allgers 735 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 BDO stated we were owed more money than was owed and there would be a surplus, did they not.I believe that taxes should be paid, but I also believe that HMRC went after us with the intention of putting us out of business, that's why we should never ever pay a penny of that tax bill and if the rest of Scottish Football does not like it, fuck them... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLawMan 6,240 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 I always thought it was Whytes debt what will happen when he is found guilty then?If he is found guilty of Financial Assistance (which is essentially buying controlling interest using the companies funds and something which in my opinion from what we know, is the case here) then the sale can be deemed void and he could face criminal prosecution.Does this mean David Murray gets everything back ? Dont think so as things are a bit far gone for that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluepeter 5,627 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Sorry was being dense and responding on my iphone. Fail.As we were a going concern, any ongoing debts would have been taken up by Whyte, so the only external debt due was the bank loan to Lloyds of £18m and the Wee Tax Case of £2.5m.We would have trade creditors, football creditors, finance leases but these were not due at the time of sale. Bond holders were only due money back on administration not in the normal course of trade. We had no overdraft as the sale was done in June after season ticket money and the board had already been driving to eliminate this.Administration was entirely avoidable except for the actions of HMRC. They played hardball and stalled and delayed and fought instead of coming to an arrangement. In the end they lost their case, but the damage had been done as our bankers refused to support us and no other bank would lend with the risk that was over us.I was typing on phone also, hence 'Adam' selling instead of 'DM...' Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
theiconicman 2,991 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 If he is found guilty of Financial Assistance (which is essentially buying controlling interest using the companies funds and something which in my opinion from what we know, is the case here) then the sale can be deemed void and he could face criminal prosecution.Does this mean David Murray gets everything back ? Dont think so as things are a bit far gone for that. The courts have the option to unravel the proceeding sale but this won't be taken up given what has happened to get us to where we are. I'd settle for googly eyes to spend a long time in BarL and his pocket money on lube. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight-Edge-Loyal 6,686 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 If he is found guilty of Financial Assistance (which is essentially buying controlling interest using the companies funds and something which in my opinion from what we know, is the case here) then the sale can be deemed void and he could face criminal prosecution.Does this mean David Murray gets everything back ? Dont think so as things are a bit far gone for that. Wow that would be some outcome if that happened would be awful but he could have the chance to put things right.What would happen between new and oldco then? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLawMan 6,240 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Wow that would be some outcome if that happened would be awful but he could have the chance to put things right.What would happen between new and oldco then?As i say, i think things are too far gone on that front.Whilst the original sale could be declared void, i believe Lloyds would not need to pay a penny back as their transaction would have went through Whyte and im unsure how any debt procured from the sale date would be treated.Is it possible that all debt from the 6th May 2011 incurred by Rangers is transferred to Craig Whyte in these circumstances ? I believe so.Is it possible that therefore the club could be handed back to David Murray owing only £2.5m to HMRC and £3m to trade creditors ? Highly unlikely but I believe so.Is it possible that under those circumstances we could demand our TV and prize money etc from SPL ? Highly unlikely but I believe so.Is it possible we could get back in the top division earlier ? Highly unlikely but I believe so.I think the most likely outcome is that Whyte will do time and the sale will be left as it was if im being honest. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight-Edge-Loyal 6,686 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 As i say, i think things are too far gone on that front.Whilst the original sale could be declared void, i believe Lloyds would not need to pay a penny back as their transaction would have went through Whyte and im unsure how any debt procured from the sale date would be treated.Is it possible that all debt from the 6th May 2011 incurred by Rangers is transferred to Craig Whyte in these circumstances ? I believe so.Is it possible that therefore the club could be handed back to David Murray owing only £2.5m to HMRC and £3m to trade creditors ? Highly unlikely but I believe so.Is it possible that under those circumstances we could demand our TV and prize money etc from SPL ? Highly unlikely but I believe so.Is it possible we could get back in the top division earlier ? Highly unlikely but I believe so.I think the most likely outcome is that Whyte will do time and the sale will be left as it was if im being honest. I hopw so David Murray being back wouldnt be great imo id like things to stay the same and our board given the chance to take us onwards and upwards. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Robot 21,149 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 As i say, i think things are too far gone on that front.Whilst the original sale could be declared void, i believe Lloyds would not need to pay a penny back as their transaction would have went through Whyte and im unsure how any debt procured from the sale date would be treated.Is it possible that all debt from the 6th May 2011 incurred by Rangers is transferred to Craig Whyte in these circumstances ? I believe so.Is it possible that therefore the club could be handed back to David Murray owing only £2.5m to HMRC and £3m to trade creditors ? Highly unlikely but I believe so.Is it possible that under those circumstances we could demand our TV and prize money etc from SPL ? Highly unlikely but I believe so.Is it possible we could get back in the top division earlier ? Highly unlikely but I believe so.I think the most likely outcome is that Whyte will do time and the sale will be left as it was if im being honest. Is it not along these lines that the American guy was wanting to do? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getstiffed 8,863 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 The BDO estimated there was the potential to recover upwards of 50 million pounds that was owed to the club at the time of admin. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeverBlue_Since91 2,895 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 This is the most successful FOOTBALL CLUB in the world not the financial times. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLawMan 6,240 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 This is the most successful FOOTBALL CLUB in the world not the financial times.Que?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgary 12 Posted November 22, 2013 Author Share Posted November 22, 2013 Thanks again for all your replies. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getstiffed 8,863 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 BDO stated we were owed more money than was owed and there would be a surplus, did they not.I believe that taxes should be paid, but I also believe that HMRC went after us with the intention of putting us out of business, that's why we should never ever pay a penny of that tax bill and if the rest of Scottish Football does not like it, fuck them... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigo 32,526 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Net debt in the unaudited accounts of June 2011 (at the time of the sale to the shyster) was stated as £14 051 000. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelvd1873 7,159 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 the only external debt due was the bank loan to Lloyds of £18m and the Wee Tax Case of £2.5m.Administration was entirely avoidable except for the actions of HMRC. They played hardball and stalled and delayed and fought instead of coming to an arrangement. In the end they lost their case, but the damage had been done as our bankers refused to support us and no other bank would lend with the risk that was over us.Meanwhile Hmrc have let other football teams/major companies off rather light considering they had a far bigger debt than our potential liability!! And some don't believe this was peddled by evil powers at be!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelvd1873 7,159 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Double post Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
theiconicman 2,991 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Meanwhile Hmrc have let other football teams/major companies off rather light considering they had a far bigger debt than our potential liability!! And some don't believe this was peddled by evil powers at be!!I think there are many in Scottish football who hate us, but I don't think that is what got us here.There was a perfect storm and we were in the middle of it. People took advantage of it certainly, but it was not some great conspiracy.SDM operated a fucking risky bit of tax avoidance.He was up to his neck in debt to an out of control bank.The bank went bust and was taken over.HMRC started taking aggressive actions against avoidance.Lloyds wanted their money back.The global economy went to shit.SDM lost ultimate control of his business.A fucking chancer and utter reptile of a man got his grubby hands on us.Only after all of that, did those in Scottish football line up to take their kicks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelvd1873 7,159 Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 HMRC started taking aggressive actions against avoidance. Yes but why only pursue us so vigorously, and not other clubs/companies,,, Arsenal? Vodafone? etc etcOnly after all of that, did those in Scottish football line up to take their kicks. I didnt mention anything about others in Scottish football! But now you mention it. What about Focus (with its links to Celtic) complaining and having our away fans banned from ultimately a very important away match against Malmo in the champions league? Which if we would have won, with the help of our support being present could have possibly prevented the whole administration process! Your right they did see their opportunity or was it all part of a master plan? Too many opportunities to be coincidences in my view! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gersfan1972 6 Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 We owed 55m when administration was called27m to Ticketus14m to HMRC8m to bond holders5m to trade creditors (inc football debts)And a bit on finance leases did the ticketus deal not get canceled ! ? By Duff and phelps ! ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
theiconicman 2,991 Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 did the ticketus deal not get canceled ! ? By Duff and phelps ! ?No, they were ruled as ordinary creditors. Ticketus were arguing they owned the future season books regardlessod administration. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
weshallnotbemoved! 714 Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Anybody that wants anymore money can fuck right off.Parasites with no honour. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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