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On 20/03/2021 at 11:45, Inigo said:

Mate, that's rubbish. It would be enough. Two witnesses that a court believes are credible would be regarded as sufficient to convict.

Add to that the visual evidence we have in this case of the conduct of the Prague player and the reaction of Kamara, as well as the credibility of their published defence, and there's bags of evidence.

If Glen decided to sue, I think his lawyers would build a good case. If he then won the case UEFA would be forced to take action. Mark McCammon was the first footballer to sue for race related crimes

Legal guidance link 

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/racist-and-religious-hate-crime-prosecution-guidance

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Solidarity with Glen. Hope the scum gets hammered.    

Superb to see 

Imagine Rashford or Sterling getting racially abused and a pundit going on 606 and saying where’s the evidence. It simply wouldn’t happen.

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2 minutes ago, Inigo said:

The evidence it occurred is the two credible witness statements.

Christ, convictions can happen based on one credible witness and corroborating circumstantial stuff.

A crime doesn't have to be caught on CCTV or a microphone to be regarded as having occurred. Witness statements can be regarded as as valid as footage or DNA evidence or whatever. In the case you mention, if the court believed the two women, yes, it'd be enough to convict. Easily. You're simply wrong here, mate.

I’m happy to hold my hand up and admit that.

I’m kinda torn because I believe Kamara and I hope this guy does get caught. But, on the other hand, it concerns me a little that two people could say they heard me say something and if they acted angrily enough that’d be enough to get me a criminal conviction even if I didn’t say it.

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50 minutes ago, BigDak said:

Is your last paragraph one of those sneaky attacks where you throw an accusation at someone but when they pick up on it you stand back and say “no, that must just be your guilty conscience” because you haven’t outright accused me?

OK, I retract my statement saying it’s ALL conjecture. That’s not what I meant. But I’m sure you will agree that only the statements from Kamara and Zungu (which I believe) are suitable evidence that Kudela did this - for now at least.

So I’ll admit my initial wording re: conjecture was stupid as I didn’t mean everything was conjecture. But what else was bollocks?

The picture I saw initially of those Slavia scum bags  was them holding up a banner with “Kamara - just a n” and the rest was blanked out. Now it didn’t take any imagination to assume what was actually written and this turned out to be true from the full picture later released. But if it turned out that the banner hadn’t said that then we’d all have jumped to conclusions albeit based on common sense and what was likely.

So the comparison with Kudela is that aside from the statements from Kamara and Zungu, the other evidence is Kamara’s reaction, the over the top statements from Slavia and the bullshit story put forward by Kudela (“hey, fucking guy”) which is so implausible that it seems like an outright lie. 

From all of that I believe he did say it. But I don’t want to be a hypocrite and if it was one of our players accused of that, or even me, then I’d want something more than the testimony of another person before ruining someone’s life.

The credibility of the two should/would be taken into account but it won’t (and arguably shouldn’t) be enough to convict.

I actually don’t know what we’re debating here because we both believe Kudela said it and hope for further evidence to come out. I’ve never once said I don’t think he said it.

A second witness is corroborating evidence as far as I’m concerned.

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1 minute ago, BigDak said:

I’m happy to hold my hand up and admit that.

I’m kinda torn because I believe Kamara and I hope this guy does get caught. But, on the other hand, it concerns me a little that two people could say they heard me say something and if they acted angrily enough that’d be enough to get me a criminal conviction even if I didn’t say it.

The saving grace is that courts are normally pretty good at exposing folk that have dubious credibility.

 

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1 hour ago, BigDak said:

Is your last paragraph one of those sneaky attacks where you throw an accusation at someone but when they pick up on it you stand back and say “no, that must just be your guilty conscience” because you haven’t outright accused me?

OK, I retract my statement saying it’s ALL conjecture. That’s not what I meant. But I’m sure you will agree that only the statements from Kamara and Zungu (which I believe) are suitable evidence that Kudela did this - for now at least.

So I’ll admit my initial wording re: conjecture was stupid as I didn’t mean everything was conjecture. But what else was bollocks?

The picture I saw initially of those Slavia scum bags  was them holding up a banner with “Kamara - just a n” and the rest was blanked out. Now it didn’t take any imagination to assume what was actually written and this turned out to be true from the full picture later released. But if it turned out that the banner hadn’t said that then we’d all have jumped to conclusions albeit based on common sense and what was likely.

So the comparison with Kudela is that aside from the statements from Kamara and Zungu, the other evidence is Kamara’s reaction, the over the top statements from Slavia and the bullshit story put forward by Kudela (“hey, fucking guy”) which is so implausible that it seems like an outright lie. 

From all of that I believe he did say it. But I don’t want to be a hypocrite and if it was one of our players accused of that, or even me, then I’d want something more than the testimony of another person before ruining someone’s life.

The credibility of the two should/would be taken into account but it won’t (and arguably shouldn’t) be enough to convict.

I actually don’t know what we’re debating here because we both believe Kudela said it and hope for further evidence to come out. I’ve never once said I don’t think he said it.

No, it's me saying that your suggestion I'm motivated by virtue signalling is nonsense, as I would think the same thing even if I was motivated by malice signalling. Nothing to do with you.

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29 minutes ago, folkestoneger said:

I don’t think the club should be held responsible for a players actions unless it can be shown they encouraged the behavior. While defending their player looks bad it is what most clubs would do until a charge was proven. If it is and they continue to support the player then that is a different matter

Their reaction to this shows they do.

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14 hours ago, GA1972 said:

Michael Stewart makes me sick 

‘it turns out nothing happened at Ross County’ he said. There’s no way you can ever convince me that Gardyne didn’t say something discriminatory to one of our players that day. We gave County the chance to get their own house in order after that incident and they chose to sweep it under the carpet 

Funnily enough a player down South has been banned for 7 games for using homophobic language. 
 

All inclusive, progressive Scotland anything goes against Rangers players it seems

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44 minutes ago, BigDak said:

I’m happy to hold my hand up and admit that.

I’m kinda torn because I believe Kamara and I hope this guy does get caught. But, on the other hand, it concerns me a little that two people could say they heard me say something and if they acted angrily enough that’d be enough to get me a criminal conviction even if I didn’t say it.

That’s how the law works irrespective of temperament!

If two people approached a police officer and angrily pointed out criminal wrongdoing (making an allegation), the officer would, if there were a power of arrest take that suspect into custody (on certain crimes after the accuser has said what happened in the presence of the suspect). The copper wouldn’t give a toss how angry a maligned person is, they would calm them down to get the facts, FACT.

Arrest does not assume guilt, being charged does not assume guilt - merely that there is a good chance of a successful prosecution. As I said on a different topic if some one is charged with a crime, that is when the case begins to be built for trial. Being charged with a crime is just the beginning.

What you are saying is illogical on so many levels, lets take it that you saw a man cover his mouth with his hand and said something of a sexual nature into a woman’s ear and she reacted angrily, are you saying her anger negates the need for an investigation?  Or are you saying nothing should be done as he had his hand over his mouth and it couldn’t be seen even though you heard it?

Kamara and Zungu clearly heard what was said and made the allegation to match officials, they chose to ignore this as they appear to be from your strange wee world.

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57 minutes ago, BigDak said:

I don’t believe it would be due to the fact there is no evidence that the crime actually occurred.

The problem here is that apart from Kamara and Zungu saying so there’s no evidence of the crime actually occurring. The rest of the arguments being put forward are circumstantial/conjecture.

Its like if a woman accused a man of rape and her friend said she seen it too. They would still need evidence of the rape actually having happened.

I might be wrong. Maybe they’ll use some sort of reasonableness test but I still don’t know if it’s strong enough evidence for two people to say they heard him say it.

If he had previous for doing something like this and this was the 4th time he’d been accused then that might do it.

You are both wrong, and a fucking idiot.

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21 minutes ago, Moody Blue Legend said:

Over half an hour in on Football Focus and not a mention yet.  As said before, any player playing in Europe for an English team and they'd be all over it.  Might still mention it but that'll be soundbite pish.  

I hoped that with Gerrard being so outspoken about it and tweets from e.g. Anton Ferdinand, they would have given it some priority.

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That statement is 1st class, he states what was said and calls out the lying Czech and throws the ball firmly into Uefa's court. It is now up to them to stamp down, once and for all, on racism. Rangers, from the top down, will be looking for the appropriate punishment to be given and I think that should a lenient punishment be given, Rangers will fight on until it is. 

The world is watching Uefa, get it right or you will be tainted forever.

 

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1 hour ago, Bad Robot said:

@Blue Nosed Babe I’m of the believe that 2 witness statements are the evidence along with the cupping of the hand but maybe our resident lawyer can clarify 

The 2 witnesses can speak to the actual statement. The cupping of hand and reactions are adminicles of evidence that can allow the court to infer the statement was made and enhances the credibility of the 2 witnesses.

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Some of their players must torn as to what to do.

If they dont speak out then they cant really say anything  in the future about the hateful bile if it it is directed at them in the future.

If they do, I'd reckon they would be out of a job given their clubs' reaction so far.

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The silence from the S.F.A.,S.P.F.L and the P.F.A. president Fraser Wishart is astonishing. Where is the support or even acknowledgement of what happened on Thursday. Shame on all of them, you have to ask yourself if this had happened to a celtic player they would be screaming from the rooftops, demanding justice. 

Is it down to the team Glen plays for that causes their silence, my guess is yes as they can not be seen to show any support to Rangers.

Fair play to Livingstone. 

 

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Apologies if highlighted before but what did  Kudela get booked for?

I get that Goldson’s will be aggressive nature or something similar but with the exception of the initial action, Kudela just runs away like a cowardly shitebag iirc.

Would be interesting to question the ref on why he issued him a yellow card, hope something in the report.

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1 minute ago, .Williamson. said:

Makes a post asking fans to stop and then goes on to post nothing can destroy the love between them :confused:

This is one of the black players for Slavia btw 

Part of the problem, I know they’re stuck between a rock and a hard place these guys but one of them needs to have the balls to stand up to this disgusting behaviour. 

I wonder if his black team mates feel the same? 

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29 minutes ago, .Williamson. said:

Makes a post asking fans to stop and then goes on to post nothing can destroy the love between them :confused:

This is one of the black players for Slavia btw 

Wow, honestly fucking wow.

Just read most of the thread and their fans are standing by his statement but playing the ‘prove it’ card.

Plenty of bears on giving them it tight.

 

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3 hours ago, BigDak said:

Oh, here we go another self-righteous virtue signaler. Jumping off at the deep end.

I’ve explicitly stated twice that I  100% believe he said it. But just because you, me and everyone else believes he did it, and it seems extremely unlikely that he didn’t say it, that doesn’t mean we can condemn him without concrete evidence.

This is a serious allegation levelled at this guy. And, once again, for your sake, I believe he did say that to Kamara. But right now the evidence (as credible as it is) is two guys saying he did it and one guy saying he didn’t. Given the serious repercussions for him I would think that any institution, if it were ever to feel confident in its conviction, would need more than that.

I would’ve thought someone like you would appreciate due process no matter what the crime. But does that just go out the door because it’s a disgusting racist comment so that you can virtue signal?

For the third time, I believe he did it, he’s a piece of shit for saying it, and sincerely hope someone on his team comes out and says he heard it as well so that he can get punished for it. But I just think convicting someone on the basis of two people saying they heard him say it is dangerous ground.

You were on sportsound yesterday weren’t you?  You and Richard Foster. 

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