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European Commission seek explanation on Celtic land deals


Carling1873
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When I read the rules on state aid it never said anything about having to be from another country in the EU. You may well be right but I never saw anything.

Not sure to be honest on the point of who is an "interested party" but obviously in terms of whether it's state aid or not the first thing the rules acknowledge is that it needs to affect trade between member states. I'll need to look into that. Thought maybe Legia Warsaw would have got involved a while back.

"1. Save as otherwise provided in the Treaties, any aid granted by a Member State or through State resources in any form whatsoever which distorts or threatens to distort competition by favouring certain undertakings or the production of certain goods shall, in so far as it affects trade between Member States, be incompatible with the internal market."

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Spectre,

I appreciate what you are saying, but let's look at an hypothetical situation.

Supposing you were an investor who was interested in buying Rangers and you were based out of let's say Switzerland.

You look at C1888c's situation and you decide that you can't compete with that kind of biased aid ( State Aid? ), and you say to yourself - 'What's the point?.' Rangers will therefore not benefit from International investment because of a perceived bias by the local authorities towards C1888c.

Would that not cover International State Aid? All that would be required is one investor, who can prove 'Proof of funds' (Dave King?), to testify that this is how he perceived the situation to be, and how does the commission answer that?

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Spectre,

I appreciate what you are saying, but let's look at an hypothetical situation.

Supposing you were an investor who was interested in buying Rangers and you were based out of let's say Switzerland.

You look at C1888c's situation and you decide that you can't compete with that kind of biased aid ( State Aid? ), and you say to yourself - 'What's the point?.' Rangers will therefore not benefit from International investment because of a perceived bias by the local authorities towards C1888c.

Would that not cover International State Aid? All that would be required is one investor, who can prove 'Proof of funds' (Dave King?), to testify that this is how he perceived the situation to be, and how does the commission answer that?

No, I don't think it would, purely because Rangers are from the same member state, but it is state aid (provided all other tests are satisfied) once it is affecting trade competition from another member state which with Celtic there's the obvious footballing competition of CL and europa league where any assistance improves their chances of progressing at the expense of teams from other member states. There's another argument that some Celtic fans travel from the Republic of Ireland, every one of them has a local team that they are choosing Celtic over, if Celtic have received money or benefits that allow them improve their team or facilities to be more appealing to these people than they would be otherwise, at the expense of their local Irish teams then that again is something that is affecting competition between member states.

Having looked at it now though to be an interested party you need only be affected by the aid so in straight forward terms a rangers shareholder could be but there could be a circular argument against that in that can rangers be truly affected when any anti competitive effect against Rangers, or any other team from the UK, would in isolation be perfectly lawful. There is also a question of whether it is affecting the individual complainer, even in his role as a shareholder, in terms of competition.

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No, I don't think it would, purely because Rangers are from the same member state, but it is state aid (provided all other tests are satisfied) once it is affecting trade competition from another member state which with Celtic there's the obvious footballing competition of CL and europa league where any assistance improves their chances of progressing at the expense of teams from other member states. There's another argument that some Celtic fans travel from the Republic of Ireland, every one of them has a local team that they are choosing Celtic over, if Celtic have received money or benefits that allow them improve their team or facilities to be more appealing to these people than they would be otherwise, at the expense of their local Irish teams then that again is something that is affecting competition between member states.

Having looked at it now though to be an interested party you need only be affected by the aid so in straight forward terms a rangers shareholder could be but there could be a circular argument against that in that can rangers be truly affected when any anti competitive effect against Rangers, or any other team from the UK, would in isolation be perfectly lawful. There is also a question of whether it is affecting the individual complainer, even in his role as a shareholder, in terms of competition.

If you happen to be a Glaswegian or Glasgow based bear , even better. As a case can be made that it is your council's land and as a counci taxpayer and voter you are directly effected. Was this deal taking away monies from the council that are badly needed? Was your council outside influenced in anyway ,shape or form?

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Here is an excerpt from a piece in the herald.

"Essentially this amounts to another Scottish football club, none of whom were involved in the 11-month inquiries ahead of last week's decision by the European Commission not to proceed any further with the allegations"

So with pzj being a shareholder does this not give him a right to appeal..

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Of the other club's currently being pursued by the EC under State Aid legislation, who is their complainant? Is this info in public domain, would certainly give a steer on the interested party requirement.

Thats the problem they are still under investigation it will only be when it gets thrown out and an appeal started would there be a need to know who the complainent is
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New update on footballtaxhavens basically saying NHSGCC agreed the money they got from the scum for lennoxtown was to be used for an integrated health centre but it was not and the scottish government ended up funding it instead as the money that NHSGCC got was used to give back to the scum via the SLA

http://footballtaxhavens.wordpress.com/2014/11/22/nhsggc-board-only-approved-that-upper-site-funds-were-to-create-a-lennoxtown-integrated-health-centre-but-were-directed-to-celtic-sla/

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I had to stop following PZJ, his "battle" with that other cretin Scotzine is fucking tedious, both of them come across as immature trumpets, neither has any credibility!

Couldn't agree more mate , he's been pissin me off for the last couple of months . I hope he's reading this and realises how ridiculous he comes across on twitter. We all know Muirhead is a Rangers Hater and it was funny when pzj found out about Muirhead not fulfilling his obligation on his Trust Deed , but now it's just coming across as childish tit-for-tat .
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Such a pity that those who are so easy to moan about PZJ's efforts don't actually take up the call and do some of the work on this themselves. To have a dig at someone with to my knowledge has no legal training, but has been willing to take on the people involved in these scandals with their resources seems pretty poor fair to me. What next will they be posting there is no story here and that he's wasting his time and making it all up? Oh sorry, that's the mhedia and c****c's line isn't it.

Agreed. I work in the construction industry and deal with planning and building control. I can only admire the effort they have put in so far and they are onto something. Others should be joining in and make the voices abit louder and harder to deal with.

mrmojorisin and Tontospal like this
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Such a pity that those who are so easy to moan about PZJ's efforts don't actually take up the call and do some of the work on this themselves. To have a dig at someone with to my knowledge has no legal training, but has been willing to take on the people involved in these scandals with their resources seems pretty poor fair to me. What next will they be posting there is no story here and that he's wasting his time and making it all up? Oh sorry, that's the mhedia and c****c's line isn't it.

I think we all admire what pzj has done and is still doing, however some of his tweets could be seen to undermine what he is trying to achieve.

In addition, his analysis of the annual accounts of Celtic is not entirely accurate, which again undermines what he is trying to achieve IMO

left winger likes this
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Sprotson11 "I think we all admire what pzj has done and is still doing, however some of his tweets could be seen to undermine what he is trying to achieve.

In addition, his analysis of the annual accounts of Celtic is not entirely accurate, which again undermines what he is trying to achieve IMO"

To my understanding PJZ is just a normal everyday guy who has no training in these matters so you can't expect him to deal with things any better than any of the rest of us would. From what we have seen he's had to field a fair amount of abuse for taking is on, have you tried to contact him to discuss the inaccuracies that you may have identified? I had a quick read through their accounts and to be truthful they seem to contradict themselves in regard to debt/no debt, please note I have no background in finance.

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Sprotson11 "I think we all admire what pzj has done and is still doing, however some of his tweets could be seen to undermine what he is trying to achieve.

In addition, his analysis of the annual accounts of Celtic is not entirely accurate, which again undermines what he is trying to achieve IMO"

To my understanding PJZ is just a normal everyday guy who has no training in these matters so you can't expect him to deal with things any better than any of the rest of us would. From what we have seen he's had to field a fair amount of abuse for taking is on, have you tried to contact him to discuss the inaccuracies that you may have identified? I had a quick read through their accounts and to be truthful they seem to contradict themselves in regard to debt/no debt, please note I have no background in finance.

My missus, who btw hates football so no allegiances, says there accounts are cleverly done but anyone with a background in finance/business will tell you they are up to their necks in it.

That degree finally paying off hen I said to her :D

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Sprotson11 "I think we all admire what pzj has done and is still doing, however some of his tweets could be seen to undermine what he is trying to achieve.

In addition, his analysis of the annual accounts of Celtic is not entirely accurate, which again undermines what he is trying to achieve IMO"

To my understanding PJZ is just a normal everyday guy who has no training in these matters so you can't expect him to deal with things any better than any of the rest of us would. From what we have seen he's had to field a fair amount of abuse for taking is on, have you tried to contact him to discuss the inaccuracies that you may have identified? I had a quick read through their accounts and to be truthful they seem to contradict themselves in regard to debt/no debt, please note I have no background in finance.

I understand that he is an "every day guy" and therefore IMO he should not state certain things as fact regarding the accounts when he does not have that expertise. I have contacted him directly on twitter regarding some of the points where I think he has been inaccurate. An example would be where he states that Celtic paid off their overdraft and have no cash at bank, yet the accounts show that it was paid off but there is still cash at the bank. Claiming certain things which are not true only undermines him when he gets other more important facts correct like the mortgage charges.

Their accounts certainly do contradict themselves, they have been very clever about the, and do certain things before cut offs to ensure they are either in or out of the accounts.

PZJ's overall claim that they are next financially stable is certainly accurate.

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I understand that he is an "every day guy" and therefore IMO he should not state certain things as fact regarding the accounts when he does not have that expertise. I have contacted him directly on twitter regarding some of the points where I think he has been inaccurate. An example would be where he states that Celtic paid off their overdraft and have no cash at bank, yet the accounts show that it was paid off but there is still cash at the bank. Claiming certain things which are not true only undermines him when he gets other more important facts correct like the mortgage charges.

Their accounts certainly do contradict themselves, they have been very clever about the, and do certain things before cut offs to ensure they are either in or out of the accounts.

PZJ's overall claim that they are next financially stable is certainly accurate.

With respect you come across as pretty pedantic.

I have no idea who PZJ is but he is beyond reproach for what he is doing on our behalf with negligible support.

If our support could unite and rid itself of the divisive and apathetic we could be a force to reckon with and go after the real enemies of Rangers.

A static protest of thousands of us outside of the City Chambers in George Square would bring this matter the attention and publicity it merits.

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With respect you come across as pretty pedantic.

I have no idea who PZJ is but he is beyond reproach for what he is doing on our behalf with negligible support.

If our support could unite and rid itself of the divisive and apathetic we could be a force to reckon with and go after the real enemies of Rangers.

A static protest of thousands of us outside of the City Chambers in George Square would bring this matter the attention and publicity it merits.

I dont think I am being pedantic. I just feel that the stuff he gets wrong takes away from the stuff he gets right. It is very easy to discredit him if he keeps stating certain things as fact when they are not.

I agree, PZJ is doing a fantastic job, but he needs to be careful he does not get sucked in tit for tat exchanges on twitter and concentrates on all the good work he has done so far and is still doing.

I am only offering my opinion on how he can best focus his efforts to get the result that he deserves.

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I dont think I am being pedantic. I just feel that the stuff he gets wrong takes away from the stuff he gets right. It is very easy to discredit him if he keeps stating certain things as fact when they are not.

I agree, PZJ is doing a fantastic job, but he needs to be careful he does not get sucked in tit for tat exchanges on twitter and concentrates on all the good work he has done so far and is still doing.

I am only offering my opinion on how he can best focus his efforts to get the result that he deserves.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion and I agree about Twitter spats, whoever they involve.

Remember this is Scotland where a prominent journalist claims Whyte had wealth off the radar. It doesn't seem to have damaged his credibility. If anything it has had the opposite effect.

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