Over coached or under managed.

[thetruthisootthere 150]

Continually hearing Pedro talking about positional football, lacking in third area, players understanding system he wants to play ect.Heard similar stuff from Warburton. I think we are over coaching our players and taking away from there natural ability, especially our forwards and centre mids, positions i believe you can't really coach. Forwards should have a natural ability to understand where they should be to receive a ball. Centre mids should be reading and understanding/directing  the game. Those players should be managed.

Defenders, goalies ,wide players I believe can be coached into playing certain systems. Opinions please.

[Blue Avenger 22,567]

Firstly, to be over coached, you need to have half a brain to take it all in.

Secondly, natural ability is what you can do with the ball at your feet and can you read what is in front of you?

If you are not gifted with good technical ability nor half a brain, you will need all the coaching you can get and might still never get there. I give you what played under MW. He had the right ideas in a possession game, but didn't have the players to execute it. He didn't appear to recognise this and made a cunt of it in his persistence and in his belligerence in ignoring the fact that the opposition had us sussed.

For may a year now we just didn't have the players with either the physical attributes, the technical ability or half a brain. Miller in his latter years, appears to be one of the very few switched on to read a game.

All managers want their team to play to a system and hold their shape. Make the right choices in a split second. Knowing when to release a ball and not to take the second touch.

You see many of the EPL teams and the Barca's of this world playing to the same system. One touch fast flowing football, then slowing a game down and then picking up the pace again. Holding up a ball, or sitting in and winning the ball then counter attacking at break neck speed. Goal, pick it out!

Much easier to coach these players of top and world class quality, but it is all relative, because here in this backwater, we are not up against top quality but a league full of journeymen, so if our players of lesser quality can just get it and are of better technical ability and posses the extra brain cell of the oppo, then who's not to say we lay waste to all before us? The elephant in the room of course is scum fc, who do have players of decent ability and a decent manager, but we do not yet know the strengths of the new signings, so we shall see.

Good coaching is recognising what is not working and changing it. MW, singularly failed in that. God knows what Pedro will be like! Let's hope he shocks us, in a good way.

[Alves70 393]

We definitely need to be more direct in our play.

The styles not changed that much since MW we still go from side to side. Said it before but we need 2 up front next season the 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 basically leave the main striker isolated too much.

[Dickie1963 2,352]

Good coaching is priceless. Have your team play to your strengths and know how to exploit your opponents weaknesses. Have a team pattern that is not overcomplicated and make sure you can defend set pieces and score with them at the other end. Make sure you have defenders that can defend and judge them on the number of goals they concede. Have a balance of skill and hard work in midfield and guys that can score up front. No daft free kicks - Windlass v Progres?- and no daft bookings. Make sure the team is fit and make training interesting. Being able to identify good players in your wage bracket that you can bring in is priceless. Keep your good players. 

[Blue Avenger 22,567]

2 hours ago, Alves70 said:

We definitely need to be more direct in our play.

The styles not changed that much since MW we still go from side to side. Said it before but we need 2 up front next season the 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 basically leave the main striker isolated too much.

Defo.

Back to front at pace and put the oppo under pressure. I say the scum's central defence is their biggest weakness, but we never really tested them being so slow and predictable going forward. We need more of the one touch stuff, working our butts off, off the ball going forward.

I think we may have shored up central defence and central midfield, but if Wallace doesn't up his defensive qualities and with Tav on the right of a back four, it may remain a weakness defensively. Get the ball forward to those who can create and just do the defensive work well.

[tannerall 25,935]

I think it's tto do with the dross of the last few years still having an influence in the team, so

Over-Rated and Under-Talented

Let's hope the new lot can have a huge effect on our standard.

[Blue Avenger 22,567]

2 minutes ago, Dickie1963 said:

Good coaching is priceless. Have your team play to your strengths and know how to exploit your opponents weaknesses. Have a team pattern that is not overcomplicated and make sure you can defend set pieces and score with them at the other end. Make sure you have defenders that can defend and judge them on the number of goals they concede. Have a balance of skill and hard work in midfield and guys that can score up front. No daft free kicks - Windlass v Progres?- and no daft bookings. Make sure the team is fit and make training interesting. Being able to identify good players in your wage bracket that you can bring in is priceless. Keep your good players. 

Sadly we weren't over endowed with good players, but yes the best of what we had and who we have signed. Some of the youngsters also looked promises, so don't be afraid to blood them further. I do struggle with Windass. A bit of a headless chicken for me and little composure. As well as keeping the system simple, players must learn to keep their game simple. Just don't hold on to the ball too long and make the simple one touch pass then move on to make a play, with others working their butts off around to give you the angle. I see many players running around, but not giving the player in possesion an angle to make the pass and they end up under pressure and lose the ball. There is something in the Scottish game and in the lesser players psyche that stops them doing this. World class players know when to pass and when to hold, but getting a Scottish player to release a ball at the right moment is a rarity. 

[Dickie1963 2,352]

1 hour ago, Blue Avenger said:

Sadly we weren't over endowed with good players, but yes the best of what we had and who we have signed. Some of the youngsters also looked promises, so don't be afraid to blood them further. I do struggle with Windass. A bit of a headless chicken for me and little composure. As well as keeping the system simple, players must learn to keep their game simple. Just don't hold on to the ball too long and make the simple one touch pass then move on to make a play, with others working their butts off around to give you the angle. I see many players running around, but not giving the player in possesion an angle to make the pass and they end up under pressure and lose the ball. There is something in the Scottish game and in the lesser players psyche that stops them doing this. World class players know when to pass and when to hold, but getting a Scottish player to release a ball at the right moment is a rarity. 

Agree with all you say

[Bad Robot 21,132]

I agree that you can't really improve a forward as most of his work is down to his own mentality as a good forward relies on his instinct and doesn't really think on the ball. He will mostly get himself in the danger area and will get the shot net bound regardless where the opposition is.  If he doesn't kick with both feet (which is a must), that can be learned but it just takes practice both in training and during match time and having no fear with just swinging the weaker foot. As for the attacking mid, yes maybe they can be coached a little but they should be responding to the strikers movements and putting the ball either directly on the striker or a yard in front so the striker can run onto it and get it under control with one touch, in his stride. 

[Thewhitesettler 2,711]

Our players are not 10 year old kids, they're adults. They should be able to adapt to any system a coach wants them to play. Some players play better in one system than another, the coaches job is to find a way to play that suits the players he has at the club, or get rid of those that can't play in the system, and go out, and buy players that do fit into his system. 

I've always believed that a player should be able to play in a number of different positions, giving the coaching staff the job of finding your best position in the team. I think some young Dutch players, when playing the game play in numerous positions during practice games. That's possibly why a lot of their players are good with the ball at their feet, no matter what position they play in. They're football players, and should do training with the ball at their feet, to improve their skills, and give them confidence, when they've got the ball during a real game. They should also be taught how to 'read' a game, especially when the opposition have the ball. Some players do this a lot better than others. Forwards who are always in the right position, are there because they can read the game. Midfielders are possibly the most important players who should be able read the game, when team mates have the ball, and when opponents have the ball. Good readers of the game, that played for us,IMHO, are Barry Ferguson, and Kevin Thomson, in recent years. They always wanted the ball, and knew what to do with it, when they had it, and were good at being in the right position to break down an opposition attack, before it even got near the goals. The one thing you can't coach is instinct, players either have this, or not. There are plenty of forward players who've not been the best players in the world, to put it nicely, but know where the goals are through instinct. Kris Boyd, is the one player that springs to mind as an example of a player that isn't the most gifted, skillfully, but has a strikers instinct to be in the right place, at the right time to score the goals. Kenny Miller is relying more on his instinct, as a striker, than his pace in games as he gets older.

[Turnberry18 3,204]

Brian Clough possibly had the right idea when he once said his instructions to his players were "you get the ball, you pass it to a red shirt".  And he also said "there's a lot been written about tactics by people who couldn't win at dominoes". Clough would have known more than most people, and certainly reading about his management style it appears to have been the case, that the primary role of a manager is to get the best out of his players. In that respect tactics are possibly overdone.
 

[The Specky Forum Organiser 64,384]

Coaching- 4-4-2, when one full back goes the other stays, one ball winner in the middle, one playmaker, 2 out and out wingers, a target man and a poacher. .

Man management- Win

Geez the job

[thetruthisootthere 150]

8 minutes ago, Turnberry18 said:

Brian Clough possibly had the right idea when he once said his instructions to his players were "you get the ball, you pass it to a red shirt".  And he also said "there's a lot been written about tactics by people who couldn't win at dominoes". Clough would have known more than most people, and certainly reading about his management style it appears to have been the case, that the primary role of a manager is to get the best out of his players. In that respect tactics are possibly overdone.
 

Agreed.

[thetruthisootthere 150]

5 minutes ago, Frank Harrison said:

Coaching- 4-4-2, when one full back goes the other stays, one ball winner in the middle, one playmaker, 2 out and out wingers, a target man and a poacher. .

Man management- Win

Geez the job

Yours by Christmas. 

[The Specky Forum Organiser 64,384]

Just now, thetruthisootthere said:

Yours by Christmas. 

BUT I WANT IT NOW

[thetruthisootthere 150]

Just now, Frank Harrison said:

BUT I WANT IT NOW

Ffs give him at least one more friendly.

[jackrfc95 4,255]

We don't have anyone in the final third with any natural ability who could flourish if left alone. 

[Turnberry18 3,204]

12 hours ago, Frank Harrison said:

Coaching- 4-4-2, when one full back goes the other stays, one ball winner in the middle, one playmaker, 2 out and out wingers, a target man and a poacher. .

Man management- Win

Geez the job

Would your two out and out wingers be purely wingers, in that they would stick to the wing and nothing else?

[The Specky Forum Organiser 64,384]

2 minutes ago, Turnberry18 said:

Would your two out and out wingers be purely wingers, in that they would stick to the wing and nothing else?

Yes.

[Turnberry18 3,204]

1 minute ago, Frank Harrison said:

Yes.

In today's game? Not sure about that. Years ago maybe, but the superior fitness of players that midfield of yours would be exploited!

[The Specky Forum Organiser 64,384]

1 minute ago, Turnberry18 said:

In today's game? Not sure about that. Years ago maybe, but the superior fitness of players that midfield of yours would be exploited!

At a higher level maybe, at this level players don't have the technical ability.

[K.A.I 36,183]

Probably both - I think his methods are lost in over elaborate ideas and fancy talk but his man management skills are also lacking 

no one really knows for sure tho we can only guess 

[He's blue he's white 717]

Always depends on the ability of the manager, MW failed to get the best out if the poor squad he assembled.  Over coaching a player needs two factors, 

1. The manager doesn't recognise natural ability and therefore stifles the players main assets of attacking in the final third say - but rather substite/dilute that for a more defensive display.

2. The player is weak and allows their main asset to be compromised - thus losing confidance, belief and heart (McKay).

 

Football is easy and tactics should be straightforward - shite talkers complicate it.

Pedro is gonna be worse than MW.

[Turnberry18 3,204]

Just now, Frank Harrison said:

At a higher level maybe, at this level players don't have the technical ability.

I actually like your idea, and wish football was still played that way. If you look at old clips of football then there is more excitement than there is now.

[Big Al 55 9,241]

Good coaching can improve even the best players in the world.

Didn't we complain about lack of coaching from McCoist?

I have severe concerns over PC, however he needs some time at least.