 6 is wrong - if the club goes into administration its the administrators job to get the best for the creditors (ie the best deal they can) with the assets Rangers have I am sure CW will have a wee fight on his hands for those assets and he willl have to pay to get the assets - he may untimately win that but if this scenario comes to pass there would be a bun fiht over the assets - SW does not get them for free.

[gunslinger 270]

Lloyds were secured creditors, meaning they would get their £18m before anyone else in any administration.

Their debt was "assigned" to Wavetower (now Rangers FC Group), meaning that Whyte now has secured creditor status.

His £18m loan is safe, no matter what happens.

I don't know the situation with the £10m that was supposedly put into the company for cash-flow purposes.

Apart from that, all he's actually risked is £1.

Johnston, an independently rich man and "real Rangers fan" with a great job in the US, warned all Bears to be vigilant about Whyte and make sure he kept to his promises.

I don't know why so many fans are in a rush to dismiss his words.

Too much is at stake for us not to stay on our toes here.

i very much agree.

some people seem very bitter over johnston for some reason and other just dont like any kind of bad news. ostrich syndrome i expect.

[gunslinger 270]

i am sure the accountants on here will leap all over this BUT point 6 is wrong - if the club goes into administration its the administrators job to get the best for the creditors (ie the best deal they can) with the assets Rangers have I am sure CW will have a wee fight on his hands for those assets and he willl have to pay to get the assets - he may untimately win that but if this scenario comes to pass there would be a bun fiht over the assets - SW does not get them for free.

thats true but he will have 18 million to play with. ie the debt he is owed that can be written off.

[TheLawMan 6,240]

You detract and scaremonger on every thread.

I'd say its quite obvious you don't like Rangers very much.

If you are genuine its very unhappy life you must lead, seeing as we just won the league. I am smiling and you are moaning and decrying. How sad.

I would say that my LOVE of Rangers is what has me concerned about the current position. I dont think im scaremongering at all. I am merely pointing out how scenarios can pan out.

I have been quite clear as to say on MORE THAN ONE OCCASSION "IF, yes IF, thats IF"

[bluepeter 5,627]

i very much agree.

some people seem very bitter over johnston for some reason and other just dont like any kind of bad news. ostrich syndrome i expect.

Equally, some people don't seem to like good news and would rather spend their time worrying about what might happen in the worst case scenario. It must be a hell of a depressing way to spend their lives

[gunslinger 270]

Equally, some people don't seem to like good news and would rather spend their time worrying about what might happen in the worst case scenario. It must be a hell of a depressing way to spend their lives

sure but very few of thoose dismiss the good side as a fantasy and noone saying its going to be great is automatically labeled a tim.

[bluepeter 5,627]

sure but very few of thoose dismiss the good side as a fantasy and noone saying its going to be great is automatically labeled a tim.

There are a few on here who are very derisive toward any of us poor un-informed souls who are naive enough to think this may all work out for the good of Rangers. As for the tim accusations, I don't dish them out and never have. It's disappointing that accusations fly so readily, I tend to see it as a defence mechanism for those who are incapable of debating their opinion.

[TheLawMan 6,240]

i am sure the accountants on here will leap all over this BUT point 6 is wrong - if the club goes into administration its the administrators job to get the best for the creditors (ie the best deal they can) with the assets Rangers have I am sure CW will have a wee fight on his hands for those assets and he willl have to pay to get the assets - he may untimately win that but if this scenario comes to pass there would be a bun fiht over the assets - SW does not get them for free.

Said the same thing earlier on in the thread. It would be the administrators job to get the best money from whoever.

[gunslinger 270]

There are a few on here who are very derisive toward any of us poor un-informed souls who are naive enough to think this may all work out for the good of Rangers. As for the tim accusations, I don't dish them out and never have. It's disappointing that accusations fly so readily, I tend to see it as a defence mechanism for those who are incapable of debating their opinion.

yeah probably.

as ever the truth is probably somewhere in the middle of the argument.

an attitude of putting your fingers in your ears and saying everything will be fine for sure isnt ideal. but its perfectly possible things will be perfectly fine.

but we need to realise there is a senario that could leave us in trouble if only for a short while.

[TheLawMan 6,240]

There are a few on here who are very derisive toward any of us poor un-informed souls who are naive enough to think this may all work out for the good of Rangers. As for the tim accusations, I don't dish them out and never have. It's disappointing that accusations fly so readily, I tend to see it as a defence mechanism for those who are incapable of debating their opinion.

Spot on with your last sentence mate. "I havent a clue what you are talking about but it looks bad so you must be a tim ya bassa"

Cheers for your words above. I am only puting up what i consider to be the facts of the various @what if@ scenarios as you said.

[Spacecowboy 92]

so lets say white has done as has been suggested set himself up as a creditor. could be a smart move. because theres nothing to benefit hmrc in giving us a large bill.

if they do they get nothing.

wasnt it a tax loop hole that got us in this mess?

[gunslinger 270]

wasnt it a tax loop hole that got us in this mess?

yes but thats not a tax loop.