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Vanguard Bears - just who are they?


charlotte1008

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You could also give me an example of my outlandish and idiotic behaviour, in amongst all my courteous replies ;)

Vouching for me could possibly fall into either the "outlandish" or "idiotic" category, in some peoples eyes.

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That's a mile in the wrong direction.

Rangers were here first, before them, that's a fact

The majority of Scotland, and Britain, whether unionist, nationalist etc, and whether active or not, are Some form of Protestant, it's cos and Coe. Again, it's a fact. We're you. Christened? ;)

Another simple fact is, many people actually are firm believers, in the political and religious side of things, that's as well as being a rangers fan. You have and want your non religious beliefs, and are welcome to them, just as much as those who do are. The phrase a broad church is often used to describe our support, and, church is a fairly religious word. Most supporters of any team, will follow their team "religiously". It's inescapable.

Unfortunately, in Scotland these days, everything is tied to politics and religion, as someone else mentioned, our club would not be under the kind of attacks it is without that aspect, and, those attacking it want our club gone! They don't care that you, or others don't really care about religion, or that you are a fan of the snp (they aren't that smart). The "troubles" are being played out these days politically in Scotland, with football being used as the vehicle.

New laws? Created by people of a certain religious persuasion, to make it a crime to pick on them in any way they decided. They admitted this.

Rangers, even down to playing in red white and blue, are a target for the snp, either directly or by avoidance. Any other club in any other league would have been helped in our situation.

The thing with all this is, it may well not be your bag, but it is hurting the club, which means its hurting YOUR club. We try to stop it. Simple as that. Whether you believe politically or religiously is irrelevant, if you care for the club, you stand against it. Doesn't mean you have to become an uber prod/unionist does it?

So much wrong- or at least to disagree with in a short post.

Yes Iwas christened and baptised - but I had no say in the matter at that time - however I did go on to take communion at 16 (Like the good BB I was!) - but at that time I also believed in other unrealistic things as well (Like one day I would play for Rangers) BUT as I grew older I started to make decisions for myself rather than just do what was expected - I also came to realise that I would never play for Rangers and there was no god. Once there is no God, you stop going to the Kirk andyou stop calling yourself a Protestant - as to be one implies that belief in Kirk andGod!

We were started before them but many of our support (and many VB's) have said we only took on the Protestant mantle because they took or were wearing the Catholic mantle - so even many of the 'faithful' among the support admit we have allowed then to define us.

Yes people would like to attach their politics to Football - but given all the grief that is causing that just strengthens my belief that Football is better without politics - it is not only some of our fansI critisise for this but anyone who wants to politisise football. However the new laws that you are so up inarms against are the samenew laws that 'they' are up in arms against - and there are even some new laws that 'they' think are so bad the Catholic Churchare no longer speaking to the SNP or Scottish government. Hardly an example of religious bias.

Love the shallowness of the fact we play in Red White and Blue means that we MUST be unionists ergo the SNP must hate us - I give the majority of our support more credit than that and they will vote for the political party they see will do the best by them - and not make that desicion based on the color of a football strip!

I have NO issues with the VB defending our club - as I said earlier - we do not need to take political or religious stands to do so. Reflecting the OP speech, they have decided that to defend the club is tied to having to be Protestant, having to be Unionist - and that is nonsense! We can do that without having our politics or religion defined by others. There are people that hate our club (and there are people who are incompetent running our game) - these things need sorted BUT I do not have to start following a relgion I don't believe in nor take up politics I don't support to defend the club.

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You're doing your best to stir the shit but it ain't going to happen. Don't like the thread stay off it.

Ah the new mantra of the VB - "Please give us an easy time to post what we want without challenge of getting the piss taken" hidden behind "Don't like the thread stay out" campaign.

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So much wrong- or at least to disagree with in a short post.

Yes Iwas christened and baptised - but I had no say in the matter at that time - however I did go on to take communion at 16 (Like the good BB I was!) - but at that time I also believed in other unrealistic things as well (Like one day I would play for Rangers) BUT as I grew older I started to make decisions for myself rather than just do what was expected - I also came to realise that I would never play for Rangers and there was no god. Once there is no God, you stop going to the Kirk andyou stop calling yourself a Protestant - as to be one implies that belief in Kirk andGod!

We were started before them but many of our support (and many VB's) have said we only took on the Protestant mantle because they took or were wearing the Catholic mantle - so even many of the 'faithful' among the support admit we have allowed then to define us.

Yes people would like to attach their politics to Football - but given all the grief that is causing that just strengthens my belief that Football is better without politics - it is not only some of our fansI critisise for this but anyone who wants to politisise football. However the new laws that you are so up inarms against are the samenew laws that 'they' are up in arms against - and there are even some new laws that 'they' think are so bad the Catholic Churchare no longer speaking to the SNP or Scottish government. Hardly an example of religious bias.

Love the shallowness of the fact we play in Red White and Blue means that we MUST be unionists ergo the SNP must hate us - I give the majority of our support more credit than that and they will vote for the political party they see will do the best by them - and not make that desicion based on the color of a football strip!

I have NO issues with the VB defending our club - as I said earlier - we do not need to take political or religious stands to do so. Reflecting the OP speech, they have decided that to defend the club is tied to having to be Protestant, having to be Unionist - and that is nonsense! We can do that without having our politics or religion defined by others. There are people that hate our club (and there are people who are incompetent running our game) - these things need sorted BUT I do not have to start following a relgion I don't believe in nor take up politics I don't support to defend the club.

Much of what you say i disagree with. However there are parts i agree with.

However what i would like to know is what you have done to defend the club or the fans against the campaign that is being waged to close us down.

You might belittle and ridicule VB but in my opinion without our actions (and the actions of other groups) i actually think there wouldn't be a Rangers FC today. And if that sounds too far fetched for you then fine.

And a last point....the SNP are not and never will be friends of Rangers FC. Alex Salmond, Rosanne Cunningham and Nicola Sturgeon have done nothing to help us during our crisis. It was they who brought in the skewed legislation targeting Rangers fans. It was Sturgeon who stood idly by while a major business in her constituency was in serious trouble and did nothing to help. It was Cunningham who openly admitted in an Edinburgh Hotel that the new legislation was designed to protect catholics.

In the grand scheme of things supporting a football club should be about football and nothing else. However the point remains that you chose to support a club knowing full well what it's history was, what its traditions were, what its fanbase believed in.

In my eyes you have no right to try and change all that no matter how much you shout about "moving on"

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Much of what you say i disagree with. However there are parts i agree with.

However what i would like to know is what you have done to defend the club or the fans against the campaign that is being waged to close us down.

You might belittle and ridicule VB but in my opinion without our actions (and the actions of other groups) i actually think there wouldn't be a Rangers FC today. And if that sounds too far fetched for you then fine.

And a last point....the SNP are not and never will be friends of Rangers FC. Alex Salmond, Rosanne Cunningham and Nicola Sturgeon have done nothing to help us during our crisis. It was they who brought in the skewed legislation targeting Rangers fans. It was Sturgeon who stood idly by while a major business in her constituency was in serious trouble and did nothing to help. It was Cunningham who openly admitted in an Edinburgh Hotel that the new legislation was designed to protect catholics.

In the grand scheme of things supporting a football club should be about football and nothing else. However the point remains that you chose to support a club knowing full well what it's history was, what its traditions were, what its fanbase believed in.

In my eyes you have no right to try and change all that no matter how much you shout about "moving on"

Well I would have joined VB but they never return my emails !! :pipe:

But I participated in the RFFF - I have discussed the situation at length with my local MSP (on numerous occasions) and I have discussed the situation with two SFL 1 Chairmen (to make sure they know our views) - I also tell anyone who will listen how incompetent the SFA are!

Idisagree on the views that the new sectarian laws are bias if favour of Catholics (despite what Cunningham says) - in fact there seems to be plenty evidence that the new laws brought 'their' behaviour more into the spotlight - but we just will have to disagree about this piint I think.

On your last point - I do think Ihave the right to try to change anything I want - I may not succeed but I do have the right to try! And I choose to follow Rangers simply for their football, their provensporting ideals, the words of Struth resonate with me there is muchto be proud of in the History of the club and its not all tied to Religion or politics. Sportsmanship, pride, a will to win within the rules of the game, are all proven long term - supporting Rangers as a football team may seem simplistic to you but its enough for me.

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A few thought on this good discussion.

Rangers are a symbol of many different things, but to define it, ask your enemies. So how do the people who hate rangers, view what this club represents?

I think they would go down the line of; a Scottish west coast based club that is predominantly; Protestant, supporting the union with the rest of the UK, supporter of the Queen and Britishness. The enemies of Rangers will come from a spectrum of views but will fire out the most extreme one if they are attacking the club or what the club is a symbol of, in their eyes.

I would say that historically our enemies have pegged Ranger right; they are a symbol of a Protestant, Unionist and Scottish as well as British identity. So, when you wear that Rangers scarf, they see the colours and imbue you with the same values as the symbol it represents. To say I don’t buy into the Protestant, Unionist and British identity, does not matter, as the judgement on you has been made.

Now a bit of conspiracy theory here. If you are looking to attack a belief system the first thing you do is attack its symbols and paint them as unclean, as in morally repugnant. I do believe that that attacks on our club are both planned and opportunistic. Let me explain, lots of people have wanted an end to the sectarianism in Scotland so when one of the major symbols of it falls, then try and kill it so the other half will whither away. The opportunity arrived and half thought out plans were sharpened up. The ones who truly hate us have been dreaming of this for a long time and quickly galvanised themselves for action, with smear campaigns and via the media trying to demonise the symbol of the belief. It doesn’t need to be solely religious, such as Nationalism needs Unionism to fail.

Are the Vanguard Bears right in what they are doing?

I would say yes. The reasons I say this are, people have every right to defend Protestantism, Unionism and being part of the United Kingdoms of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. This is not against the law. The majority of Scots are Protestants even if they are none practicing ones, so the Vanguard Bears are voicing fears about a social change that may effect the majority of the population.

I am not a Vanguard Bear or have ever met one to my knowledge, but they are doing what every Rangers supporter in the seventies would have done with out moralising. They would have stood up for their own kind. Can they get fiery, yes, I guess you call it passion.

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I cant believe we are 16 pages on, its all about opinions, it very clear that some dont like or want to attach Religion or politics to Rangers football club however its very clear that the work that VB had done and continues to do for Rangers Football is acknowledged by all and mostly apriecated. I dont agree with some of the statements on here but I think my statement covers these points I support the football team I dont think about Religion or Politics when im cheering my team on but I respect others views regardless if I agree or not because at the end of the day does it really effect me when I watch the Bears, simple answer is NO. I do love the banner and that in my mind sums up VB lads to a tea, Hated but rated.

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Out of curiosity, is there a place in the VB for someone who isn't a Unionist, a Monarchist, and not interested in defending traditions such as the Orange Order?

Are there many on your forum that don't stand for these things?

The answer can be found in the badge.

I'd also find it strange that someone who isn't a Unionist, Monarchist, member of the OO, or likes to defend the traditions of their country would even consider joining a forum or group which does. What would be the point?

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Ridiculous statements like this dont exactly help VB.

And your ignorance of what we and other groups have done explains your comment. I never said we were solely responsible. The RFFF and RTIDNI made massive contributions. This is not meant to be condescending but the reason we get comments like yours is in my view down to simply not knowing what we do. The original post only gives you a fraction of what we do as we are not going to broadcast our dealings to all and sundry. And despite the arguments and snide comments on here and elsewhere we will still continue doing our best to defend Rangers and the fans from our many bheastly enemies.

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Read the replies, it was clearly answered on more than one occasion. Yes, they would. For the reasons given, it's not a public forum, there are rules and there are membership criteria. Shouldn't be a hard concept to understand?

It happens in all walks of life. If you don't meet criteria for membership you can't join. Hardly evil or dastardly :)

apart from knowing a VB member and hin vouching for you...what other criterea is there?

Last time i asked this, i was told by a member of VB that I wouldnt fit it anyway so dont bother trying to sign up.

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Read the replies, it was clearly answered on more than one occasion. Yes, they would. For the reasons given, it's not a public forum, there are rules and there are membership criteria. Shouldn't be a hard concept to understand?

It happens in all walks of life. If you don't meet criteria for membership you can't join. Hardly evil or dastardly :)

apart from knowing a VB member and hin vouching for you...what other criterea is there?

Last time i asked this, i was told by a member of VB that I wouldnt fit it anyway so dont bother trying to sign up.

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A good OP ruined by the same childish posters yet again.

where has this thread been ruined?

I have seen plenty healthy debate.....and apart from leeds bear calling TWB a bellend twice (totally unprovoked) there has been no abuse ir derailment.

The thread is about who VB are....so rightly questions are being asked.

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The answer can be found in the badge.

I'd also find it strange that someone who isn't a Unionist, Monarchist, member of the OO, or likes to defend the traditions of their country would even consider joining a forum or group which does. What would be the point?

I think people are under a misconception that I actually want to join - I definitely don't and I haven't once said I do.

The VB are a group I see more and more of these days, and no doubt they'll go further. I believe if an organisation isolates some Rangers fans, it can't really claim to defend the support.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there's another organisation the size of VB or bigger that would openly reject the best Bear in the world if they didn't fit the mould.

The OP was clearly to provoke discussion, so I added my thoughts/criticisms of the VB moving forward.

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And your ignorance of what we and other groups have done explains your comment. I never said we were solely responsible. The RFFF and RTIDNI made massive contributions. This is not meant to be condescending but the reason we get comments like yours is in my view down to simply not knowing what we do. The original post only gives you a fraction of what we do as we are not going to broadcast our dealings to all and sundry. And despite the arguments and snide comments on here and elsewhere we will still continue doing our best to defend Rangers and the fans from our many bheastly enemies.

I dont think you sound condescending, I agree, I dont really know what VB actually do. I think that's one of the main reasons why some people dislike the group, unless you're a member it's hard to see what VB contribute.

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The first few pages of this are filled with people trying to get a reaction from TWB rather than talk about a good OP.

Seems many would rather snipe at poster than debate on the topic which is a shame tbh.

There's a fair bit of decent discussion as the topic goes on.

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The real problem is that the very 'Traditions' that have been mentioned here are exactly what the enemies of our club use to attack us. Protestant = Bigot, Unionist = Racist Loyalist = Extremist in the eyes of our detractors. Rangers should be seen as a Scottish club welcoming all supporters regardless of race, creed or politics (VB being a faction within that support). The Founding Fathers weren't interested in what political or religious stance the club had it was about playing football. The other side are the ones that bought religion and politics into football with the separatist nature of their foundation. I'd rather Rangers be known as a club that is proud of its footballing heritage and its players, managers and staff past, present and future. A club that has no more criteria to be a fan than an attraction to a football team that maintains the highest standards both on and off the pitch.

There was a time when religion played a large part in everyday life for a majority of people but those days are long gone and whilst we need to respect the past we have to look to the future and move forward and define Rangers in the present. Let our detractors live in the past it will lead to their stagnation. I'm not religious (an agnostic not an atheist), my political opinions are my own particular mix (I share views with Boris Johnson and Billy Bragg!!) and my family have played their part in defending the UK from threats from outside and inside its borders but I choose to support Rangers for my own reasons and when I'm at matches I care not for your politics or religion other than that you share my belief in the team on the pitch and support those that represent our club.

I guess with what I've said I don't really fit the profile to be a VB but I don't really care what a faction thinks of me (I'm in the Groucho Marx school when it comes to membership by acclamation). I'll plough my own furrow and never be afraid to say I'm a Rangers fan or stand up against the lies told by others but I don't require the permission or thanks of others to do so. Whilst I applaud the positive efforts of the VBs to raise funds and defend, in their way, the club I find myself uneasy that there is such a reliance on an 'identity' that less and less of our support share and is increasingly irrelevant to the long term future of Rangers.

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I dont think you sound condescending, I agree, I dont really know what VB actually do. I think that's one of the main reasons why some people dislike the group, unless you're a member it's hard to see what VB contribute.

VB are a closed shop, so to speak. We go about the majority of our work privately and don't shout from the rooftops.

How do we contribute to our support?

I'll give you two short examples which have occurred in the last few months. Please note, this isn't a cheap gain of approval, far from it. Merely an example how we help out one another as members of the Rangers family. Both anecdotes I believe are unspoken of outside VB.

1. At the last 'Old Firm' game of the season, a Rangers fan was unfortunately charged and fined for his reaction to Celtic fans singing pro-IRA songs. Instead of allowing the man to pay his fine, the people of VB got in contact with the person, a non-member, and rallied round to pay his fine.

2. Whilst in the midst of financial difficulty, a VB member went out of her way to buy a season ticket for another member. Yes, a full ticket! The female in question had never met the person in question, and simply knew him as a username on a forum.

The above examples like I say are current, and the members of VB generosity extends much greater than that, I can assure you.

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The VB are a group I see more and more of these days, and no doubt they'll go further. I believe if an organisation isolates some Rangers fans, it can't really claim to defend the support.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there's another organisation the size of VB or bigger that would openly reject the best Bear in the world if they didn't fit the mould.

The OP was clearly to provoke discussion, so I added my thoughts/criticisms of the VB moving forward.

As far as I can gather the Vanguard Bears are a group of like minded individuals who share the same core beliefs. They recruit by invitation only, but that’s ok because not every club is open to everyone. Most clubs have some form of criteria that needs met. As far as I can see the Vanguard Bears have explicitly stated theirs and do not appear to have hidden agenda, indeed it is a very old agenda. Do I have a problem with them being part of our support? No, as this is the agenda that shaped Rangers and the club will be associated with it even if we did not want to, it is how our enemies want to see us. I do not think that the Vanguard Bears are some form of militant weirdo’s but they are reasserting the core beliefs that drove Rangers for years. Rangers have always been more that a club and this is the out working of that fact. I do not think they are in to isolating other Rangers fans but they are doing the work of fighting for Rangers in thier own way. We should question them and I think they will answer these questions.

It is all good.

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