Rangers Crisis - The outsiders view

[Manc]

I'm a fan of a non-Old Firm SPL club and am baffled by many Rangers fans reactions on here to what has happened to the club.

Can I maybe trouble you for some answers?

I myself believe that over a decade of cheating should be punished and that a 10 point penalty in a season when it didn't even cost you a place is not enough.

Most people in Scotland agree with this.

Question 1:

What do you think is an appropriate punishment for the old club?

The old club has been liquidated as they could not even come close to paying any of its creditors.

Question 2:

Do you see the difference between Rangers and the Greene consortium? And do you agree that Rangers must be consigned to history in order to allow the new club to exist and flourish?

Question 3:

Why are you hellbent with a fixation on boycotting other clubs or "taking them down with us"?

Question 4:

Would you agree that it would be unethical to allow the Greene consortium's club debt-free into the SPL to compete against debt-ridden but law-abiding football clubs?

Question 5:

If the old Rangers were found guilty of tax evasion and clandestine dual contracts, do you think the old club should be striped of titles? And if not, why not?

I'm sure all Scottish football fans would like to hear your responses, as in all honesty, it feels like the majority of Rangers fans are very angry and have great ill-feeling towards other clubs when it seems that the only people to blame for this are directors of Rangers FC?

[ger50champ]

I'm a fan of a non-Old Firm SPL club and am baffled by many Rangers fans reactions on here to what has happened to the club.

Can I maybe trouble you for some answers?

I myself believe that over a decade of cheating should be punished and that a 10 point penalty in a season when it didn't even cost you a place is not enough.

Most people in Scotland agree with this.

Question 1:

What do you think is an appropriate punishment for the old club?

The old club has been liquidated as they could not even come close to paying any of its creditors.

Question 2:

Do you see the difference between Rangers and the Greene consortium? And do you agree that Rangers must be consigned to history in order to allow the new club to exist and flourish?

Question 3:

Why are you hellbent with a fixation on boycotting other clubs or "taking them down with us"?

Question 4:

Would you agree that it would be unethical to allow the Greene consortium's club debt-free into the SPL to compete against debt-ridden but law-abiding football clubs?

Question 5:

If the old Rangers were found guilty of tax evasion and clandestine dual contracts, do you think the old club should be striped of titles? And if not, why not?

I'm sure all Scottish football fans would like to hear your responses, as in all honesty, it feels like the majority of Rangers fans are very angry and have great ill-feeling towards other clubs when it seems that the only people to blame for this are directors of Rangers FC?

Your thoughts and opinions on here are not welcome .Go fuck yourself you jacobite fuck pig.

[Senna]

I'm a fan of a non-Old Firm SPL club and am baffled by many Rangers fans reactions on here to what has happened to the club.

Can I maybe trouble you for some answers?

I myself believe that over a decade of cheating should be punished and that a 10 point penalty in a season when it didn't even cost you a place is not enough.

Most people in Scotland agree with this.

Question 1:

What do you think is an appropriate punishment for the old club?

The old club has been liquidated as they could not even come close to paying any of its creditors.

Question 2:

Do you see the difference between Rangers and the Greene consortium? And do you agree that Rangers must be consigned to history in order to allow the new club to exist and flourish?

Question 3:

Why are you hellbent with a fixation on boycotting other clubs or "taking them down with us"?

Question 4:

Would you agree that it would be unethical to allow the Greene consortium's club debt-free into the SPL to compete against debt-ridden but law-abiding football clubs?

Question 5:

If the old Rangers were found guilty of tax evasion and clandestine dual contracts, do you think the old club should be striped of titles? And if not, why not?

I'm sure all Scottish football fans would like to hear your responses, as in all honesty, it feels like the majority of Rangers fans are very angry and have great ill-feeling towards other clubs when it seems that the only people to blame for this are directors of Rangers FC?

1 - A decade of cheating? So we've been found guilty then? I must have missed the EBT and dual contract investigation verdicts then. Until then, the only punishment deserved is the 10pt administration penalty. The fact that it didn't cost us a place is down to the shite level of the other clubs in the SPL, but we'll be to blame for that.

There is no old club, it was Rangers then, it's Rangers now, founded in 1872 and scudding your diddy teams since.

2 - No, and no.

3 - You kick us when we're down, yet want to receive the handouts form Sky that only our participation can bring? Fuck you, biting the hand that feeds you doesn't work and you need us, whether you admit it or not.

4 - It probably would be, hence why an overwhelming majority of RFC fans seem to prefer D3 than getting back into the SPL.

5 - No. That is a company issue, not a club issue. Had we bribed referees or deliberately injured opposition players, then perhaps. (we were also being investigated about tax avoidance, not tax evasion.)

Now fuck off and worry about surviving financially without us.

[Moraybluenose]

I'm a fan of a non-Old Firm SPL club and am baffled by many Rangers fans reactions on here to what has happened to the club.

Can I maybe trouble you for some answers?

I myself believe that over a decade of cheating should be punished and that a 10 point penalty in a season when it didn't even cost you a place is not enough.

Most people in Scotland agree with this.

Question 1:

What do you think is an appropriate punishment for the old club?

The old club has been liquidated as they could not even come close to paying any of its creditors.

Question 2:

Do you see the difference between Rangers and the Greene consortium? And do you agree that Rangers must be consigned to history in order to allow the new club to exist and flourish?

Question 3:

Why are you hellbent with a fixation on boycotting other clubs or "taking them down with us"?

Question 4:

Would you agree that it would be unethical to allow the Greene consortium's club debt-free into the SPL to compete against debt-ridden but law-abiding football clubs?

Question 5:

If the old Rangers were found guilty of tax evasion and clandestine dual contracts, do you think the old club should be striped of titles? And if not, why not?

I'm sure all Scottish football fans would like to hear your responses, as in all honesty, it feels like the majority of Rangers fans are very angry and have great ill-feeling towards other clubs when it seems that the only people to blame for this are directors of Rangers FC?

Firstly Manc from Manchester (aye right), we have been penalised in many more ways than a 10 point deduction! The media hype surrounding the period before administration cost us the league, the 10 point penalty ensured there was no way back for a team who had been seriously undermined by our owner.

[Manno]

1. I think we have already suffered enough. 10 points deducted which killed our title hope. £200,000 and £160,000 fines from the SFA. Transfer embargo. No European football for three years (at least). Denied entry to the SPL. I have no problems (maybe the transfer embargo) with those sanctions, but anything further will be seriously kicking the club when we are down. The fact that things got so bad that we had to be liquidated is punishment enough in my opinion.

2. I have no idea what differences there were, other than so-called Rangers-men appearing at the 11th hour again, only to come up short despite their personal wealth. Charles Green has come in at a time when things are too bad and unlikley to get much better. The company which formed in 1899 died, not the club which formed in 1872.

3. The way I personally see it, is that the SFA/SPL would be happy to have a newco Rangers in the SPL due to the financial rewards - SKY TV, higher attendances. The clubs would want us 'punished' despite their being no precedent (what happened to Motherwell and Dundee? I was young at the time and only remember players leaving). I don't want Scottish football to die, but the realisation is that they will suffer rather than prosper without Rangers.

4. I do agree, the final punishment should be the denial of entry into the SPL and having to apply for SFL entry. Any further points deductions wouldn't be fair in my eyes.

5. No. Titles are won over 38 games. We are talking post 2001, so that would mean the titles won in 2003, 2005, 2009, 2010 and 2011 would be taken from us. You can't take away the last minute goal from McDonald and pretend it didn't happen. You can't take away Celtic bottling it at Easter Road in 2009 and then up at Inverness last May. If they are taken away, they should be deemed void and not handed to Celtic, and in the cases whereby we won the Scottish or League Cups, they too should be deemed void. Unfortunately, I'm sure our rivals would bask in the glory of yet another hollow victory.

[Blue Forever]

I'm a fan of a non-Old Firm SPL club and am baffled by many Rangers fans reactions on here to what has happened to the club.

Can I maybe trouble you for some answers?

I myself believe that over a decade of cheating should be punished and that a 10 point penalty in a season when it didn't even cost you a place is not enough.

Most people in Scotland agree with this.

Question 1:

What do you think is an appropriate punishment for the old club?

The old club has been liquidated as they could not even come close to paying any of its creditors.

Question 2:

Do you see the difference between Rangers and the Greene consortium? And do you agree that Rangers must be consigned to history in order to allow the new club to exist and flourish?

Question 3:

Why are you hellbent with a fixation on boycotting other clubs or "taking them down with us"?

Question 4:

Would you agree that it would be unethical to allow the Greene consortium's club debt-free into the SPL to compete against debt-ridden but law-abiding football clubs?

Question 5:

If the old Rangers were found guilty of tax evasion and clandestine dual contracts, do you think the old club should be striped of titles? And if not, why not?

I'm sure all Scottish football fans would like to hear your responses, as in all honesty, it feels like the majority of Rangers fans are very angry and have great ill-feeling towards other clubs when it seems that the only people to blame for this are directors of Rangers FC?

1. The 10-point penalty, the months in Administration, the prospect of all of our senior players leaving us, having to put up with vultures like the club you support trying to orchestrate the crippling of Rangers whilst keeping us around so you don't go out of existence due to lack of TV money.

2. Pish. The law is clear that the club is separate from the company.

3. Because, as stated previously, you seek to hamstring us to the point of being unable to compete but ensuring we are still around in some capacity to protect your TV income.

4. No. Rangers Football Club have broken no laws.

5. No. You said yourself that the people to blame are the directors of Rangers FC. Also, if we are stripping titles, we should also have all ticket money spent at SPL grounds returned to us on account of the fact that we participating under false pretences. Additionally, if we spent outwith our means, consider the amount of that money which went to SPL clubs in transfer fees. For instance, the money paid to Kilmarnock for Steven Naismith kept them afloat for years.

Some questions from me - why do SPL clubs hide behind 'sporting integrity' when it is really hatred and jealousy which is driving their actions? Why do SPL clubs object to Rangers starting from Div 3? Do you support the self-harm philosophy that SPL fans are taking with regards to the Rangers situation? Finally, what club do you actually support?

[Manc]

Your thoughts and opinions on here are not welcome .Go fuck yourself you jacobite fuck pig.

Okay, cool man. I posted on here to get some Rangers fans opinions. I've noted yours.

[julescotia]

You spelt your name wrong you illiterate prick.

I'll think you'll find it's spelt .... Mhank.

Now Fuck Off!

[Ricky_]

The only rule we have broke has been going into administration. We got the 10 point penalty.

Also, for the above i hate to use the term "we". The reason for going into admin was because a fraduster/scam artist illegally baught the club. Ask yourself this, how would you react if Craig Whyte came into your boardroom with forged "proof of funding" documents, promising to pay off your debt, but in actual fact he never put in a penny of his own money, doubled the debt, and charged the employees PAYE & NI and didnt pass it on to the tax man?

Anyone would be outraged if this happened to their club and it never should have been allowed to happen.

As for the so called cheating, EBT's were never illegal, it was simply the tax paid on them is being contested. It made no difference to RFC, because the tax saved was pocketed by the player. So we paid out what we could afford to pay out (or borrow). There is actually an arguement to be made for HMRC goign after each individual board member, agent & player who recieved EBT payments for the tax. Nobody is happy about the use of this scheme, but to say it's cheating is pathetic. The players won our trophies on the pitch. To say they were only here because they saved a few quid on tax is guess work at best.

[Carsons Dog]

Okay, cool man. I posted on here to get some Rangers fans opinions. I've noted yours.

Portsmouth

[Marco Negri's Beard]

We already had this from a goader, earlier today was it?

Jesus, the wind up merchants are in such full swing that they have ran out of material. Lazy, simply lazy

My favourite line was the one about 'Rangers fans being angry and having great ill-feeling towards other clubs' - I assume the irony isn't missed by many considering how lovely the rest of the Scottish clubs are and how their feelings towards Rangers are, of course, fuelled by the need for sporting integrity over any kind of vindictivness or petty anger.

Well done mate.

[Basilbolio]

Away to fuck Declan. Your daddy is spanking your sister asshole while you jerk off

[Marco Negri's Beard]

Hi all fellow sevcos...signed up few days ago, hope you are all well..been reading on here for a while....WHIT A FECKIN LAUGH...i truly thank you for the pleasure that you have given me and will miss the excellent banter you serve up......

WE DONT DO WALKING AWAY...THATS GOT TO BE THE BEST ONE I'VE HEARD.....

You cant even see the irony of her majesty bring down this whole rotten to the core institution. As you, her loyal subjects dip her pockets. Also you parade brave service men and women round the big tesco who do not have the right equipment to go to war because of cheats who do not pay their taxes to the crown....i.e. sevco f.c.

It has taken a while but GOOD HAS TRIUMPHED OVER EVIL... Thank you Elisabeth.

Forever yours...malky...

May god bless you...

You condoned child abuse. The trump card if ever i've heard one.

Admin will be with you soon - You're only here to see the Rangers

[greig]

Outsider my arse, get fucked.

[Blue Forever]

Hi all fellow sevcos...signed up few days ago, hope you are all well..been reading on here for a while....WHIT A FECKIN LAUGH...i truly thank you for the pleasure that you have given me and will miss the excellent banter you serve up......

WE DONT DO WALKING AWAY...THATS GOT TO BE THE BEST ONE I'VE HEARD.....

You cant even see the irony of her majesty bring down this whole rotten to the core institution. As you, her loyal subjects dip her pockets. Also you parade brave service men and women round the big tesco who do not have the right equipment to go to war because of cheats who do not pay their taxes to the crown....i.e. sevco f.c.

It has taken a while but GOOD HAS TRIUMPHED OVER EVIL... Thank you Elisabeth.

Forever yours...malky...

May god bless you...

Your spelling and grammar is typical of supporters of Pacific Shelf 595 FC. However, since you were typing standing up (being unable to sit because your arsehole has taken a battering) we'll let you off.

Also, 'rotten to the core'. OK, remember though, Big Jock Knew.

[StuartM6]

Fuck off.

/Thread.

[dummiesoot]

Hi all fellow sevcos...signed up few days ago, hope you are all well..been reading on here for a while....WHIT A FECKIN LAUGH...i truly thank you for the pleasure that you have given me and will miss the excellent banter you serve up......

WE DONT DO WALKING AWAY...THATS GOT TO BE THE BEST ONE I'VE HEARD.....

You cant even see the irony of her majesty bring down this whole rotten to the core institution. As you, her loyal subjects dip her pockets. Also you parade brave service men and women round the big tesco who do not have the right equipment to go to war because of cheats who do not pay their taxes to the crown....i.e. sevco f.c.

It has taken a while but GOOD HAS TRIUMPHED OVER EVIL... Thank you Elisabeth.

Forever yours...malky...

May god bless you...

Good over evil yup that kiddyfiddling really is a triumph well done go shag yer sister.

[Manc]

Firstly Manc from Manchester (aye right), we have been penalised in many more ways than a 10 point deduction! The media hype surrounding the period before administration cost us the league, the 10 point penalty ensured there was no way back for a team who had been seriously undermined by our owner.

I live and work in Manchester.

1. I think we have already suffered enough. 10 points deducted which killed our title hope. £200,000 and £160,000 fines from the SFA. Transfer embargo. No European football for three years (at least). Denied entry to the SPL. I have no problems (maybe the transfer embargo) with those sanctions, but anything further will be seriously kicking the club when we are down. The fact that things got so bad that we had to be liquidated is punishment enough in my opinion.

My only response to this would be: Fines mean nothing to you, they wouldnt be paid and do you think suffering one year of missing out on challenging for the title is fair punishment for more than ten years of denying other clubs the opportunity of playing for the title and cups you won (as well as prize money) for more than ten?

2. I have no idea what differences there were, other than so-called Rangers-men appearing at the 11th hour again, only to come up short despite their personal wealth. Charles Green has come in at a time when things are too bad and unlikley to get much better. The company which formed in 1899 died, not the club which formed in 1872.

Is it fair to say then, that the club won the titles and should be allowed to do so as a separate entity to those paying for the players that club woouldn't ordinarily be able to afford?

3. The way I personally see it, is that the SFA/SPL would be happy to have a newco Rangers in the SPL due to the financial rewards - SKY TV, higher attendances. The clubs would want us 'punished' despite their being no precedent (what happened to Motherwell and Dundee? I was young at the time and only remember players leaving). I don't want Scottish football to die, but the realisation is that they will suffer rather than prosper without Rangers.

Rangers are a unique case as far as I'm aware. None of Dundee, Livingston, Leeds or Motherwell were ever liquidated. Their CVAs were accepted

4. I do agree, the final punishment should be the denial of entry into the SPL and having to apply for SFL entry. Any further points deductions wouldn't be fair in my eyes.

Is entry into the first division acceptable in your eyes?

5. No. Titles are won over 38 games. We are talking post 2001, so that would mean the titles won in 2003, 2005, 2009, 2010 and 2011 would be taken from us. You can't take away the last minute goal from McDonald and pretend it didn't happen. You can't take away Celtic bottling it at Easter Road in 2009 and then up at Inverness last May. If they are taken away, they should be deemed void and not handed to Celtic, and in the cases whereby we won the Scottish or League Cups, they too should be deemed void. Unfortunately, I'm sure our rivals would bask in the glory of yet another hollow victory.

Not being a Celtic fan, I couldn't say whether they would want those titles. That is not the question, is it fair that RANGERS should keep them even if they were won dishonestly?

1. The 10-point penalty, the months in Administration, the prospect of all of our senior players leaving us, having to put up with vultures like the club you support trying to orchestrate the crippling of Rangers whilst keeping us around so you don't go out of existence due to lack of TV money.

You could never have afforded those players that are leaving

2. Pish. The law is clear that the club is separate from the company.

3. Because, as stated previously, you seek to hamstring us to the point of being unable to compete but ensuring we are still around in some capacity to protect your TV income.

4. No. Rangers Football Club have broken no laws.

Let's see if the investigations are ever completed before saying you are guilty of anything else, but we can certainly say you broke the law by not paying any tax this year.

About £12 million I think has been quoted probably the rest of the SPL bar Celtic's transfer fees for about the past 7-8 years?

5. No. You said yourself that the people to blame are the directors of Rangers FC. Also, if we are stripping titles, we should also have all ticket money spent at SPL grounds returned to us on account of the fact that we participating under false pretences. Additionally, if we spent outwith our means, consider the amount of that money which went to SPL clubs in transfer fees. For instance, the money paid to Kilmarnock for Steven Naismith kept them afloat for years.

Some questions from me - why do SPL clubs hide behind 'sporting integrity' when it is really hatred and jealousy which is driving their actions? Why do SPL clubs object to Rangers starting from Div 3? Do you support the self-harm philosophy that SPL fans are taking with regards to the Rangers situation? Finally, what club do you actually support?

My personal views are that you cannot seperate a club from its directors completely. The club and the fans celebrated titles won because of directors actions.

Secondly, there is certainly a question of sporting integrity being compromised for more than a decade that needs to be answered. I'd be surprised that you can't see that. Non-OF clubs have missed out on millions in prize monies over the years playing against players Rangers could not afford. I don't think anyone is hding behind it or punishing Rangers purely out of hatred? Not found guilty yet sure, but in all probability, it looks like I spent my entire teenage years watching a league that was rigged in Rangers favour. Can you not see that?

I wil certainy tel you who I support, but first I would like to know why it is important?

[AmarriedAfineYin]

[WeeBlue]

Never understood why people join forums for teams they don't support. Or how people can find the courage to post essays before learning to spell.

[Senna]

My personal views are that you cannot seperate a club from its directors completely. The club and the fans celebrated titles won because of directors actions.

Fine, then Celtic FC should have been prosecuted for being an accomplice in covering up child abuse from past events and disbarred from ever playing football again.

Same with Hearts/Romanov for unethical financial discrepancies.

etc etc.

[AGM_72]

Question 1:

The old company has been liquidated. Keep up, mate.

I think many fans are actually quite open to the prospect of Division 3. Weren't Livingston relegated to Division 3 for forming a new company? There are various other examples around Europe where clubs have been relegated due to this circumstance occurring and I would see it as fitting.

Question 2:

No, and neither does FIFA/UEFA. Refer to the records of Leeds United and Fiorentina, both of which exist with full history in FIFA/UEFA's books, who have both suffered financial troubles that resulted in new companies needing to be formed to take control of the football club after the old companies were liquidated. It seems the SFA doesn't either, with suggestion we will have to take the old companies punishments. Something I am OK with, as it is the same football club.

Question 3:

Personally, I'm not into the bluster of boycotting and "taking them down with us" at this point. What I care about is Rangers Football Club, first and foremost. The club will be the recipient of my money and until such times as the mess and farce surrounding the club is dealt with, I will maybe then take a look at those who have mistreated us or jumped on the kick Rangers bandwagon and so on. I don't think the whole world is against us, but I believe there are those who have been far to eager to stick the boot it.

However, while now is not the time for this in my view, it surely can't be hard to see why some Rangers fans believe now is the time for such action? We have been kicked from pillar to post for months on end, yet we have yet to see, besides being forced into administration by a complete shyster (Whyte), any definitive legal answer on supposed financial wrong doings during the "EBT era" and there seems to be a developing culture of "guilty before proven innocent" in Scottish Football, which is wholly wrong. If we are legally found to have done wrong, then punishment must follow.

Question 4:

Again as above, allowing for the Craig Whyte farce (which is now a criminal investigation), we've yet to be proven to have done wrong. While I would accept punishment if/when we are found guilty, until we are we should not be judged on the potential "illegal" activities. Of course I would hasten to add that EBT's were declared in our accounts while they being used, which of course the SFA are required to examine.

In respect of the newco it's self being allowed into the SPL proven to be free of illegal activities, I've already answered in part 1 my thoughts on that.

Question 5:

I think, personally, I could see why there might be a motivation to see titles stripped. Though I would tend to agree that the guilty party are the directors. Not the players and ex-players such as Jackie McNamara has even come out and said that the titles were won on the pitch fair and square.

It also opens up a can of worms, surely our co-efficient points earned during that period should be ripped from Scotland's co-efficient total in the interest of Sporting Integrity? Perhaps that might even lead to sanctions against the SFA and it competing in Europe? Particularly if we have been declaring EBT's in our accounts all this time, yet the SFA didn't challenge it and gained a benefit from a club supposedly gaining a benefit from this "illegal activity".

[Marco Negri's Beard]

So we had 'head in the sand' in another thread - who had 'sporting integrity' in the troll bingo?

[Moraybluenose]

I live and work in Manchester.

Not being a Celtic fan, I couldn't say whether they would want those titles. That is not the question, is it fair that RANGERS should keep them even if they were won dishonestly?

My personal views are that you cannot seperate a club from its directors completely. The club and the fans celebrated titles won because of directors actions.

Secondly, there is certainly a question of sporting integrity being compromised for more than a decade that needs to be answered. I'd be surprised that you can't see that. Non-OF clubs have missed out on millions in prize monies over the years playing against players Rangers could not afford. I don't think anyone is hding behind it or punishing Rangers purely out of hatred? Not found guilty yet sure, but in all probability, it looks like I spent my entire teenage years watching a league that was rigged in Rangers favour. Can you not see that?

I wil certainy tel you who I support, but first I would like to know why it is important?

If the SPL was rigged in our favour during the period of the EBT's, why were we not as successfull during this period as we were prior to it? Non OF clubs have not missed out, quite the opposite in fact, they have gained their share of the TV deals that were enhanced by our participation.

[Moraybluenose]

I do find this forum amazing tho, not one 'bears den?'