Murray's statement re EBTs

[TAFKA 545]

Murray shouldn't have let this carry on for as long as it did, but it's good that he seems to be putting a lot of the speculation to rest.

I reckon he's had a wee heads-up that, despite fannying about for ever, HMRC are going to have to fold.

Let's be honest - if their case stood up, why wait?

And one final point of controversy. As one of those around when a "big new signing" meant Joe "Mince" Mason or Cammy "Fucksake" Fraser, I loved NIAR, the big European nights (Leeds, Stuttgart, Porto, Wallace's goal against Dortmund etc), treble after treble and the Tims in complete disarray and abject despair. The 3-0 clincher where they lost the plot will live with me forever.

I think some of those who demonise Murray either can't or won't remember how shit we were (Martin Henderson? Andy Kennedy? Colin McAdam?) before he stepped up. A few years watching some of the crap I watched in the early eighties would soon change a few minds.

And we moan at the media for assuming we are guilty - yet so many on here want to crucify Murray on the same premature basis.

[ianbear007 15]

It's certainly interesting that someone who has seen all the evidence to the tax tribunal, from both sides, would come out with such a bullish defence of Rangers tax payments....a defence we were told was pointless as Rangers are 100% guilty

arsenal football club ran ebt's for years.

i believe they stopped in 2004 and settled with hmrc at the time.

there was never any question of the gunners being in the slightest bit of bother with the f.a. for running the schemes.

our tax scheme scenario has been blown out of all proportion by lewell and lemon at pacific shellic aided and abeted by the mhedia

[Quiet Jim 897]

arsenal football cluub ran ebt's for years.i believe they stopped in 2004 and settled with hmrc at the time.

there was never any question of the gunners being in the slightest bit of trouble with the f.a. for running the schemes.

our tax scheme scenario has been blown out of all proportion by pacific shellic aided and abetted by the mhedia

It was a LOAN!

The future is bright, the futures orange, I tell you!

[JCDBigBear 10,989]

Our problem with the SPL isn't that we used EBTs, it's because they think we had players on dual contracts. We maintain that the EBTs were loans from a benefit trust and did not form part of their contract.

Although RFC paid money into the trust fund, as far as I can understand, it wasn't RFC who paid out the loans to the players. The loans were paid out by The Rangers Employee Benefit Trust (REBT) which I believe will not be run by RFC but by independent trustees. In effect, such payments were from a different source. For confirmation that the REBT has no fiscal attachment to RFC, that trust's financial dealings are not mentioned anywhere in RFC accounts. If it was part of the RFC group it should be included. The only mention in the ten years the EBT scheme was in operation is that RFC paid money into the scheme.

What else should be considered is that our annual accounts were provided to both the SFA and SPL. They should have questioned this at the outset if they thought there was a problem. That they didn't do so is negligence on their part.

[TheBluebells 6,898]

"I hope that those presently in charge of Rangers show sufficient resolve when it comes to resisting this move, despite the incentives being offered to do otherwise."

More evidence of corruption coming up perhaps?

[ianbear007 15]

Our problem with the SPL isn't that we used EBTs, it's because they think we had players on dual contracts. We maintain that the EBTs were loans from a benefit trust and did not form part of their contract.

Although RFC paid money into the trust fund, as far as I can understand, it wasn't RFC who paid out the loans to the players. The loans were paid out by The Rangers Employee Benefit Trust (REBT) which I believe will not be run by RFC but by independent trustees. In effect, such payments were from a different source. For confirmation that the REBT has no fiscal attachment to RFC, that trust's financial dealings are not mentioned anywhere in RFC accounts. If it was part of the RFC group it should be included. The only mention in the ten years the EBT scheme was in operation is that RFC paid money into the scheme.

What else should be considered is that our annual accounts were provided to both the SFA and SPL. They should have questioned this at the outset if they thought there was a problem. That they didn't do so is negligence on their part.

the point i am making is that arsenal f.c ran the schemes for years in much the same way as rangers did.the gunners did not have any problem with the f.a..i believe a precedent was set in the case of arsenal.the spl will have to take account of this when it comes to deciding what sanctions -if any-to impose on rangers football club

[Quiet Jim 897]

Our problem with the SPL isn't that we used EBTs, it's because they think we had players on dual contracts. We maintain that the EBTs were loans from a benefit trust and did not form part of their contract.

Although RFC paid money into the trust fund, as far as I can understand, it wasn't RFC who paid out the loans to the players. The loans were paid out by The Rangers Employee Benefit Trust (REBT) which I believe will not be run by RFC but by independent trustees. In effect, such payments were from a different source. For confirmation that the REBT has no fiscal attachment to RFC, that trust's financial dealings are not mentioned anywhere in RFC accounts. If it was part of the RFC group it should be included. The only mention in the ten years the EBT scheme was in operation is that RFC paid money into the scheme.

What else should be considered is that our annual accounts were provided to both the SFA and SPL. They should have questioned this at the outset if they thought there was a problem. That they didn't do so is negligence on their part.

Show me the Contracts!

Show me the Loans!

If all else fails, for fuck sake, at least show me the deeds!

[JCDBigBear 10,989]

the point i am making is that arsenal f.c ran the schemes for years in much the same way as rangers did.the gunners did not have any problem with the f.a..i believe a precedent was set in the case of arsenal.the spl will have to take account of this when it comes to deciding what sanctions -if any-to impose on rangers football club

I doubt they ran it exactly the same way as I believe Arsenal reached a settlement with HMRC some years later. Perhaps they declared their "EBT" scheme to the FA and EPL as being contractual and therefore not an EBT but part of salary.

[54andcounting 627]

I reckon he's had a wee heads-up that, despite fannying about for ever, HMRC are going to have to fold.

Let's be honest - if their case stood up, why wait?

And one final point of controversy. As one of those around when a "big new signing" meant Joe "Mince" Mason or Cammy "Fucksake" Fraser, I loved NIAR, the big European nights (Leeds, Stuttgart, Porto, Wallace's goal against Dortmund etc), treble after treble and the Tims in complete disarray and abject despair. The 3-0 clincher where they lost the plot will live with me forever.

I think some of those who demonise Murray either can't or won't remember how shit we were (Martin Henderson? Andy Kennedy? Colin McAdam?) before he stepped up. A few years watching some of the crap I watched in the early eighties would soon change a few minds.

And we moan at the media for assuming we are guilty - yet so many on here want to crucify Murray on the same premature basis.

I was around then and every time I see ibrox! I remember that it was Him that gave us it, but I will not forgive him for letting that wee shit white getting us!!!

[ianbear007 15]

I doubt they ran it exactly the same way as I believe Arsenal reached a settlement with HMRC some years later. Perhaps they declared their "EBT" scheme to the FA and EPL as being contractual and therefore not an EBT but part of salary.

arsenal ran the schemes in the same way as rangers did.there may have been minor detail differences.

you are correct the gunners did settle with hmrc.

however crucially the f.a did not take any action i.e sporting sanctions against the gunners for running the schemes.

there was never any question of this

[King Jela 21,689]

This better not be another kick in the balls.

Stand up for us Murray

Stand up for us ?

He can't even stand up for him............ah, never mind. Too easy.

[JCDBigBear 10,989]

arsenal ran the schemes in the same way as rangers did.there may have been minor detail differences.

you are correct the gunners did settle with hmrc.

however crucially the f.a did not take any action i.e sporting sanctions against the gunners for running the schemes

If Arsenal settled with HMRC and they ran their scheme the same as RFC then we would not be awaiting the result of the FTTT as that would probably have created precedent. The lack of any sanctions by the FA or EPL may be helpful to us but that depends on what their rules are. We don't have sufficient information about the Arsenal case, just speculation.

The main point of my original post was that I believe the EBT loan payments to the players came from the REBT and not RFC.

[Thermopylae 15,288]

If I was green I'd hire private investigators to dig for as much dirt on the other clubs and the men at the top of the other clubs as possible because I'm sure there is plenty

[Quiet Jim 897]

If I was green I'd hire private investigators to dig for as much dirt on the other clubs and the men at the top of the other clubs as possible because I'm sure there is plenty

Plain and simple, if we go down, the full Murray Empire goes down.

MIH implemented the same scheme with the same lawyers.

It was a loan!

If incorrectly implemented, thousands of jobs will go.

The Rangers Football Club followed legal advice and EBT’s were never contractual.

MIH defended the case between HMRC V The Rangers Football Club.

However, we never shagged weans, milord.

Justice is all we seek, but vengeance we will demand!

[Thermopylae 15,288]

Not sure I get this it was a loan but it's never to be paid back?

[Bear78 96]

To be fair, ray, based on what the alternatives were, it was the lesser of the evils & at least he got it delayed to 1st Sept. Not ideal. But that's why he's CEO & you or I aren't. He had to make a tough decision & you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Remember reading in a thread that Green refused to accept a few more punishments. Was that bull?

[Quiet Jim 897]

Not sure I get this it was a loan but it's never to be paid back?

It was a loan, but there was no debt collectors to enforce the loan when / if it was payable.

Totally legal.

I will give you £100, pay me back sometime, whenever it suits you.

Player, skint at the moment, pay you back later.

Try and enforce this loan in a British court of law.

Show me the dual contract that stipulates player x gets y amount per year with a loan of z amount, that is discretionary!

FeniansTakeItUpTheBum law firm insist they have a prima faciae case against Rangers.

Unfortunately the dirty smelly, thieving, tinky, peados bastards still think they are in the republic.

In a BRITISH court of law, we will rip them a new arsehole and send them home

[Gregor Stevens Fan Club 42]

It was a loan, but there was no debt collectors to enforce the loan when / if it was payable.

You keep on saying this, along with what Murray stated today/yesterday.

However, the few players that have came forward to mention their EBTs have never considered it as a loan. In fact, you could argue that they were insinuating that the payments were contractual.

I am talking about Dodds, Boumsong and Wattereus here.

[Bear78 96]

I reckon he's had a wee heads-up that, despite fannying about for ever, HMRC are going to have to fold.

Let's be honest - if their case stood up, why wait?

And one final point of controversy. As one of those around when a "big new signing" meant Joe "Mince" Mason or Cammy "Fucksake" Fraser, I loved NIAR, the big European nights (Leeds, Stuttgart, Porto, Wallace's goal against Dortmund etc), treble after treble and the Tims in complete disarray and abject despair. The 3-0 clincher where they lost the plot will live with me forever.

I think some of those who demonise Murray either can't or won't remember how shit we were (Martin Henderson? Andy Kennedy? Colin McAdam?) before he stepped up. A few years watching some of the crap I watched in the early eighties would soon change a few minds.

And we moan at the media for assuming we are guilty - yet so many on here want to crucify Murray on the same premature basis.

Loved it all too m8, but regardless of motive or ambition, no one can treat Rangers like I do a credit card, put the club into such a state where a bank takes control, and we end up in the hands of whyte, and what has since happened and expect much sympathy from supporters

forget this ebt bull do you not remember all the spending, 3 teams and many expensive tits. We could have spent a lot less and been just as successful.

[Bear78 96]

Our problem with the SPL isn't that we used EBTs, it's because they think we had players on dual contracts. We maintain that the EBTs were loans from a benefit trust and did not form part of their contract.

Although RFC paid money into the trust fund, as far as I can understand, it wasn't RFC who paid out the loans to the players. The loans were paid out by The Rangers Employee Benefit Trust (REBT) which I believe will not be run by RFC but by independent trustees. In effect, such payments were from a different source. For confirmation that the REBT has no fiscal attachment to RFC, that trust's financial dealings are not mentioned anywhere in RFC accounts. If it was part of the RFC group it should be included. The only mention in the ten years the EBT scheme was in operation is that RFC paid money into the scheme.

What else should be considered is that our annual accounts were provided to both the SFA and SPL. They should have questioned this at the outset if they thought there was a problem. That they didn't do so is negligence on their part.

Good point m8, sounds like the club has acted within the law in all of this and its all about suspicions rather than anything that could be considered evidence. I mean with both cases

[ianbear007 15]

If Arsenal settled with HMRC and they ran their scheme the same as RFC then we would not be awaiting the result of the FTTT as that would probably have created precedent. The lack of any sanctions by the FA or EPL may be helpful to us but that depends on what their rules are. We don't have sufficient information about the Arsenal case, just speculation.

The main point of my original post was that I believe the EBT loan payments to the players came from the REBT and not RFC.

there was never any f.a. case against arsenal at any time.neither was there any hmrc case against them.the gunners settled with hmrc before it got to the tribunal stage.

in a nutshell-arsenal fc ran ebt'ts for years-the f.a. and hmrc did not apply any sanctions or threaten any sanctions against them

how can the spl mob possibly justify hitting rangers football club with the worst possible sanction in the book when for the same "offence"and i use that term very loosely -absolutely nothing happened to arsenal football club.

i rest my case!

[Quiet Jim 897]

You keep on saying this, along with what Murray stated today/yesterday.

However, the few players that have came forward to mention their EBTs have never considered it as a loan. In fact, you could argue that they were insinuating that the payments were contractual.

I am talking about Dodds, Boumsong and Wattereus here.

Final non contractual payment, made via a loan.

No registration, no contract, loan(EBT) is irrelevant.

Show me the contract/loan/deeds.

[Saddam Ghandi 17]

Sounds to me like the Tax Case might be about to drop, Murray is coming out fighting, arse of a man who should never be forgiven.

Time to batten down the hatches, I've a feeling this is all about to get very real indeed.

[Quiet Jim 897]

Sounds to me like the Tax Case might be about to drop, Murray is coming out fighting, arse of a man who should never be forgiven.

Time to batten down the hatches, I've a feeling this is all about to get very real indeed.

If we lose this case MIH is royally fucked, it was second nature to them.

DM might be pleading the fifth, or is playing dumb.

If fenian.co.uk deliver a verdict before the judgment and are proven incompetent / bigoted, there will be ‘social unrest’.

However, EBT by definition is not a dual contract.

[MikeBlue 136]

Not sure I get this it was a loan but it's never to be paid back?

Clearly you don't have children