The Rangers Debts Myth.

[The Educator 1,572]

Much has been made on BBC Radio Scotland and Radio Clyde about the supposed debts that were left behind when the previous company who owned Rangers went into liquidation, let's put this myth to bed once and for all. The only tax that was clearly owed was that which was not paid by Whyte, an action that was not only a crime, but may well have been a crime against the club itself, this will be resolved no doubt over the coming months in the court. Certain people out there may not like this as it will probably prove that the club was the victim rather than the perpetrator of the crime. Previous tax problems known as the small tax case may or may not have been paid, I have found that the details of this hard to decipher from the reporting that has taken place in the press. The non-tax debt can be split into two types, football and non-football. The football debts according to Charles Green have been paid by the company that now owns Rangers, this was partly forced on the club by the dubious agreement that they were forced to sign in advance of obtaining a licence to play in the league this season. This was done while the SPL/SFA are holding funds that tally to the millions that should have been forwarded to either the new owners of the club or the administrators/liquidators of the company that previously owned the club to settle debts that were left when that company went into administration, to my know ledge this has yet to be done, why? The monies are either the property of the new company or the old, not the SFA/SPL. One would hope that BDO will take steps to rectify this situation sooner rather than later. This money should have been used to pay any non-football debts that were left by the former owners of the club. It would be interesting if the said organisations would make it clear if the monies being withheld are still in there or if they have been used for other non-Rangers related matters. It has always been the mantra of our opposition that Rangers committed a crime by spending money that was not theirs to spend, what a scandal it would be if it were to be found that this is what the football authorities in Scotland have been doing to keep themselves afloat. It is a simple question, if they were asked by BDO to forward the funds within twenty four hours, is the money still there to do so. At this point I would like to point out that any monies that were to be paid to Ticketus were underwritten by Whyte, not by the club as he did not own the club when he entered into this agreement, a situation that has resulted in a court case seeking 25 million pounds that have gone missing from Rangers while under his tenure. So there we have it the debts that Rangers have supposedly "run away from" were nowhere near the levels portrayed in the media and the ones that were there were manageable. So there you have it the "Rangers Debt Myth".

[ForeverBlue_Since91 2,895]

Much has been made on BBC Radio Scotland and Radio Clyde about the supposed debts that were left behind when the previous company who owned Rangers went into liquidation, let's put this myth to bed once and for all. The only tax that was clearly owed was that which was not paid by Whyte, an action that was not only a crime, but may well have been a crime against the club itself, this will be resolved no doubt over the coming months in the court. Certain people out there may not like this as it will probably prove that the club was the victim rather than the perpetrator of the crime. Previous tax problems known as the small tax case may or may not have been paid, I have found that the details of this hard to decipher from the reporting that has taken place in the press. The non-tax debt can be split into two types, football and non-football. The football debts according to Charles Green have been paid by the company that now owns Rangers, this was partly forced on the club by the dubious agreement that they were forced to sign in advance of obtaining a licence to play in the league this season. This was done while the SPL/SFA are holding funds that tally to the millions that should have been forwarded to either the new owners of the club or the administrators/liquidators of the company that previously owned the club to settle debts that were left when that company went into administration, to my know ledge this has yet to be done, why? The monies are either the property of the new company or the old, not the SFA/SPL. One would hope that BDO will take steps to rectify this situation sooner rather than later. This money should have been used to pay any non-football debts that were left by the former owners of the club. It would be interesting if the said organisations would make it clear if the monies being withheld are still in there or if they have been used for other non-Rangers related matters. It has always been the mantra of our opposition that Rangers committed a crime by spending money that was not theirs to spend, what a scandal it would be if it were to be found that this is what the football authorities in Scotland have been doing to keep themselves afloat. It is a simple question, if they were asked by BDO to forward the funds within twenty four hours, is the money still there to do so. At this point I would like to point out that any monies that were to be paid to Ticketus were underwritten by Whyte, not by the club as he did not own the club when he entered into this agreement, a situation that has resulted in a court case seeking 25 million pounds that have gone missing from Rangers while under his tenure. So there we have it the debts that Rangers have supposedly "run away from" were nowhere near the levels portrayed in the media and the ones that were there were manageable. So there you have it the "Rangers Debt Myth".

It doesn't matter mate they don't do the truth. No matter how many people tell them they won't listen.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Much has been made on BBC Radio Scotland and Radio Clyde about the supposed debts that were left behind when the previous company who owned Rangers went into liquidation, let's put this myth to bed once and for all. The only tax that was clearly owed was that which was not paid by Whyte, an action that was not only a crime, but may well have been a crime against the club itself, this will be resolved no doubt over the coming months in the court. Certain people out there may not like this as it will probably prove that the club was the victim rather than the perpetrator of the crime. Previous tax problems known as the small tax case may or may not have been paid, I have found that the details of this hard to decipher from the reporting that has taken place in the press. The non-tax debt can be split into two types, football and non-football. The football debts according to Charles Green have been paid by the company that now owns Rangers, this was partly forced on the club by the dubious agreement that they were forced to sign in advance of obtaining a licence to play in the league this season. This was done while the SPL/SFA are holding funds that tally to the millions that should have been forwarded to either the new owners of the club or the administrators/liquidators of the company that previously owned the club to settle debts that were left when that company went into administration, to my know ledge this has yet to be done, why? The monies are either the property of the new company or the old, not the SFA/SPL. One would hope that BDO will take steps to rectify this situation sooner rather than later. This money should have been used to pay any non-football debts that were left by the former owners of the club. It would be interesting if the said organisations would make it clear if the monies being withheld are still in there or if they have been used for other non-Rangers related matters. It has always been the mantra of our opposition that Rangers committed a crime by spending money that was not theirs to spend, what a scandal it would be if it were to be found that this is what the football authorities in Scotland have been doing to keep themselves afloat. It is a simple question, if they were asked by BDO to forward the funds within twenty four hours, is the money still there to do so. At this point I would like to point out that any monies that were to be paid to Ticketus were underwritten by Whyte, not by the club as he did not own the club when he entered into this agreement, a situation that has resulted in a court case seeking 25 million pounds that have gone missing from Rangers while under his tenure. So there we have it the debts that Rangers have supposedly "run away from" were nowhere near the levels portrayed in the media and the ones that were there were manageable. So there you have it the "Rangers Debt Myth".

Precisely, my friend.

I have been saying for ages that they try to describe Whyte as representing or working in the interests of the Club when he is actually being sued for defrauding it and stealing £25m-50m.

It's a rather intentional oversight on their behalf, I suspect.

[davy1shoe 63]

I know you guys hate Clyde and others but someone needs to get on a state these facts and hopefully Keevins will be on and out in his place.

[crabbit bear 139]

Precisely, my friend.

I have been saying for ages that they try to describe Whyte as representing or working in the interests of the Club when he is actually being sued for defrauding it and stealing £25m-50m.

It's a rather intentional oversight on their behalf, I suspect.

Oh it's deliberate ok, why do you think scumdee hivs fans were wearing CW masks at the weekend.

[Beaujolais 1,371]

What I do not understand is why footballing authorities in Scotland have been allowed to withhold money owed to the old co. Surely this should go to the non footballing creditors.

Any issues the HMRC has with regards to alleged Tax avoidance or evasion strategies of the old co should be taken up with those individuals who acted as Company Directors at that time.

What is clear is that HMRC are using the massive world wide media interest in Rangers for an agenda which is not solely driven by a desire to bring in legitimate tax revenue.

[Smile 26,600]

Oh it's deliberate ok, why do you think scumdee hivs fans were wearing CW masks at the weekend.

Is it Because they are ugly bastards with all the inbreeding.

[WATP-FOREVER 5,231]

My perspective OP:

* We find ourselelves in sfl3.

* We endure an 18 month illegal transfer embargo.

* We have ±30 players left, & of that ±£20m of capital disappear from our books.

* We have been banned from Europe for 3 years.

* We have been dragged & humiliated thru every possible (lieing) newspaper & ty/radio report in Scotland.

* We have had ±£2m in prize money retained by the spl/sfa.

What exactly have we done wrong, what exactly are we truly guilty of.

Oh yes, a motherwell crook bought our club & refused to pay statutory debt. i.e; paye/ni/vat.

Not one illegal or criminal act condoned by our manager, or board member of the club, or even one child has been harmed.

And not one (no not one) reporter is reporting this.

[Johnny Hubbard 280]

can anyone quantify this.?

1) how much money is being with held by the SPL

2) how much money is being with held by the SFA

3) how much were the football debts and how much has been repaid

4) excluding both tax cases, how much are the non footballing debts

5) how much was the small tax case debt and did that include any HMRC fines

[Gaz92 966]

It's all gotten way out of hand.

As for Craig Whyte's debt, go back to the BBC interview a good few months ago. Remember he was asked about when he stopped paying PAYE? He said this knowledge was on a "need to know" basis, but could not directly answer when asked if the other board members knew what was happening. Craig Whyte was a snake who was working alone, and the only crime committed was trusting him in the first place.

And for EBT's, have you seen the way they've reacted to the HMRC appeal? To me it seems like a bit of relief, as that really was the big one. They relied on that being worth £50 and £90 million worth of debt, as that is the one they could really hold against us.

Exactly how sad is it that they are quite happy to allow the taxpayer's money to be used simply to attempt to attach embarrassment to our club?

[bluenosebrad 452]

I agree OP

I think what gets my goat is when septic fans and Radio make statements like when we ran away from our debit we are a new club, this means we did this on purpose. We tried to do a deal with HMRC through CVA which they said no and a made up figure that did not exsist. I concede Whyte did not pay during his time however it was managable debit HMRC said we dont do deals (ya tell that to Hearts who got their deal). During admin the new company purchased Rangers assets and transfered to new owner BEFORE the OLD company was liquidated, therefore keeping every thing Rangers no timeline or unbroken history as some people seem to think.They say we need to move on as we are playing the victim card its nearly impossible to do as the Club, fans etc are under attack from media, radio other fans, SPL and the SFA and HMRC again but we have decided to fight back we are now ment to be victims so frustrating. I have written on here time to stop lets move on but these constant attacks it becoming abit to much however there will be NO Surrender in my corner.

[BRITNEY IS NOT FEELING IT 8,293]

We all know the truth , although if the press / media could only read the OP post , to see how simply put the whole thing can be read ,rather than exaggerating and putting lies to print .

[geronimoo 1,474]

I keep hearing this non footballing debts, I would like to see a list of these companies and how much we owe to them, I would also have no problem if the money being held by the SFA was used to pay these people.

Under Murray we were still paying the debt so we must have been making money but granted we were getting it in 1 hand and giving it away with the other, Whyte didn't pay Tax so where did that money go, I wouldn't like the club to pay that debt as I believe HMRC should be chasing Whyte for that money as after all it looks as if he has that money somewhere.

And as for the Ticketus, I will admit I am no financial whizz kid but looking at it all I can see was money loaned to Whyte, I don't see how it could have been loaned to the club because if it was that would mean the money was loaned to the club for the club to buy itself.

[eosmhdo 1,879]

My perspective OP:

* We find ourselelves in sfl3.

* We endure an 18 month illegal transfer embargo.

* We have ±30 players left, & of that ±£20m of capital disappear from our books.

* We have been banned from Europe for 3 years.

* We have been dragged & humiliated thru every possible (lieing) newspaper & ty/radio report in Scotland.

* We have had ±£2m in prize money retained by the spl/sfa.

What exactly have we done wrong, what exactly are we truly guilty of.

Oh yes, a motherwell crook bought our club & refused to pay statutory debt. i.e; paye/ni/vat.

Not one illegal or criminal act condoned by our manager, or board member of the club, or even one child has been harmed.

And not one (no not one) reporter is reporting this.

I would like to see Jim Traynor tackling these issues.

Bit disappointed with lack of noise from him so far.

One interview with Clyde is not enough IMO.

I hope he is compiling a large hit list of targets to expose but so far, not good enough

[castile 32]

There have been so many lies, half-truths, rumours, and exaggerations the truth is lost. I think there is a saying that "truth is the first victim in war."

I find it very hard to unravel the truth. Our enemies have rolled tax issues and debt into one big crime. It's hard to unravel it.

Another rumour / half-truth is the Jelavic transfer money. Did we sell him for £4M, and Everton paid the money into one of Whyte's accounts? Could that money have paid HMRC for taxes due? I don't know, I just don't know.

[The Educator 1,572]

I have written on here time to stop lets move on but these constant attacks it becoming abit to much however there will be NO Surrender in my corner.

The time to move on will be when the truth is out there and those who have conspired against us are exposed for what they really are liars and crooks who must be pursued through the courts for justice to have been seen to have been done.

[The Educator 1,572]

can anyone quantify this.?

1) how much money is being with held by the SPL

2) how much money is being with held by the SFA

3) how much were the football debts and how much has been repaid

4) excluding both tax cases, how much are the non footballing debts

5) how much was the small tax case debt and did that include any HMRC fines

Like you I would like to see an accurate figure on this with statements from CG on what we have paid since he has taken over, from the administrators/BDO on how much they believe has been retained by the SFA/SPL and what has been done to retrieve it and last but not least, the SPL/SFA on why they have not forwarded it to the club or the administrators/BDO. In the case of the SFA/SPL I would also like to know if the still have the money and if not why as it is not theirs to spend. I have heard figures of between 2.5 and 4 million has been held by the SPL/SFA via winnings from the 2011/12 season, TV money from the 2011/12 season and money from clubs who settled with Rangers for players who let rather than have their contracts transferred to the new owners of the club. Remember this, everyday that this cash has been held it has generated bank interest. This income should also be forwarded to either the club or BDO for the payment of any genuine debts left by the previous owner of the club. It is quite conceivable that if the original sum held was say 3.5 million that with interest it could now be around 4.5/5 million. As an add on there could also be around 25 million that the administrators were pursuing Whyte and his cronies for and any compensation we get for the players whose new clubs have refused to settle with Rangers so a final figure of 30 to 40 million is not out of the question.

[Bluedell 14]

Certain people out there may not like this as it will probably prove that the club was the victim rather than the perpetrator of the crime. Previous tax problems known as the small tax case may or may not have been paid, I have found that the details of this hard to decipher from the reporting that has taken place in the press.

It wasn't paid.

At this point I would like to point out that any monies that were to be paid to Ticketus were underwritten by Whyte, not by the club as he did not own the club when he entered into this agreement, a situation that has resulted in a court case seeking 25 million pounds that have gone missing from Rangers while under his tenure.

The fact that the debt was underwritten by Whyte is irrelevant. Rangers owed the cash. If you look at the date of the Ticketus agreement, I'm sure that you will find it was post-Whyte takeover. The Ticketus cash was largely used to pay the debt that we owed to LTSB, replacing one debt with another so I don't think that the Ticketus debt can just be ignored.

[The Educator 1,572]

The fact that the debt was underwritten by Whyte is irrelevant. Rangers owed the cash. If you look at the date of the Ticketus agreement, I'm sure that you will find it was post-Whyte takeover. The Ticketus cash was largely used to pay the debt that we owed to LTSB, replacing one debt with another so I don't think that the Ticketus debt can just be ignored.

I obviously haven't seen the documents involved so cannot say that you are wrong as to when Whyte signed the Ticketus deal, however as his take over of the club has brought about a police investigation for what I am led to believe is the fraudulent take over of the parent company then there is enough of a grey area to surmise that if found guilty if it went to court then the debt would rest with him. After all on more than one occasion we have heard that he personally underwrote the deal, not the club. Indeed I wonder if a legal eagle could argue that Ticketus were actually also party to any actions taken by Whyte and as such the deal may or may not be open to argument that the club was not responsible. As someone with no knowledge of the legal system I can only voice hypothetical scenarios on this.

[joker69 60]

Traynor should be setting everyone straight surely it is part of his remit

[Bluedell 14]

I obviously haven't seen the documents involved so cannot say that you are wrong as to when Whyte signed the Ticketus deal, however as his take over of the club has brought about a police investigation for what I am led to believe is the fraudulent take over of the parent company then there is enough of a grey area to surmise that if found guilty if it went to court then the debt would rest with him.

I doubt it would work like that. The company still entered into the agreement and anything Whyte is found guilty of is unlikely to affect the debt.

After all on more than one occasion we have heard that he personally underwrote the deal, not the club. Indeed I wonder if a legal eagle could argue that Ticketus were actually also party to any actions taken by Whyte and as such the deal may or may not be open to argument that the club was not responsible. As someone with no knowledge of the legal system I can only voice hypothetical scenarios on this.

I can't believe that Ticketus did not have detailed knowledge of what Whyte was up to and as such I can have no sympathy for them. There may be people at Ticketus who may have acted immorally if not illegally, but the cash still was transferred and individual acts can't take away the debt.

Directors can be found guilty of acts of fraud but unfortunately it doesn't cancel out transactions of their companies in most cases.

[Thermopylae 15,286]

Much has been made on BBC Radio Scotland and Radio Clyde about the supposed debts that were left behind when the previous company who owned Rangers went into liquidation, let's put this myth to bed once and for all. The only tax that was clearly owed was that which was not paid by Whyte, an action that was not only a crime, but may well have been a crime against the club itself, this will be resolved no doubt over the coming months in the court. Certain people out there may not like this as it will probably prove that the club was the victim rather than the perpetrator of the crime. Previous tax problems known as the small tax case may or may not have been paid, I have found that the details of this hard to decipher from the reporting that has taken place in the press. The non-tax debt can be split into two types, football and non-football. The football debts according to Charles Green have been paid by the company that now owns Rangers, this was partly forced on the club by the dubious agreement that they were forced to sign in advance of obtaining a licence to play in the league this season. This was done while the SPL/SFA are holding funds that tally to the millions that should have been forwarded to either the new owners of the club or the administrators/liquidators of the company that previously owned the club to settle debts that were left when that company went into administration, to my know ledge this has yet to be done, why? The monies are either the property of the new company or the old, not the SFA/SPL. One would hope that BDO will take steps to rectify this situation sooner rather than later. This money should have been used to pay any non-football debts that were left by the former owners of the club. It would be interesting if the said organisations would make it clear if the monies being withheld are still in there or if they have been used for other non-Rangers related matters. It has always been the mantra of our opposition that Rangers committed a crime by spending money that was not theirs to spend, what a scandal it would be if it were to be found that this is what the football authorities in Scotland have been doing to keep themselves afloat. It is a simple question, if they were asked by BDO to forward the funds within twenty four hours, is the money still there to do so. At this point I would like to point out that any monies that were to be paid to Ticketus were underwritten by Whyte, not by the club as he did not own the club when he entered into this agreement, a situation that has resulted in a court case seeking 25 million pounds that have gone missing from Rangers while under his tenure. So there we have it the debts that Rangers have supposedly "run away from" were nowhere near the levels portrayed in the media and the ones that were there were manageable. So there you have it the "Rangers Debt Myth".

Send this to Derek Johnstone he's in a better position to pull up the likes of nuremberg and walker than anybody

[berry89 16]

Fucking hell, learn to use the return key!

[baxfanalex 113]

It wasn't paid.

The fact that the debt was underwritten by Whyte is irrelevant. Rangers owed the cash. If you look at the date of the Ticketus agreement, I'm sure that you will find it was post-Whyte takeover. The Ticketus cash was largely used to pay the debt that we owed to LTSB, replacing one debt with another so I don't think that the Ticketus debt can just be ignored.

The Ticketus debt is considered by Ticketus themselves to be owed solely by Whyte. They have raised a court action for recovery of the full amount and costs, without naming Rangers as co-dedtors or implying any culpability at club level. They know who they were dealing with and all of our directors/board members have been excluded from the court action. The debt was underwritten by Whyte and is, most certainly not irrelevent. Rangers, if they owed the cash as you assert, would be named as co-defendants in the Ticketus legal case, are we ? Ticketus Debt = Whyte Liability. £19M to Lloyds, Bank of Scotland was transacted while a LBS director sat on our board. A huge question mark must hang over the validity of that transaction when the full circumstances are brought to light. As always there is a ton of law to plough through before an ounce of justice will emerge.

[ForeverBlue_Since91 2,895]

What I do not understand is why footballing authorities in Scotland have been allowed to withhold money owed to the old co. Surely this should go to the non footballing creditors.

Any issues the HMRC has with regards to alleged Tax avoidance or evasion strategies of the old co should be taken up with those individuals who acted as Company Directors at that time.

What is clear is that HMRC are using the massive world wide media interest in Rangers for an agenda which is not solely driven by a desire to bring in legitimate tax revenue.

Aye Everyone in Scotland were so worried about all these creditors during the summer whats changed? Did they get fed up kidding everyone on they were worried about the people that lost money?