Why are we still singing about the UVF

[PRW. 5,631]

I agree, and I am not happy with the needless criminalizing of people, added to that the principle of free speech being eroded and its extremely illiberal and thats when you start going down a slippery slope. For me what happens in the ground should stay in the ground. Obviously if there were chants of kill the jews or kill all blacks or something along those lines then I'd have a problem with that.

The only people benefitting from this are the lawyers and the police. Bear in mind the police pushed hard for these measures to be put in place, and no politician (especially with an election looming, as was the case) is going to come out and oppose what the police want to do, it wouldnt go down well with the public or indeed the media. However, our streets are no safer than they were before these measures were put in place and criminalizing even more people is only going to cause resentment and anger and where can that lead? Who knows. The authorities should be careful what they wish for.

Bang on with this.

Couldn't agree more.

[The Dude 20,026]

to be fair . . . singing about munich should be banned

maybe so, but do Man U fans have any special right to protection from being offended? Is it okay to offend in one way but not another? Isn't that blocking the same free speech someone else was crowing on about?

[MosesMcNeil 1,664]

Heres one to try out. Walk into a public place and tell every stranger that you see 'I hate niggers' or maybe tell them 'I hate muslims and want to wade in their blood' lets see how freedom of speech goes then.

Keep doffing your cap to any passing law maker. They'll appreciate the surrender.

Freedom of speech can be dangerous I know - it's still a value worth protecting. Even if we get offended from time to time.

But, denying it to stop songs at football is an absurdity and smacks of purest snobbery over any recognition of the dangers it presents.

[PRW. 5,631]

change the word then

i don't sing it myself, i also don't complain when others do but how hard is it to change one word, would changing it be so hard?

Yes.

[ForeverBlue_Since91 2,895]

change the word then

i don't sing it myself, i also don't complain when others do but how hard is it to change one word, would changing it be so hard?

Why? Just because some want you to? They call themselves this so don't let this kind of shite kid you.

[legalbeagle 3,734]

change the word then

i don't sing it myself, i also don't complain when others do but how hard is it to change one word, would changing it be so hard?

The problem is, that despite all of the crap in this thread about atmosphere, a sizeable number of those who want it back only want that word. The same as the people who took the atmospheric build-up of Simply the Best away from us before the games.

[The Dude 20,026]

And what's your point? You think it's good that people can be arrested for saying words?

No, my point is free speech only goes so far.

People could get arrested for saying words long before SAlmond and his silly wee offensive behaviour at football bill.

[Prince of Orange 84]

I'm happy to join this gang of 3 and I'm sure there must be more bears out there who want to sing about our team and forget about wars or any history of Ireland/Britain not relating to our game

Before you go forgetting wars take a little time to remember these men.

Rangers players, past or present, who served with distinction during the Great Wars included:

Dr. James Paterson - Captain - 14th Battalion - London Regiment - London Scottish

Andy Cunningham - 2nd Lieutenant - Gunner - Royal Field Artillery

Jimmy Gordon - Sergeant - Highland Light Infantry

Willie Reid - Gunner - Royal Field Artillery - 52nd Lowland Division

Fred Gray - 2nd Lieutenant - 9th Battalion -Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)

James H. Speirs - 2nd Lieutenant - 7th Battalion - Cameron Highlanders - 15th Scottish Division

Jimmy Galt - 2nd Lieutenant - Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders

John Fleming - Corporal - 8th Battalion - Cameron Highlanders

John Clarke - Rifleman - 16th Battalion - Royal Irish Rifles (36th Ulster Division)

Tommy Muirhead - 2nd Lieutenant - 1st/2nd Battalion - King's Own Scottish Borderers -

Willie Thornton - Scottish Horse Regiment

David B. Murray - Private - 8th Battalion - Seaforth Highlanders - 15th Scottish Division

Tom Gilchrist - 1st/2nd Battalion - Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders

Finlay Speedie - Private - Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders

Scott Duncan - Signalling Instructor - Royal Field Artillery

Jimmy Low - 2nd Lieutenant - 6th Battalion - Seaforth Highlanders

Tom McDonald - Royal Horse Artillery

John McKeown Bovill - Rifleman - Royal Irish Rifles

Dr. William F. Kivlichan - Lieutenant - Royal Army Medical Corps - attached King's Own African Rifles

Alex Bennett - Cameronians - Scottish Rifles

John Bertram Jackson - Royal Scots Fusiliers

George Turner Livingstone - Royal Army Medical Corps

David Taylor - Royal Field Artillery

Walter Daniel Tull - 2nd Lieutenant - 5th Battalion - Middlesex Regiment

John Rankin - Royal Army Medical Corps

R. Smith - Mechanic - Royal Flying Corps

Sandy Archibald was stationed at the Curragh Camp, Co. Kildare.

Tom Sinclair, James Young, David Brown and Jock Buchanan all served in the British Army - the latter two rising to the rank of Sergeant - although their regiments are unknown.

George Dickson, Jimmy Lister and John McCulloch also served in the Armed Forces during the Great War.

Servicemen who were decorated include:

Jock Buchanan was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal

Finlay Speedie and James Speirs the Military Medal

Dr. James Paterson and Fred Gray the Military Cross

and Walter Tull the British War and Victory Medal and the Military Cross

For any who are interested the story of Walter Tull is exceptional and he was certainly an exceptional human being, an amazing man who overcame many prejudices because of the colour of his skin and started wholesale changes in the way the British Army viewed coloured men at the time as the Army viewed 'coloured men of any rank as undesirable' and actual military regulations that stopped "any negro or person of colour" from becoming an officer. Yet Walter Tull was promoted to Sergeant and went on to become the first coloured combat officer in the British Army. A man I am extremely proud to call a Ranger.

[The Dude 20,026]

Why? Just because some want you to? They call themselves this so don't let this kind of shite kid you.

again, Black people call themselves 'niggers'. Try walk up to a black guy in the street and call him a n***er.

[The Dude 20,026]

Before you go forgetting wars take a little time to remember these men.

Rangers players, past or present, who served with distinction during the Great War included:

Dr. James Paterson - Captain - 14th Battalion - London Regiment - London Scottish

Andy Cunningham - 2nd Lieutenant - Gunner - Royal Field Artillery

Jimmy Gordon - Sergeant - Highland Light Infantry

Willie Reid - Gunner - Royal Field Artillery - 52nd Lowland Division

Fred Gray - 2nd Lieutenant - 9th Battalion -Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)

James H. Speirs - 2nd Lieutenant - 7th Battalion - Cameron Highlanders - 15th Scottish Division

Jimmy Galt - 2nd Lieutenant - Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders

John Fleming - Corporal - 8th Battalion - Cameron Highlanders

John Clarke - Rifleman - 16th Battalion - Royal Irish Rifles (36th Ulster Division)

Tommy Muirhead - 2nd Lieutenant - 1st/2nd Battalion - King's Own Scottish Borderers -

David B. Murray - Private - 8th Battalion - Seaforth Highlanders - 15th Scottish Division

Tom Gilchrist - 1st/2nd Battalion - Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders

Finlay Speedie - Private - Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders

Scott Duncan - Signalling Instructor - Royal Field Artillery

Jimmy Low - 2nd Lieutenant - 6th Battalion - Seaforth Highlanders

Tom McDonald - Royal Horse Artillery

John McKeown Bovill - Rifleman - Royal Irish Rifles

Dr. William F. Kivlichan - Lieutenant - Royal Army Medical Corps - attached King's Own African Rifles

Alex Bennett - Cameronians - Scottish Rifles

John Bertram Jackson - Royal Scots Fusiliers

George Turner Livingstone - Royal Army Medical Corps

David Taylor - Royal Field Artillery

Walter Daniel Tull - 2nd Lieutenant - 5th Battalion - Middlesex Regiment

John Rankin - Royal Army Medical Corps

R. Smith - Mechanic - Royal Flying Corps

Sandy Archibald was stationed at the Curragh Camp, Co. Kildare.

Tom Sinclair, James Young, David Brown and Jock Buchanan all served in the British Army - the latter two rising to the rank of Sergeant - although their regiments are unknown.

George Dickson, Jimmy Lister and John McCulloch also served in the Armed Forces during the Great War.

Servicemen who were decorated include:

Jock Buchanan was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal

Finlay Speedie and James Speirs the Military Medal

Dr. James Paterson and Fred Gray the Military Cross

and Walter Tull the British War and Victory Medal and the Military Cross

For any who are interested the story of Walter Tull is exceptional and he was certainly an exceptional human being, an amazing man who overcame many prejudices because of the colour of his skin and started wholesale changes in the way the British Army viewed coloured men at the time as the Army viewed 'coloured men of any rank as undesirable' and actual military regulations that stopped "any negro or person of colour" from becoming an officer. Yet Walter Tull was promoted to Sergeant and went on to become the first coloured combat officer in the British Army. A man I am extremely proud to call a Ranger.

Any of them serve in the UVF? Or are the regiments and division which actually have a bona fide link with the club not good enough?

[paisleyroad 894]

Why? Just because some want you to? They call themselves this so don't let this kind of shite kid you.

errrrrr No . . . . . because it can land you in the nick . . . . i don't want to see any Rangers fan in the nick to be honest.

again, i don't sing it, none of my mates sing it, i have no objection to anybody else singing it but they no the outcome . . . that is all.

[ForeverBlue_Since91 2,895]

again, Black people call themselves 'niggers'. Try walk up to a black guy in the street and call him a n***er.

I know and it's alot of shite. Why do the stupid cunts call themselves this then get offended when someone else call them it?

Are they just trying to cause trouble and be offended when it suits them?

[paisleyroad 894]

maybe so, but do Man U fans have any special right to protection from being offended? Is it okay to offend in one way but not another? Isn't that blocking the same free speech someone else was crowing on about?

did i say they did?

[Blue corn flakes 1,282]

A fuck it :crabflute:

[thegummy 4,472]

again, Black people call themselves 'niggers'. Try walk up to a black guy in the street and call him a n***er.

If he's bigger than you he'll probably punch you, if he's smaller he'll probably just walk away upset.

I wouldn't go up to any stranger and say something offensive.

Don't you see the big difference between confronting an individual with aggressive language and singing songs with thousands of others in your own section of a football ground?

It should not be illegal to say the N word (I personally choose to not use it). No one is saying that people don't deserve protection from a direct verbal assault on an individual.

[derek1872 548]

But nothing happens does it? They don't get threatened with fines and the song doesn't get banned.

Nonsense. Something does happen. Just as something happens if fans sing racist songs.

[The Dude 20,026]

Keep doffing your cap to any passing law maker. They'll appreciative the surrender.

Freedom of speech can be dangerous I know - it's still a value worth protecting. Even if we get offended from time to time.

But, denying it to stop songs at football is an absurdity and smacks of purest snobbery over any recognition of the dangers it presents.

Yes freedom of speech is a right which should be protected, I completely agree, however trying to apply freedom of speech as a logical reason to sing about fenians and the UVF is pathetic. Do you feel it is wrong that I can be arrested for walking up to a random black person and shouting 'fucking n***er' in his face? Or should that be ok as it erodes our right speech? Would you be quite happy for IRA protest marches to take place regularly and for them to have public rallies? Free Speech after all. Or that crazy islamist fella with the hook, his preaching of hatred was ok because he was only exercising his right to free speech regardless of the fact he proclaimed that wanted the indigineous population of the country he lived in dead.

[derek1872 548]

Thats not the point. It''s one rule for us and another for everyone else. It's the same with the Billy boys.

Killie fans & Hearts fans sing it. But you never here any one banning them from signing it.

Yes on rule for one and one for another. This whole its ok to sing UVF from some og our fans. The same fans would be outraged and disgusted if Celtic where singing pro IRA songs right?

[The Dude 20,026]

If he's bigger than you he'll probably punch you, if he's smaller he'll probably just walk away upset.

I wouldn't go up to any stranger and say something offensive.

Don't you see the big difference between confronting an individual with aggressive language and singing songs with thousands of others in your own section of a football ground?

It should not be illegal to say the N word (I personally choose to not use it). No one is saying that people don't deserve protection from a direct verbal assault on an individual.

but isn't that 'one rule for some, one for the rest'? The self same thing we piss and moan about going on here with the use of the word fenian?

[MisterC 12,263]

With freedom comes responsibility and that applies whether we are talking about freedom of speech, religion, freedom of protest or whatever.

[thegummy 4,472]

Yes freedom of speech is a right which should be protected, I completely agree, however trying to apply freedom of speech as a logical reason to sing about fenians and the UVF is pathetic. Do you feel it is wrong that I can be arrested for walking up to a random black person and shouting 'fucking n***er' in his face? Or should that be ok as it erodes our right speech? Would you be quite happy for IRA protest marches to take place regularly and for them to have public rallies? Free Speech after all. Or that crazy islamist fella with the hook, his preaching of hatred was ok because he was only exercising his right to free speech regardless of the fact he proclaimed that wanted the indigineous population of the country he lived in dead.

Do you think it's okay to go up to a guy of any race and shouting "you are a smelly bastard!" but not if you use certain other words?

It's the "going up to a random guy and shouting in his face" that's unacceptable. No word should be illegal to say.

[PRW. 5,631]

Yet again, these threads won't make a jot of a difference.

A minority of fans use forums, a minority on the forums disapprove of these songs. Shout, jump and stamp your feet all you like.

Won't make a difference, thankfully.

[MosesMcNeil 1,664]

How about leave the RFFF out of it, set up your own case and try and procure funding from parties who want to agree to do that, rather than the wider support, many of whom don't care.

I think when arrests are made, criminalising people for singing songs is something we should all care about.

And, let's not forget, this law was passed by the SNP - a parcel of rogues who see no hypocrisy in banning the Billy Boys but allowing Flower of Scotland to be played loud and proud at national events?

William Walls was jailed for singing the 'Famine' song with a certain Lord Carloway rejecting the appeal. The self same Lord Carloway who helped in the decision to enforce the transfer ban. A transfer ban the RFFF subsequently funded a QC to challenge in court and (successfully) have the ruling overturned.

Can you see where I'm going with this? When we fight we have a chance and even if we lose we are still heard. If we don't fight at all?

Well...

[The Dude 20,026]

Do you think it's okay to go up to a guy of any race and shouting "you are a smelly bastard!" but not if you use certain other words?

It's the "going up to a random guy and shouting in his face" that's unacceptable. No word should be illegal to say.

no, because its offensive. Its notthe word that is illegal to say. It is the context in which it is used. Fenian isn't a word that is verboten. When its sole purpose is to cause offence then it becomes illegal.

[thegummy 4,472]

I think when arrests are made, criminalising people for singing songs is something we should all care about.

And, let's not forget, this law was passed by the SNP - a parcel of rogues who see no hypocrisy in banning the Billy Boys but allowing Flower of Scotland to be played loud and proud at national events?

William Walls was jailed for singing the 'Famine' song with a certain Lord Carloway rejecting the appeal. The self same Lord Carloway who helped in the decision to enforce the transfer ban. A transfer ban the RFFF subsequently funded a QC to challenge in court and (successfully) have the ruling overturned.

Can you see where I'm going with this? When we fight we have a chance and even if we lose we are still heard. If we don't fight at all?

Well...