AJ requests that Insolvency Service investigates takeover

[bluepeter 5,627]

Hmmm

That was my initial thought as well Guardian. However I was reading (elsewhere) last night that during the AJ reign the board actually managed to reduce our overall debt whilst maintaining succcess on the park.

Can anyone confirm this ?

The debt was reduced, while we won three in a row. The footballing success can at least partially be attributed to Walter and the players, it was incredible what they achieved with little backing from the board.

The debt reduction was said to be the "fault" of Donald Muir ("the enemy within" ) and Lloyds, if I remember correctly. The board were said to be opposed to the financial restrictions placed on them.

[boss 1,941]

If you banned everyone with an irritating posting style from here...well none of us would be long of this world.....

Indeed - I'd have been banned years ago.

[GeneralCartmanLee 313]

I can't see how remonstrating about that is helpful at all, to be honest. He has bought the club. You, me or anyone else telling him he shouldn't have gets us nowhere.

Maybe we have to accept the days of an owner bankrolling a pipe dream of European success are gone? It would take more money than David Murray ever spent/borrowed for us to be truly successful in Europe (by that I mean CL success), that's just the way it is now. I believe we can be self-sufficient and still dominate Scottish football, allowing us access to (qualifiers for) Champions League, or Europa. Income from this would help our self-sufficiency. That has to be our aim now, with entry into the Champions League proper a target every season. Anything more than that is an unexpected bonus, imo.

I think you misunderstand my point.

This is not about spending ten million every summer, it's about funding the club over the course of a season and being able to get credit in an acceptable way when it is required.

Our only option isn't to just accept whyte if he is proven not to be suitable. We are a football team, fans can get rid of anyone (not that i am suggesting we are anywhere near that)

[caseyjones 3,009]

The only outcomes that are good for Whyte are also good for Rangers. I keep harping on about it, when people say he is here to asset strip us, or lead us into insolvency/administration, the obvious question is "what good does that do him?" I've yet to hear a decent answer to that question.

He appears to have been involved in quite a few businesses that have went to the wall.....obviously he has just been very unlucky, but at least he is still managing to keep his head above water.

I don't know the legal ins and outs of it all, but he moved funds from one failing company to another which resulted in his director ban, so is there no way that he could attempt this sort of thing again?

[bluepeter 5,627]

He appears to have been involved in quite a few businesses that have went to the wall.....obviously he has just been very unlucky, but at least he is still managing to keep his head above water.

I don't know the legal ins and outs of it all, but he moved funds from one failing company to another which resulted in his director ban, so is there no way that he could attempt this sort of thing again?

I don't think there's any money in Rangers for him to move, is there? His company paid off the £18m, he's (his company) since put in other money and underwritten the Ticketus loan. Any money he moves out of Rangers as it fails is his own, or his own debt. As far as I understand it.

[Edmiston Drive 3,846]

He appears to have been involved in quite a few businesses that have went to the wall.....obviously he has just been very unlucky, but at least he is still managing to keep his head above water.

I don't know the legal ins and outs of it all, but he moved funds from one failing company to another which resulted in his director ban, so is there no way that he could attempt this sort of thing again?

The last part would agree with, I mean Tommy Cooper only tried his tricks once even if they did not work.

[gunslinger 270]

I don't care what whytes up to I just want an end to the lies and to know what's going on.

that was my major hope when we were taken over.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

He appears to have been involved in quite a few businesses that have went to the wall.....obviously he has just been very unlucky, but at least he is still managing to keep his head above water.

I don't know the legal ins and outs of it all, but he moved funds from one failing company to another which resulted in his director ban, so is there no way that he could attempt this sort of thing again?

I think we have been kept in the dark for too long by those who have presided over our club going way way back.

Ita about time we were given some straight answers by all concerned.

[gunslinger 270]

I think we have been kept in the dark for too long by those who have presided over our club going way way back.

Ita about time we were given some straight answers by all concerned.

[bluepeter 5,627]

I think you misunderstand my point.

This is not about spending ten million every summer, it's about funding the club over the course of a season and being able to get credit in an acceptable way when it is required.

Our only option isn't to just accept whyte if he is proven not to be suitable. We are a football team, fans can get rid of anyone (not that i am suggesting we are anywhere near that)

I think, once the tax case is settled, normal lines of credit will be more available. The only reason he used Ticketus is because these credit lines are out of the question while we are facing the tax case. It's also possible that he has personal wealth which could be used to fund us over a season, he proved that to the board and Murray (long before the Ticketus interactions) that he had funding available. I don't remember precisely, but someone from the Rangers board (I think it was AJ) was quoted as saying he had provided proof of funding very early in the due diligence process. The Ticketus thing was in April or May last year, six months after the start of Whyte's bid.

[boss 1,941]

That was my initial thought as well Guardian. However I was reading (elsewhere) last night that during the AJ reign the board actually managed to reduce our overall debt whilst maintaining succcess on the park.

Can anyone confirm this ?

Lies by the old board. The facts were posted by me here a few days ago:

June 2007 - Net debt £16.5m

Sept 2007 - Paul Murray appointed

June 2008 - Net debt £21.5m

June 2009 - Net debt £31.1m

June 2010 - Net debt £27.1m

May 2011 - Paul Murray resigned

June 2011 - Net debt £32.1m*

So the net debt nearly doubled during the last four years - Paul Murray's directorship.

[Turnberry18 3,204]

In my opinion if Craig Whyte is to make this work, both for him and Rangers, then like all good venture capitalists he needs a good exit strategy. That would be a concern of mine; realising the addictive nature of football. It is an aspect that made Fergus McCann good for Celtic and vice versa. He needs to know where he is going with this, it is a risk-taking venture of a magnitude he apparently hasn't been involved in before, and he needs to know when he has arrived there. I see so much in what he is doing that don't point to administration, nor the weird claims of liquidation being made in some quarters, but I do see signs that Rangers is being lined up to be attractive for some or some people in the future.

[Guardian 4,281]

What if the straight answer is yes we are teetering on the brink and I'm hoping the stack of cash I've put together will be enough to cut a deal with HMRC and keep us going for a while.

a) The financial screws will be tightened even more.

b) HMRC can see our hand

c) They will want the lot

d) Our enemies will immediately start their remorseless digging into it.

Has anyone ever seen a military strategy that involved standing out in the open unarmed, passing out ammo to the enemy to fire back at you ?

[gunslinger 270]

Lies by the old board. The facts were posted by me here a few days ago:

June 2007 - Net debt £16.5m

Sept 2007 - Paul Murray appointed

June 2008 - Net debt £21.5m

June 2009 - Net debt £31.1m

June 2010 - Net debt £27.1m

May 2011 - Paul Murray resigned

June 2011 - Net debt £32.1m*

So the net debt nearly doubled during the last four years - Paul Murray's directorship.

he said the aj reign and those figures don't match with previous ones you have given.

you were predicting debt at 20 million at last year end iirc. figures of 47 million were mooted around the start of aj's reign.

of course Walter and Mr muir deserve a fair whack of credit for this.

[caseyjones 3,009]

I don't think there's any money in Rangers for him to move, is there?

I don't know, and I doubt anyone else does either. He has removed all the old guard, prevented the shareholders asking questions of him, sacked PLUS and banned any media organisations who dare to question his motives. In Whyte We Trust.

[GeneralCartmanLee 313]

I think, once the tax case is settled, normal lines of credit will be more available. The only reason he used Ticketus is because these credit lines are out of the question while we are facing the tax case. It's also possible that he has personal wealth which could be used to fund us over a season, he proved that to the board and Murray (long before the Ticketus interactions) that he had funding available. I don't remember precisely, but someone from the Rangers board (I think it was AJ) was quoted as saying he had provided proof of funding very early in the due diligence process. The Ticketus thing was in April or May last year, six months after the start of Whyte's bid.

I'm not sure about the credit but that is purely speculation and a gut feeling.

I'm also far from convinced about craig whytes personal wealth. He proved he had the funding available to satisfy Sir david but do we know the criteria ? This doesn't mean he has the funding to support our club.

AJ's main concern is his ability to provide ongoing funding for the club, one plenty of people share.

[gunslinger 270]

I don't know, and I doubt anyone else does either. He has removed all the old guard, prevented the shareholders asking questions of him, sacked PLUS and banned any media organisations who dare to question his motives. In Whyte We Trust.

a cynic might worry he's hiding something.

[Turnberry18 3,204]

What if the straight answer is yes we are teetering on the brink and I'm hoping the stack of cash I've put together will be enough to cut a deal with HMRC and keep us going for a while.

a) The financial screws will be tightened even more.

b) HMRC can see our hand

c) They will want the lot

d) Our enemies will immediately start their remorseless digging into it.

Has anyone ever seen a military strategy that involved standing out in the open unarmed, passing out ammo to the enemy to fire back at you ?

What occurs to me in all of this is the many red-herrings out there. I think only time will prove this to be the case; but I think some kind of phoney war is being fought on so many levels that I find it slightly intriguing.

[boss 1,941]

he said the aj reign and those figures don't match with previous ones you have given.

AJ was appointed Chairman in August 2009. As you will see from the table above, the net debt did not decrease during his tenure.

(Oh, I copied and pasted from my post of a few days ago - so the figures do indeed match!)

[bluepeter 5,627]

I don't know, and I doubt anyone else does either. He has removed all the old guard, prevented the shareholders asking questions of him, sacked PLUS and banned any media organisations who dare to question his motives. In Whyte We Trust.

I think it's abundantly clear that Rangers have no money which isn't underwritten by Whyte, isn't it?

[gunslinger 270]

AJ was appointed Chairman in August 2009. As you will see from the table above, the net debt did not decrease during his tenure.

(Oh, I copied and pasted from my post of a few days ago - so the figures do indeed match!)

I know the match what you said recently. I mean what you were saying in 2009 etc.

I also know if d muir was claiming he slashed costs and debt you could make a case for him.

2 years of you telling us lloyds were doing a good job only to find debts were rising.

[Turnberry18 3,204]

I think it's abundantly clear that Rangers have no money which isn't underwritten by Whyte, isn't it?

Well, to me anyway, that is the crucial point in the latest episode of this soap opera. Either it is being underwritten or Whyte could teach the stealth bomber some tricks about how to evade radar.

[gunslinger 270]

I think it's abundantly clear that Rangers have no money which isn't underwritten by Whyte, isn't it?

we have assets and perhaps cash. we had nearly 9 million at the end of the financial year.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Oh. it's all shaping up so nicely now.

By the end of the next month I expect a live televised shootout between AJ and the old board on one side, against Whyte and his mob on the other which will then leave the club available for the fans to buy for a song.

It all makes sense now.

[Guardian 4,281]

a cynic might worry he's hiding something.

Would that not be good business practice in the circumstances ?