Jump to content

Union Bears statement


dezrfc1

Recommended Posts

it doesn't matter what he was being arrested for - the mob have no say in that - the police arrest based on suspicion of wrong doing - the courts decide innocence or guilt!

If I was ever accused of something I would pray YOU were not on jury service that day! Come down from your ivory tower and get in the real world

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Replies 308
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Maybe they should arrest the members of our armed forces who play drums while on horseback. Police horses are trained to deal with crowd situations so banging a drum near them should not cause an issue. If it does I suggest that the training of the horses is substandard (much like the training of some of the police officers).

To much like common sense for Blue Peter...he's not a fan of the union bears or Rangers fans in general but a massive fan of the police.

If I was ever accused of something I would pray YOU were not on jury service that day! Come down from your ivory tower and get in the real world

He's got to be at the wind up surly? Just seen he's from the east of the country.... no wonder he's a walloper.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe they should arrest the members of our armed forces who play drums while on horseback. Police horses are trained to deal with crowd situations so banging a drum near them should not cause an issue. If it does I suggest that the training of the horses is substandard (much like the training of some of the police officers).

spot on !
Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately, there are still a number of questions that haven't been answered by either side of this argument.

The only arrest that I can see specified was the drummer... is there a story around banners/songs/chants, etc, with any of the other arrests, or attempted arrests?

There are many things that seem to be inappropriate from the police: baton charges and locking the doors sound rather mad unless it was kicking off royally. It is also important to remember that fans are also customers, paying good money to enjoy the spectacle, and I know from many years of being stopped and searched that being a football fan seems to see you treated as sub-human.

But with all that being said, the UB statements seem very carefully worded (understandably given that people have been arrested), and don't convince that there wasn't some inappropriate behaviour going on. The way it is, you can't try to block the police from arresting someone and expect them to be fine with that.

defo two sides of the story and hopefully more footage will come out to show what really happenned and if there was an over reaction. Locking doors or containment/keytling is just a crowd control tactic

Link to post
Share on other sites

I back the UB 100% but trying to interfere when a police is making an arrest is daft and a certain way to get yourself lifted. Trying to get bans overturned would be pointless as it would never happen.

Hopefully the club will see that there is issues to be looked at here, hopefully there is some kind of meeting between the club, UBs and the police and this gets sorted out.

But the "Ultra" mentality of saying fuck the police etc will get us nowhere. If someone is getting arrested then the polis has made his decision and, like a player arguing with the referee, interfering will get you nowhere other than the cell beside your mate.

Link to post
Share on other sites

So trying to prevent someone from being lifted for nothing is a crime? When did banging a drum become an arrestable offence?

If the police re trying to arrest someone then it is an offence to hinder them, no matter what you think about the rights and wrongs of the arrest. The place to argue about the rights and wrongs of the arrest is in a courtroom, civilly with your defence lawyer cross examining the police, not mob handed during a charged situation.

You cannot defend people when the police are trying to do their job and arrest people....IT IS A CRIMINAL OFFENCE!

I am glad complaints have been put in but the UBs need to realise that they are not above the law. They should have let the arrest happen, noted it and passed on their names to the guy arrested so they could be called as defence witnesses in the guy's trial. THAT is how you fight against these things, I should know, I happen to challenge the police when they overstep the mark!

Link to post
Share on other sites

we agree - the fans should not stop the police doing there job - perceived injustice or not! let the cops arrest the alleged perpetrator and let the courts decide guilt. Mob rule where innocent or guilt is decided by a mob is not on!

Why are you so damned to support the police? What was he being arrested for? do you know?

Did you know that in 1939 Great Britain joined a war because of injustice's against people ?

Did you know that men and women fight today on foreign soild because of injustice's?

Did you know that men and women have campaigned in this great nation of ours for years to get a better way of life for all ?

Maybe we should all just stand back and let governments / police do whatever the hell they want because we as a people have no voice?

Maybe you can answer this one question?

What on god's earth could of that one person been doing that needed so many officers? police horses ? riot vans etc?

ffs it was Rangers v Annan , it wasn't fucking Isreal v Palestine ...

And see this fucking horse , years ago i remember queuing for Cappielow and a friggin horse bucked whilst we queued and a guy got hit in the face by its foot. Was the horse arrested? was it? no, the guy (with blood coming down his face) was told to get out the fucking way by the kindly officer.

ffs we live in a democracy , not under a fucking dictatorship.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I back the UB 100% but trying to interfere when a police is making an arrest is daft and a certain way to get yourself lifted. Trying to get bans overturned would be pointless as it would never happen.

Hopefully the club will see that there is issues to be looked at here, hopefully there is some kind of meeting between the club, UBs and the police and this gets sorted out.

But the "Ultra" mentality of saying fuck the police etc will get us nowhere. If someone is getting arrested then the polis has made his decision and, like a player arguing with the referee, interfering will get you nowhere other than the cell beside your mate.

Do the players then get charged by horses ? Do the players get hit by batons ? Do the players get horsed into the back of police vans? no?

It is our god given right as subjects of HM Queen Elizabeth II to dispute authority, it's what or maybe that should be what did make this tiny tiny nation of ours so Great.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If the police re trying to arrest someone then it is an offence to hinder them, no matter what you think about the rights and wrongs of the arrest. The place to argue about the rights and wrongs of the arrest is in a courtroom, civilly with your defence lawyer cross examining the police, not mob handed during a charged situation.

You cannot defend people when the police are trying to do their job and arrest people....IT IS A CRIMINAL OFFENCE!

I am glad complaints have been put in but the UBs need to realise that they are not above the law. They should have let the arrest happen, noted it and passed on their names to the guy arrested so they could be called as defence witnesses in the guy's trial. THAT is how you fight against these things, I should know, I happen to challenge the police when they overstep the mark!

Who do you work for then? I have been dealing with the people you say you work for, for the past year.

Just wanting to know if you are talking shit or even if you know your job.

Because, believe me, it is 100% lawful to use reasonable force to stop and unlawful arrest.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If the police re trying to arrest someone then it is an offence to hinder them, no matter what you think about the rights and wrongs of the arrest. The place to argue about the rights and wrongs of the arrest is in a courtroom, civilly with your defence lawyer cross examining the police, not mob handed during a charged situation.

You cannot defend people when the police are trying to do their job and arrest people....IT IS A CRIMINAL OFFENCE!

I am glad complaints have been put in but the UBs need to realise that they are not above the law. They should have let the arrest happen, noted it and passed on their names to the guy arrested so they could be called as defence witnesses in the guy's trial. THAT is how you fight against these things, I should know, I happen to challenge the police when they overstep the mark!

No offence to you BNB,but very apt for this thread "and that is why we all know the law is an ass"!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Who do you work for then? I have been dealing with the people you say you work for, for the past year.

Just wanting to know if you are talking shit or even if you know your job.

Because, believe me, it is 100% lawful to use reasonable force to stop and unlawful arrest.

I am someone who has seen many people charged with obstructing, molesting or hindering the police in carrying out their duty. I am also aware that police get cross examined on occasions where they have not followed the rules for example they have not afforded an accused with a caution.

I am also au fait with the legislation. and in terms of section 41 of the Police (Scotland) Act 1967 as amended there is no statutory defence in terms of what you suggest. maybe you can direct us to the relevant statute, statutory instrument or case that supports your argument.

For the avoidance of doubt, since police powers of arrest and the requisite offences of obstruction etc seem to confuse some here, I will provide the LAW on these points.

Section 41 Police (Scotland) Act as amended, Please note S41 (1) (b) as proof that the UB cannot defend a person from being arrested!

41Assaults on constables, etc.

(1)

Any person who—

(a)

assaults, resists, obstructs, molests or hinders a constable in the execution of his duty or a person assisting a constable in the execution of his duty, or

(b)

rescues or attempts to rescue, or assists or attempts to assist the escape of, any person in custody,

shall be guilty of an offence and on summary conviction shall be liable—

(i)

where he has not, within the period of two years immediately preceding the commission of the said offence, been convicted of an offence against this section, to a fine not exceeding [F142level 4 on the standard scale] or to imprisonment for a period not exceeding three months or to both such fine and such imprisonment;

(ii)

where he has, within the first-mentioned period, been convicted of an offence against this section, to imprisonment for a period not exceeding nine months [F143or to a fine not exceeding the prescribed sum within the meaning of [F144section 225(8) of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995], or to both.]

(2)

The reference in subsection (1) of this section to a person in custody shall be construed as a reference to a person—

(a)

who is in the lawful custody of a constable or any person assisting a constable in the execution of his duty, or

(b)

who is in the act of eluding or escaping from such custody, whether or not he has actually been arrested.

[

F145(3)

This section also applies to a constable who is a member of a police force maintained in England and Wales or in Northern Ireland when he is executing a warrant or otherwise acting in Scotland by virtue of any enactment conferring powers on him in Scotland.]

[

F146(4)

In this section references to a person assisting a constable in the execution of his duty include references to any person who is neither a constable nor in the company of a constable but who—

(a)

is a member of an international joint investigation team that is led by a constable of a police force or by a member of the National Criminal Intelligence Service or of the National Crime Squad; and

(b)

is carrying out his functions as a member of that team.

(5)

In this section “international joint investigation team” means any investigation team formed in accordance with—

(a)

any framework decision on joint investigation teams adopted under Article 34 of the Treaty on European Union;

(b)

the Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters between the Member States of the European Union, and the Protocol to that Convention, established in accordance with that Article of that Treaty; or

©

any international agreement to which the United Kingdom is a party and which is specified for the purposes of this section in an order made by the Secretary of State with the consent of the Scottish Ministers.

(6)

A statutory instrument containing an order under subsection (5) shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.

Section 13 Criminal Law Procedure (Scotland) Act Police powers relating to those they suspect of committing an offence

13

Powers relating to suspects and potential witnesses.

(1)

Where a constable has reasonable grounds for suspecting that a person has committed or is committing an offence at any place, he may require—

(a)

that person, if the constable finds him at that place or at any place where the constable is entitled to be, to give[F1the information mentioned in subsection (1A) below]F1 and may ask him for an explanation of the circumstances which have given rise to the constable’s suspicion;

(b)

any other person whom the constable finds at that place or at any place where the constable is entitled to be and who the constable believes has information relating to the offence, to give [F2the information mentioned in subsection (1A) below]F2 .

[

F3(1A)

That information is—

(a)

the person's name;

(b)

the person's address;

©

the person's date of birth;

(d)

the person's place of birth (in such detail as the constable considers necessary or expedient for the purpose of establishing the person's identity); and

(e)

the person's nationality.]

F3(2)

The constable may require the person mentioned in paragraph (a) of subsection (1) above to remain with him while he (either or both)—

(a)

subject to subsection (3) below, verifies any [F4information mentioned in subsection (1A) above]F4 given by the person;

(b)

notes any explanation proffered by the person.

(3)

The constable shall exercise his power under paragraph (a) of subsection (2) above only where it appears to him that such verification can be obtained quickly.

(4)

A constable may use reasonable force to ensure that the person mentioned in paragraph (a) of subsection (1) above remains with him.

(5)

A constable shall inform a person, when making a requirement of that person under—

(a)

paragraph (a) of subsection (1) above, of his suspicion and of the general nature of the offence which he suspects that the person has committed or is committing;

(b)

paragraph (b) of subsection (1) above, of his suspicion, of the general nature of the offence which he suspects has been or is being committed and that the reason for the requirement is that he believes the person has information relating to the offence;

©

subsection (2) above, why the person is being required to remain with him;

(d)

either of the said subsections, that failure to comply with the requirement may constitute an offence.

(6)

A person mentioned in—

(a)

paragraph (a) of subsection (1) above who having been required—

(i)

under that subsection to give [F5the information mentioned in subsection (1A) above]F5 ; or

(ii)

under subsection (2) above to remain with a constable,

fails, without reasonable excuse, to do so, shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale;

(b)

paragraph (b) of the said subsection (1) who having been required under that subsection to give [F6the information mentioned in subsection (1A) above]F6 fails, without reasonable excuse, to do so shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale.

(7)

A constable may arrest without warrant any person who he has reasonable grounds for suspecting has committed an offence under subsection (6) above.

That is the law as it stands at present and I am looking forward to someone telling me where the defence of being allowed to obstruct and resist arrest where you believe the arrest is wrongful actually is.

Link to post
Share on other sites

No offence to you BNB,but very apt for this thread "and that is why we all know the law is an ass"!

In many cases the law is an ass, but we have to live with it while trying to reform it in a constructive manner and there are far better ways of doing it that what the UB do.

Link to post
Share on other sites

UB like all football supporters are subjected to ridiculous oppression from the polis............filmed, corralled. frog marched..................enough is enough

ǝpɐbıɹq uǝǝɹb ǝɥʇ get the same and made a stand against it

just grow a set of balls (even if you're a burd) and start standing up for football supporters everywhere

as for the polis do no wrong crap...........just look at what one of them's been saying about the Miners strike...........same tactics and attitudes are being used against football supporters (always have been as far as I can remember.going back to the 60's)

Better to die on your feet than to live forever on your knees

Are you men or mice ?

squeak up !

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am someone who has seen many people charged with obstructing, molesting or hindering the police in carrying out their duty. I am also aware that police get cross examined on occasions where they have not followed the rules for example they have not afforded an accused with a caution.

I am also au fait with the legislation. and in terms of section 41 of the Police (Scotland) Act 1967 as amended there is no statutory defence in terms of what you suggest. maybe you can direct us to the relevant statute, statutory instrument or case that supports your argument.

For the avoidance of doubt, since police powers of arrest and the requisite offences of obstruction etc seem to confuse some here, I will provide the LAW on these points.

Section 41 Police (Scotland) Act as amended, Please note S41 (1) (b) as proof that the UB cannot defend a person from being arrested!

41Assaults on constables, etc.

(1)

Any person who—

(a)

assaults, resists, obstructs, molests or hinders a constable in the execution of his duty or a person assisting a constable in the execution of his duty, or

(b)

rescues or attempts to rescue, or assists or attempts to assist the escape of, any person in custody,

shall be guilty of an offence and on summary conviction shall be liable—

(i)

where he has not, within the period of two years immediately preceding the commission of the said offence, been convicted of an offence against this section, to a fine not exceeding [F142level 4 on the standard scale] or to imprisonment for a period not exceeding three months or to both such fine and such imprisonment;

(ii)

where he has, within the first-mentioned period, been convicted of an offence against this section, to imprisonment for a period not exceeding nine months [F143or to a fine not exceeding the prescribed sum within the meaning of [F144section 225(8) of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995], or to both.]

(2)

The reference in subsection (1) of this section to a person in custody shall be construed as a reference to a person—

(a)

who is in the lawful custody of a constable or any person assisting a constable in the execution of his duty, or

(b)

who is in the act of eluding or escaping from such custody, whether or not he has actually been arrested.

[

F145(3)

This section also applies to a constable who is a member of a police force maintained in England and Wales or in Northern Ireland when he is executing a warrant or otherwise acting in Scotland by virtue of any enactment conferring powers on him in Scotland.]

[

F146(4)

In this section references to a person assisting a constable in the execution of his duty include references to any person who is neither a constable nor in the company of a constable but who—

(a)

is a member of an international joint investigation team that is led by a constable of a police force or by a member of the National Criminal Intelligence Service or of the National Crime Squad; and

(b)

is carrying out his functions as a member of that team.

(5)

In this section “international joint investigation team” means any investigation team formed in accordance with—

(a)

any framework decision on joint investigation teams adopted under Article 34 of the Treaty on European Union;

(b)

the Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters between the Member States of the European Union, and the Protocol to that Convention, established in accordance with that Article of that Treaty; or

©

any international agreement to which the United Kingdom is a party and which is specified for the purposes of this section in an order made by the Secretary of State with the consent of the Scottish Ministers.

(6)

A statutory instrument containing an order under subsection (5) shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.

Section 13 Criminal Law Procedure (Scotland) Act Police powers relating to those they suspect of committing an offence

13

Powers relating to suspects and potential witnesses.

(1)

Where a constable has reasonable grounds for suspecting that a person has committed or is committing an offence at any place, he may require—

(a)

that person, if the constable finds him at that place or at any place where the constable is entitled to be, to give[F1the information mentioned in subsection (1A) below]F1 and may ask him for an explanation of the circumstances which have given rise to the constable’s suspicion;

(b)

any other person whom the constable finds at that place or at any place where the constable is entitled to be and who the constable believes has information relating to the offence, to give [F2the information mentioned in subsection (1A) below]F2 .

[

F3(1A)

That information is—

(a)

the person's name;

(b)

the person's address;

©

the person's date of birth;

(d)

the person's place of birth (in such detail as the constable considers necessary or expedient for the purpose of establishing the person's identity); and

(e)

the person's nationality.]

F3(2)

The constable may require the person mentioned in paragraph (a) of subsection (1) above to remain with him while he (either or both)—

(a)

subject to subsection (3) below, verifies any [F4information mentioned in subsection (1A) above]F4 given by the person;

(b)

notes any explanation proffered by the person.

(3)

The constable shall exercise his power under paragraph (a) of subsection (2) above only where it appears to him that such verification can be obtained quickly.

(4)

A constable may use reasonable force to ensure that the person mentioned in paragraph (a) of subsection (1) above remains with him.

(5)

A constable shall inform a person, when making a requirement of that person under—

(a)

paragraph (a) of subsection (1) above, of his suspicion and of the general nature of the offence which he suspects that the person has committed or is committing;

(b)

paragraph (b) of subsection (1) above, of his suspicion, of the general nature of the offence which he suspects has been or is being committed and that the reason for the requirement is that he believes the person has information relating to the offence;

©

subsection (2) above, why the person is being required to remain with him;

(d)

either of the said subsections, that failure to comply with the requirement may constitute an offence.

(6)

A person mentioned in—

(a)

paragraph (a) of subsection (1) above who having been required—

(i)

under that subsection to give [F5the information mentioned in subsection (1A) above]F5 ; or

(ii)

under subsection (2) above to remain with a constable,

fails, without reasonable excuse, to do so, shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale;

(b)

paragraph (b) of the said subsection (1) who having been required under that subsection to give [F6the information mentioned in subsection (1A) above]F6 fails, without reasonable excuse, to do so shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale.

(7)

A constable may arrest without warrant any person who he has reasonable grounds for suspecting has committed an offence under subsection (6) above.

That is the law as it stands at present and I am looking forward to someone telling me where the defence of being allowed to obstruct and resist arrest where you believe the arrest is wrongful actually is.

I'm not going to bother reading all that, but what I will tell you is, that I was arrested for nothing by 4 police officers, I was charged with a BOP, resisting arrest and 4 police assaults. It went to court, and was thankfully all caught on camera. The judge ruled I had been unlawfully arrested, so was allowed to use reasonable force to stop that that arrest. All charges were dropped, and my lawyer advised me to sue the police, which I did, and 4 policemen lost their job. That was in 2001 so unless the law has changed since then, then you are allowed to use reasonable force to stop yourself from being arrested. Another policeman has lost his job in just the last month for a complaint that I made, which was also thankfully recorded. The cunts think they are above the law, no all of them, but a majority of them think they are. I put it down to being bullied in school.

That wasn't what I asked anyway, I asked, who do you work for? What department?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Upcoming Events

    • 30 March 2024 15:00 Until 17:00
      0  
      Rangers v Hibernian
      Ibrox Stadium
      Scottish Premiership

×
×
  • Create New...