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Finally a Sheriff speaks out about the naughty song law!


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As per your posts you INVITED an argument on the merits of why SCHOOLS are not sectarian, there was no mention of the same for religions.

The answers provided to you are based on the interpretation of sectarianism as defined by encyclopedia and prove beyond reasonable doubt that denominational based schools are bigoted and sectarian

No offence mate, but you have issues. Firstly with reading, then with some deeper problems.

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By the same logic Sectarian = Bigotry = Church of Scotland.

Do you agree with that?

By strict definition, all religious associations are sectarian, according to literal interpretation, sectarian is simply adherence (through religious belief, and or instruction) to a preferred denomination. Even bigotry in itself is not malicious, it is simply a narrow minded, (or intolerant) view of differing beliefs. It is a human rights entitlement to be 'sectarian', and even 'bigoted'. It is the' hate', or' incitement of', and 'harm', or 'threatened harm' elements, in direct association with the sectarianism, and or bigotry, that are the issue. That is why there is a 'protection of freedom of expression' clause in the originally enacted Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications Act (Scotland) 2012.

Accordingly, ordinary, non denominational schools merely provide education on religions and beliefs, so, are not sectarian. However, catholic schools make provision for religious education, but, also provide religious instruction of a particular faith, therefore, are sectarian.

Ultimately, catholic schools need to be open to parliamentary scrutiny in the same manner as all other sectarian organisations have been, to ensure they conform to, and work within the constraints of the 'hate laws'.

All in the name of sporting (sorry moral) integrity of course, haha.

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At risk of appearing pedantic.....he is actually quoted as stating the following:

He said: "In this context I think that potentially those who attend Murrayfield and sing Flower of Scotland - there might be a problem."

Now...whilst the 'bold' on the words highlighted is my doing....he is def not saying that Flower of Scotland is contrary to the law.

but do i want to die in a ditch over this?....not really.

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The problem is that Judges do not write the law they are only there to implement it.

The issue lies with Parliament these laws in my opinion are an affront to freedom of expression but whatever personal opinions Judges have about the laws they have a duty to uphold and implement them.

Parliament should reconsider the manner in way they have sought to tackle sectarian behaviour as these laws are counter-productive to tackling bigotry in this country and they are contrary to our history of free expression (tu)

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Now I know it features a trial about one of them BUT, the comment from the Sheriff that the Police can't give opinion evidence about the context of songs and that the legislation is badly drafted is of use to us.

Now the Crown are considering an appeal which means the most learned Judges of the land will consider this stupid knee jerk law and may help us further.

If ANY bears you know are facing trial etc under this legislation, make sure they tell their lawyers about this development.

The Sheriff also says that Flower of Scotland falls foul of the law and describes it as "mince" This guy seems to understand where we are coming from.

Watch this space as it may be that the law will get changed one way or another after all!

Oh yeah, and he Blames the Schools too :lol:

BNB thanks for posting. Much of what the Sheriff is saying is along the exact lines of what was opined in an excellent article by Michael Kelly over a year ago. He thought the law ill-conceived, articulated his reasoning and predicted Sheriffs my kick it into touch.

As for schools. If privately funded you may teach religion - However ALL state schools should be non-denominational where there should be no teaching of religion.

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Depends on what legislation they were tried under and what the line of defence was. Seems that someone had the balls to find a way and a Sheriff had the balls to say what we have all been thinking.

I don't care what happens to the guy but this could help people as I said in my OP.

He should have been done under the POT Act with a sectarian breach tagged on as a safety net

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Are you kidding me on? :lol:

If you want to practice religion church and chapel are the places for that. Are you telling me its correct for children to go to nursery together and when the time comes to go to school, young James can't understand why Alan and Sean, who were his friends and only stay two minutes away from him are being sent to a school purely because of religion?

Why should children of 4 and 5 be separated for one simple reason, their parents want them kept with "their own"

Spot on. There a was a catholic lad who used to sit next to me at a non-denominational primary school in Ayr. Back then, people from my school had the choice of going to one of two non-denominational secondary schools. I asked my friend which school he'd be going to. He said that he'd not be going to either school, as his parents wanted him to attend the RC secondary school. I remember thinking at the time that it was wrong for his parents to take him away from all his friends (he was a nice lad and was well liked) and send him to a school where he didn't know anyone.

The apartheid system doesn't just apply to kids, though. Getting a teaching post at a catholic school is weighted in favour of catholics, whereas people of any faith have an equal chance of getting a job at a non-denominational school. A former workmate's wife, a protestant, was turned down for a teaching post at an RC school not so very long ago. She was by the chair of the interview panel that another candidate got the job because they were a closer match to the RC ethos than she was. The successful candidate was, of course, RC.

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Spot on. There a was a catholic lad who used to sit next to me at a non-denominational primary school in Ayr. Back then, people from my school had the choice of going to one of two non-denominational secondary schools. I asked my friend which school he'd be going to. He said that he'd not be going to either school, as his parents wanted him to attend the RC secondary school. I remember thinking at the time that it was wrong for his parents to take him away from all his friends (he was a nice lad and was well liked) and send him to a school where he didn't know anyone.

The apartheid system doesn't just apply to kids, though. Getting a teaching post at a catholic school is weighted in favour of catholics, whereas people of any faith have an equal chance of getting a job at a non-denominational school. A former workmate's wife, a protestant, was turned down for a teaching post at an RC school not so very long ago. She was by the chair of the interview panel that another candidate got the job because they were a closer match to the RC ethos than she was. The successful candidate was, of course, RC.

Should sending kids to private schools like hutchy also be banned then?

After all the parents of the children are making a choice to separate them from the kids they went to primary school with?

To be fair I actually agree with you that catholic schools are wrong, but I don't feel comfortable in calling them sectarian, not that you are.

I agree that any discrimination on employment is very wrong though. Catholic teachers should not get preferential treatment.

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Should sending kids to private schools like hutchy also be banned then?

After all the parents of the children are making a choice to separate them from the kids they went to primary school with?

To be fair I actually agree with you that catholic schools are wrong, but I don't feel comfortable in calling them sectarian, not that you are.

I agree that any discrimination on employment is very wrong though. Catholic teachers should not get preferential treatment.

Private schools should continue to be allowed to teach religious based education.

State funded schools should be non-denominational and religious free zones or as the yanks refer to it as a separation of church and state. Fairly simple.

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Private schools should continue to be allowed to teach religious based education.

State funded schools should be non-denominational and religious free zones or as the yanks refer to it as a separation of church and state. Fairly simple.

Fair enough, can't really argue with that.

Well actually, I think religion should actually be banned from all schools, private or not.

I think I'm actually arguing with myself here!

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Fair enough, can't really argue with that.

Well actually, I think religion should actually be banned from all schools, private or not.

I think I'm actually arguing with myself here!

Hope you manage to piss yourself off then you'll realize how the rest of us feel. doh :p20:

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i was found guilty for saying the word fenian last year.not the word bastard where do i stand here.blue nose babe lawyers young lass said no as the judge had passed his sentence. AND THE WARDERS TOOK ME DOWN CRIED OUT NO SURRENDER BLESS THE RED HAND AND THE CROWN thanks

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Feck the common sense of it.

Guy should have been done. They have pushed for the legislation, its not acceptable to sing about terrorists.

They wont rest until they have free reign to sing their terrorist bile, but we get the jail for uttering a mild curse word.

Its too late to back down now. There is no way they can allow certain songs to come back, so we have to make sure these terrorist songs are outlawed.

I agree. The law won't change. The PF will probably appeal against it and win. The wee runt should have been done. The song in question names all of the hunger strikers. All convicted terrorists. If that isn't glorifying terrorism I don't know what is.
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