Classless And Undignified.

[Ger77 742]

Don't look now but they're singing your favourite song on Sky sports 3.

[Wednesday Loyal 998]

Why do you think virtually nobody else in Britain sings it to confirm their Britishness?

Trying too hard. Missing the point of being British.

Was this verse wrote just for you

Lord grant that Marshal Wade

May by thy mighty aid

Victory bring.

May he sedition hush,

And like a torrent rush,

Rebellious Scots to crush.

God save the Queen

[Inigo 32,526]

More pish.

You seem to put people into a bracket, then call them weird!

Everyone has a different view of what their concept of being Brittish is. To isolate an individuals view then tar everyone with the same thoughts is quite subjective on YOUR part.

My views differ from many people in Great Britain, that's the thing that make me Brittish. The RIGHT to hold a different view.

Our forefathers fought and died for the RIGHTS that I hold dearly, and I'll celebrate those brave men in any way I think I should.

They gave me this right with their lives. I will thank them for all of mine.

Really? Which 'bracket' have I put you in?

Jesus. I'm not tarring anyone with anything other than to say singing that song is shit and inappropriate and to say that some people have a strange idea of being British and that their prioritisation of Britishness characteristics is strange.

These are observations based on specific posts made by people in this thread, not generalisations. There has been no isolating or tarring here. And I've already agreed that everything is subjective. Why people feel the need to keep pointing out the obvious is beyond me. Nobody is infringing your rights here either. This is a discussion, the conclusion of which is not a retraction of your right to sing a shite song if you want to. It's a discussion on whether you should, not whether you can.

Some, I would guess many, of those brave men would prefer that you celebrated the rights they defended for you, and them for their defence of them (we have other songs that do that), not the act of the killing, which many of them did not want to have to do, and certainly don't think it's worthy of a song. At a football match.

[Stoorie 1,088]

No, he doesn't have more sympathy for the Nazis. Since when was it a sympathy comparison? His loyalties lie firmly with the UK. You are forgetting the point that he lost 7 good friends, crewmates, that died and are buried in Hanover. You are in no position to question his sympathies, especially given the fact that the discussion has at no point referred to which people deserve the more sympathy. It's about the appropriateness of one song.

This was a specific argument in elation to the suitability of singing that song. Putting up a straw man argument of the relative sympathies of my grandfather won't deflect from that.

And seeing as you don't seem to get it, the airmen were not Nazis, they were soldiers. Soldiers on the wrong side, something no doubt most of them recognise.

Why do you suppose very few British people elsewhere feel the need to sing that kind of song to celebrate their Britishness? And you're not glorifying the victory. You're glorifying the deaths of individuals. If you REALLY wanted to celebrate that victory, do you think it would be that song you would sing? Or would it be a song about the overall British victory over Nazi Germany, rather than a few lads in fighters shooting down a few lads in bombers?

After serving twenty two years in the RAF, attending three or four memorial services a year, in uniform and out, losing friends and colleagues, and meet children who lost their fathers, I am in a position to comment.

You however, are not.

[crazy bob swollenbaws 1,865]

Why do you think virtually nobody else in Britain sings it to confirm their Britishness?

Trying too hard. Missing the point of being British.

pish. And like u are qualified to tell us all how to be british. Some others do sing it. England fans for one.

Look mate just admit it . U voted yes, hate the union and try at every opportunity to make salmonds butchers apron comment seem reasonable.

[Wednesday Loyal 998]

Really? Which 'bracket' have I put you in?

Jesus. I'm not tarring anyone with anything other than to say singing that song is shit and inappropriate and to say that some people have a strange idea of being British and that their prioritisation of Britishness characteristics is strange.

These are observations based on specific posts made by people in this thread, not generalisations. There has been no isolating or tarring here. And I've already agreed that everything is subjective. Why people feel the need to keep pointing out the obvious is beyond me. Nobody is infringing your rights here either. This is a discussion, the conclusion of which is not a retraction of your right to sing a shite song if you want to. It's a discussion on whether you should, not whether you can.

Some, I would guess many, of those brave men would prefer that you celebrated the rights they defended for you, and them for their defence of them (we have other songs that do that), not the act of the killing, which many of them did not want to have to do, and certainly don't think it's worthy of a song. At a football match.

you are after a reaction which you have got now fuck off

I have worked it out, you are a Russian spy at Uni in Dumfries checking out if true Brits give a fuck if Putin sends a few bombers over and if the RAF from Britain shoots them down

And will some football fans sing about it

[Inigo 32,526]

Why do you think virtually nobody else in Britain sings it to confirm their Britishness?

Trying too hard. Missing the point of being British.

Lord grant that Marshal Wade

May by thy mighty aid

Victory bring.

May he sedition hush,

And like a torrent rush,

Rebellious Scots to crush.

God save the Queen

Was this verse wrote just for you

A version that is never sung and that doesn't form part of the British official anthem, and never did? A verse that was appended to the original and is once again no longer in use?

'The 1836 article and other sources make it clear that this verse was not used soon after 1745, and certainly before the song became accepted as the British national anthem in the 1780s and 1790s.'

Interesting example to use.

[RFC Eagle 4,888]

No, he doesn't have more sympathy for the Nazis. Since when was it a sympathy comparison? His loyalties lie firmly with the UK. You are forgetting the point that he lost 7 good friends, crewmates, that died and are buried in Hanover. You are in no position to question his sympathies, especially given the fact that the discussion has at no point referred to which people deserve the more sympathy. It's about the appropriateness of one song.

This was a specific argument in elation to the suitability of singing that song. Putting up a straw man argument of the relative sympathies of my grandfather won't deflect from that.

And seeing as you don't seem to get it, the airmen were not Nazis, they were soldiers. Soldiers on the wrong side, something no doubt most of them recognise.

Why do you suppose very few British people elsewhere feel the need to sing that kind of song to celebrate their Britishness? And you're not glorifying the victory. You're glorifying the deaths of individuals. If you REALLY wanted to celebrate that victory, do you think it would be that song you would sing? Or would it be a song about the overall British victory over Nazi Germany, rather than a few lads in fighters shooting down a few lads in bombers?

That isn't quite true though:

During the early years of its existence, the NSFK conducted military aviation training in gliders and private airplanes. When Nazi Germany formed theLuftwaffe, many NSFK members transferred to it. As all such prior NSFK members were also Nazi Party members; this gave the new Luftwaffe a strong Nazi ideological base in contrast to the other branches of the German military,who were composed of "Old Guard" officers from the German aristocracy. They were also used to transport Jews and homosexuals into concentration camps

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Flyers_Corps

Whilst respecting your 95 year old grandfathers feelings you are making a judgement based on an individual opinion you couldn't possibly know how former Fighter Command veterans feel about the song celebrating their victory against an enemy seen as superior in equipment and experience.

That you seem not to have an understanding of the politics of the Luftwaffe at the time also undermines your argument.

Many people sing songs that aren't relevant to a football match (Stoke City sing Delilah, my home town team sing Unchained Melody) so that is another argument that doesn't really stand up to much scrutiny.

Its all about opinion, your choice is not to sing it others disagree.

[Inigo 32,526]

After serving twenty two years in the RAF, attending three or four memorial services a year, in uniform and out, losing friends and colleagues, and meet children who lost their fathers, I am in a position to comment.

You however, are not.

All of which I respect.

However, did you shoot down German bombers? Were you involved in that conflict? Would you think it a decent thing to do for the people that killed those fathers to sing songs about it at a football match? I wouldn't.

Everyone is in a position to comment. What was it you said about a 'right to hold a different view'?

[Stoorie 1,088]

A version that is never sung and that doesn't form part of the British official anthem, and never did? A verse that was appended to the original and is once again no longer in use?

'The 1836 article and other sources make it clear that this verse was not used soon after 1745, and certainly before the song became accepted as the British national anthem in the 1780s and 1790s.'

Interesting example to use.

Do you have Bobby Sands in your sig?

It can be construed as supporting terrorism.

Easy, eh?

[Wednesday Loyal 998]

A version that is never sung and that doesn't form part of the British official anthem, and never did? A verse that was appended to the original and is once again no longer in use?

'The 1836 article and other sources make it clear that this verse was not used soon after 1745, and certainly before the song became accepted as the British national anthem in the 1780s and 1790s.'

Interesting example to use.

Confirmed some cunt doing a Uni course

[Inigo 32,526]

That isn't quite true though:

During the early years of its existence, the NSFK conducted military aviation training in gliders and private airplanes. When Nazi Germany formed theLuftwaffe, many NSFK members transferred to it. As all such prior NSFK members were also Nazi Party members; this gave the new Luftwaffe a strong Nazi ideological base in contrast to the other branches of the German military,who were composed of "Old Guard" officers from the German aristocracy. They were also used to transport Jews and homosexuals into concentration camps

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Flyers_Corps

Whilst respecting your 95 year old grandfathers feelings you are making a judgement based on an individual opinion you couldn't possibly know how former Fighter Command veterans feel about the song celebrating their victory against an enemy seen as superior in equipment and experience.

That you seem not to have an understanding of the politics of the Luftwaffe at the time also undermines your argument.

Many people sing songs that aren't relevant to a football match (Stoke City sing Delilah, my home town team sing Unchained Melody) so that is another argument that doesn't really stand up to much scrutiny.

Its all about opinion, your choice is not to sing it others disagree.

'Ideological base'. The expansion of the luftwaffe pre and during the war meant that this is not the whole story, far from it. I take it you feel you know that every airman was a Nazi? Of course they were not.

As for what fliers felt; I, unlike most, know what at least one flier felt. And having listened to many discuss the matter, I think it's plainly clear that many would regard this kind of song as distasteful, especially those that discuss having shot aircraft down.

Of course it's down to opinion. I've said as much several times already.

[Inigo 32,526]

Confirmed some cunt doing a Uni course

Ha! I wish.

[Inigo 32,526]

are you at unie and doing degree on winding people up

No. I'm just naturally good at it.

[Wednesday Loyal 998]

All of which I respect.

However, did you shoot down German bombers? Were you involved in that conflict? Would you think it a decent thing to do for the people that killed those fathers to sing songs about it at a football match? I wouldn't.

Everyone is in a position to comment. What was it you said about a 'right to hold a different view'?

He might not have shot a German bomber down

BUT HE HAS JUST FUCKING SHOT YOU DOWN

[Stoorie 1,088]

All of which I respect.

However, did you shoot down German bombers? Were you involved in that conflict? Would you think it a decent thing to do for the people that killed those fathers to sing songs about it at a football match? I wouldn't.

Everyone is in a position to comment. What was it you said about a 'right to hold a different view'?

And you should hold that position dearly, and thank the people who gave up their lives to ensure you can.

Yet you want others to stop signing songs about the people who gave you that right?

Do as you say? No. That is the right of British people.

You seem to be against freedom of speech if it suits your point, shout down others and question their intelligence if they don't agree with you. Is that not what our brave fathers and grandfathers fought against? You can spout your outrage against a song all you like, but you know the men who gave their lives gave you that right. Be thankfull. Not a fucking moron.

[Inigo 32,526]

Do you have Bobby Sands in your sig?

It can be construed as supporting terrorism.

Easy, eh?

Do you even know what you're talking about anymore?

Anyway, back to things that are relevant to the discussion.

[Inigo 32,526]

He might not have shot a German bomber down

BUT HE HAS JUST FUCKING SHOT YOU DOWN

He really hasn't.

Your standards are kinda low in relation to what constitutes shooting someone down (figuratively).

[nachothelegend 1,932]

Fuck sake, can you not address the point I'm making rather than make it I to some drama about Stan ducking collymore or singing !!!! FFS

I'm ex Royal Air Force, and you find me embarrassing.

I served in Kosovo, Kuwait, Falklands,Belize, Germany 6 years defending against Russia and the IRA, and you think we shouldn't sing songs about the RAF.

We will sing about our forces proudly and no one will stop us.

12 years RAF Regt and 6 years Army.

[Stoorie 1,088]

In-I-go.

Is that Bobby sands in your sig?

Explain please, along with your other anti British ramblings.

[Inigo 32,526]

And you should hold that position dearly, and thank the people who gave up their lives to ensure you can.

Yet you want others to stop signing songs about the people who gave you that right?

Do as you say? No. That is the right of British people.

You seem to be against freedom of speech if it suits your point, shout down others and question their intelligence if they don't agree with you. Is that not what our brave fathers and grandfathers fought against? You can spout your outrage against a song all you like, but you know the men who gave their lives gave you that right. Be thankfull. Not a fucking moron.

Jesus. Thanking people does not = celebrating people being killed. You're not thanking anyone with that song. You're just being morbidly boastful.

This is a discussion. It IS freedom of speech!! What don't you get about that? I'm arguing why I think you should not sing it. How in any way have I been against freedom of speech in this discussion? Have I said I will somehow campaign to have you prevented from singing the song if you choose to? Of course I haven't. I don't think you're quite understanding what 'discussion' means.

I am thankful. I just see that there's infinitely better, less self-indulgent ways to show it.

[Rfc#1. 1,877]

Tbh we would be raging if the germans started singing 10 lancaster bombers or something similar.

[Inigo 32,526]

In-I-go.

Is that Bobby sands in your sig?

Explain please, along with your other anti British ramblings.

Yawn.

Attacking the man, eh? Well done.

[Inigo 32,526]

you are after a reaction which you have got now fuck off

I have worked it out, you are a Russian spy at Uni in Dumfries checking out if true Brits give a fuck if Putin sends a few bombers over and if the RAF from Britain shoots them down

And will some football fans sing about it

It's called a discussion. Try your best to understand that.

[RFC Eagle 4,888]

'Ideological base'. The expansion of the luftwaffe pre and during the war meant that this is not the whole story, far from it. I take it you feel you know that every airman was a Nazi? Of course they were not.

As for what fliers felt; I, unlike most, know what at least one flier felt. And having listened to many discuss the matter, I think it's plainly clear that many would regard this kind of song as distasteful, especially those that discuss having shot aircraft down.

Of course it's down to opinion. I've said as much several times already.

The core of the Luftwaffe had a strong Nazi ideology, much much more so than the Wehrmacht. Of course not all were Nazis but you cannot ignore the fact that there was a much higher proportion of Nazis than your suggestion would have us believe. I'd suggest that the diluting of Nazis in the ranks of the Luftwaffe was, in part, down to the shooting down of the Bombers that are sung about.

Strange that you make an assumption about my thoughts, it seems that sort of thing goes with that moral high ground you are seeking to claim? There will be those that find it distasteful but there will be those (I've spoken to one or two myself over the years) who see it as nothing to be offended by and that it is merely a song sung by young men who appreciate that their forefathers gave them the freedom to sing such songs.

Maybe it's a good thing that the song continues to be sung as it has provoked this debate which plays a part in remembering the sacrifice of that generation. I'd rather they sing it than forget about those who fought for our freedom.