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Angus1965
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12 minutes ago, Bluepeter9 said:

Free prescriptions, free university education are probably a decent start. 

I will be shocked if free prescriptions are still a thing in 3 / 5 years max without independence. 
 

I can guarantee they will be gone immediately if we we’re to be independent. 
 

our fiscal deficit is running at 22%! The maximum allowed in the eu is 3% so that along with the Catalonia issue seals the issue about EU membership it won’t happen 

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3 minutes ago, AGC123 said:

I will be shocked if free prescriptions are still a thing in 3 / 5 years max without independence. 
 

I can guarantee they will be gone immediately if we we’re to be independent. 
 

our fiscal deficit is running at 22%! The maximum allowed in the eu is 3% so that along with the Catalonia issue seals the issue about EU membership it won’t happen 

In England (the figures are a few years old admittedly) 89.7% of prescriptions were issued without charge (FREE, for the hard of thinking) at the point of dispensing.

https://digital.nhs.uk/data-and-information/publications/statistical/prescriptions-dispensed-in-the-community/prescriptions-dispensed-in-the-community-statistics-for-england-2005-2015

In a future Indy🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿, if Mike Russell and his disciples don’t push through their privatised health system, 🇺🇸 Companies like IHI will.

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8 hours ago, Bluepeter9 said:

Free prescriptions, free university education are probably a decent start. 

 

8 hours ago, Ayrshire Blue said:

But prescriptions are not actually FREE - do you think big pharmaceutical companies give it to Scotland for FREE. It has to be paid for, by revenue generated, meaning that money is cut from elsewhere, like drug rehab, etc leading to higher drug deaths.

‘Free’ Uni places have been absolutely slashed to allow fee paying students access to Unis - and again, it was never actually FREE, it was paid for.

You've really swallowed the Snat book of absolute pish & drivel if you believe it’s all FREE

If we go back a bit, there were no fees to be paid by UK students in the UK for university education. University education was considered to be free (we can have the ‘nothing is free’ argument all day long). Then fees were directly introduced in the other 3 UK countries but not in Scotland for Scottish students. If uni education was deemed to be free (free at source) before, then it still is now.

Thats is the same for prescriptions for a large part of the Scottish population, and it’s the same for the removal of tolls on bridges. These things still need to be paid for, but are regarded as ‘free’, if ‘free at source’.

Another example, would be our ‘free’ education system - it obviously needs paid for, but is deemed to be free.

A university education should be free (first degree, at least, anyway), and it’s to the credit of the SNP, that it still is.

Just about everything else they do is a cluster fuck, right enough.

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1 minute ago, left winger said:

 

If we go back a bit, there were no fees to be paid by UK students in the UK for university education. University education was considered to be free (we can have the ‘nothing is free’ argument all day long). Then fees were directly introduced in the other 3 UK countries but not in Scotland for Scottish students. If uni education was deemed to be free (free at source) before, then it still is now.

Thats is the same for prescriptions for a large part of the Scottish population, and it’s the same for the removal of tolls on bridges. These things still need to be paid for, but are regarded as ‘free’, if ‘free at source’.

Another example, would be our ‘free’ education system - it obviously needs paid for, but is deemed to be free.

A university education should be free (first degree, at least, anyway), and it’s to the credit of the SNP, that it still is.

Just about everything else they do is a cluster fuck, right enough.

What percentage of students in Scottish Unis do stem subjects and how many do worthless courses that won’t lead to a job. 

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1 minute ago, They Gnu said:

What percentage of students in Scottish Unis do stem subjects and how many do worthless courses that won’t lead to a job. 

For the purposes of this discussion I really don’t care. The point was made regarding free university education. It exists in Scotland for Scottish students. That is a fact. If you are a Scottish child going to a Scottish university you will come out of your university education with about £30k or £40k (depending on course length) less debt than a student from the other UK countries.

I personally think it’s a good thing that we do not, in this country, think it’s a good idea to saddle our young people with such debt, just so they can get an education and chance of a decent job. The SNP have this right. 

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9 minutes ago, left winger said:

For the purposes of this discussion I really don’t care. The point was made regarding free university education. It exists in Scotland for Scottish students. That is a fact. If you are a Scottish child going to a Scottish university you will come out of your university education with about £30k or £40k (depending on course length) less debt than a student from the other UK countries.

I personally think it’s a good thing that we do not, in this country, think it’s a good idea to saddle our young people with such debt, just so they can get an education and chance of a decent job. The SNP have this right. 

To be fair, student loan debt in the UK is more like a graduate tax than an actual loan debt. It has virtually no impact on you at all unless you earn enough to pay the 9% of what you earn over the threshold. It’s not going to stop you getting credit or a mortgage, mess up your credit rating, or end up with bailiffs at the door. If you don’t pay it in time it just gets written off. It’s the most favourable loan anyone can get. 

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5 minutes ago, Johnstone Burgh said:

To be fair, student loan debt in the UK is more like a graduate tax than an actual loan debt. It has virtually no impact on you at all unless you earn enough to pay the 9% of what you earn over the threshold. It’s not going to stop you getting credit or a mortgage, mess up your credit rating, or end up with bailiffs at the door. If you don’t pay it in time it just gets written off. It’s the most favourable loan anyone can get. 

See your last sentence there - ‘it’s the most favourable loan anyone can get’ - that makes it a debt. You can argue to your heart’s content, but it is a debt. And a 21 year old coming out of uni, with potentially £40k approx debt from uni fees is wrong, imo. The SNP don’t levy that debt. Fair play to them.

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7 minutes ago, left winger said:

See your last sentence there - ‘it’s the most favourable loan anyone can get’ - that makes it a debt. You can argue to your heart’s content, but it is a debt. And a 21 year old coming out of uni, with potentially £40k approx debt from uni fees is wrong, imo. The SNP don’t levy that debt. Fair play to them.

Yes, effectively it’s a debt - that is paid off at a reasonable rate OR can be written off completely. Every analyst will say that it is a ‘debt’ well worth taking on, and when earning over £27,295 P.A. the repayment is only 9% P.A. of anything earned above this figure.

Scotland doesn’t ‘charge’ this (for Scottish students, IF they can actually get accepted into Uni which is proving to be getting more difficult each year) compared to rUK BUT Scotland is also the highest taxed of the four countries, with other crucial services declining - remember, Uni education isn’t FREE, it never was no matter what word salad is used, but in Scotland some people do get it for nothing!

It suits the Snat narrative - FREE education, FREE prescriptions, FREE bridges, FREE buses for over 60s, but looking through the fog of the ‘socialist state’, the reality is higher taxes, crucial services slashed, public service cuts, public sector job cuts, maintenance being deferred, to PAY FOR THE FREE STUFF.

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@Ayrshire Blue ok, so you put nearly all my own points across and you and others have rightly highlighted the absolute waste of money in our system. Our ability to borrow on capital, our tax raising power (I think it’s now at about 38% that we can raise to use on our own) throw in the wasted millions on health with a top heavy management system and the education attainment gap growing steady despite record investment and finally our embarrassment regarding drug deaths. 
All - despite record amounts of devolved powers and available funds. 
 

What you are really doing is highlighting the SNP’s ability to not govern correctly  

but

imagine having a party in place that could govern correctly - in an independent Scotland.  
 

You made a case for independence but it’s clouded by the fact it’s the SNP running the country rather than a more competent party at the reins  

 

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1 minute ago, Ayrshire Blue said:

Yes, effectively it’s a debt - that is paid off at a reasonable rate OR can be written off completely. Every analyst will say that it is a ‘debt’ well worth taking on, and when earning over £27,295 P.A. the repayment is only 9% P.A. of anything earned above this figure.

Scotland doesn’t ‘charge’ this (for Scottish students, IF they can actually get accepted into Uni which is proving to be getting more difficult each year) compared to rUK BUT Scotland is also the highest taxed of the four countries, with other crucial services declining - remember, Uni education isn’t FREE, it never was no matter what word salad is used, but in Scotland some people do get it for nothing!

It suits the Snat narrative - FREE education, FREE prescriptions, FREE bridges, FREE buses for over 60s, but looking through the fog of the ‘socialist state’, the reality is higher taxes, crucial services slashed, public service cuts, public sector job cuts, maintenance being deferred, to PAY FOR THE FREE STUFF.

A university education was regarded as free (free at source) prior to the recent charging of tuition fees. That isn’t a ‘word salad’. That is what happened and it was accepted as free.

Now if you are a Scottish student in Scotland you get that education FREE (see I can do capital letters as well). You do not in the other UK countries. It may well be a debt ‘well worth taking on’, but it is a debt nonetheless and I haven’t heard why it’s a good idea to give uni students thousands of pounds worth of debt, at the start of their adult life.

I’m still with them on this.

 

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2 minutes ago, KeyserSoze said:

@Ayrshire Blue ok, so you put nearly all my own points across and you and others have rightly highlighted the absolute waste of money in our system. Our ability to borrow on capital, our tax raising power (I think it’s now at about 38% that we can raise to use on our own) throw in the wasted millions on health with a top heavy management system and the education attainment gap growing steady despite record investment and finally our embarrassment regarding drug deaths. 
All - despite record amounts of devolved powers and available funds. 
 

What you are really doing is highlighting the SNP’s ability to not govern correctly  

but

imagine having a party in place that could govern correctly - in an independent Scotland.  
 

You made a case for independence but it’s clouded by the fact it’s the SNP running the country rather than a more competent party at the reins  

 

Don’t make the mistake of thinking I’ve made a case for independence - I’ve made a case for remaining in the Union of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.

There’s no doubt the snp are incompetent BUT tell me what sort of ‘model’ a competent Indy party would look like? Indendent Scottish Labour, an Independent Conservative & Unionist party, the Lib-Dems, the Greens?

 

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8 minutes ago, left winger said:

A university education was regarded as free (free at source) prior to the recent charging of tuition fees. That isn’t a ‘word salad’. That is what happened and it was accepted as free.

Now if you are a Scottish student in Scotland you get that education FREE (see I can do capital letters as well). You do not in the other UK countries. It may well be a debt ‘well worth taking on’, but it is a debt nonetheless and I haven’t heard why it’s a good idea to give uni students thousands of pounds worth of debt, at the start of their adult life.

I’m still with them on this.

 

Maybe YOU thought or regarded it FREE, even prior to charging fees, but I think most people knew it had to be paid for and didn’t consider it FREE - I know that I understood the economics of it and that education, like health, etc had a huge cost that has to be paid for.

You carry on supporting that particular ideology - as long as you accept higher taxes, cuts in services, etc.

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26 minutes ago, Ayrshire Blue said:

Maybe YOU thought or regarded it FREE, even prior to charging fees, but I think most people knew it had to be paid for and didn’t consider it FREE - I know that I understood the economics of it and that education, like health, etc had a huge cost that has to be paid for.

You carry on supporting that particular ideology - as long as you accept higher taxes, cuts in services, etc.

We've got the best educated service industry in the UK.
How many young people with degrees do you hear of,are working in coffee shops,bars,restaurants and even big macs. 
There are not enough jobs to go round in brigadoom,which i can absolutely 100% guarantee will be compounded in a bad divorce.
It's crazy to think you are being accused of making a case for independance.  

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56 minutes ago, Ayrshire Blue said:

Don’t make the mistake of thinking I’ve made a case for independence - I’ve made a case for remaining in the Union of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.

There’s no doubt the snp are incompetent BUT tell me what sort of ‘model’ a competent Indy party would look like? Indendent Scottish Labour, an Independent Conservative & Unionist party, the Lib-Dems, the Greens?

 

I was pointing out that a competent government could manage our finances better by highlighting the current cash available. 
 

The difficulty is finding a competent government. 
 

I bet you the need for independence would be much greater if this country was managed much much better. 
Education was gold standard, Health was gold standard etc. The place was a better place to prosper. 
 

different way of looking at it. 

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1 hour ago, Ayrshire Blue said:

Maybe YOU thought or regarded it FREE, even prior to charging fees, but I think most people knew it had to be paid for and didn’t consider it FREE - I know that I understood the economics of it and that education, like health, etc had a huge cost that has to be paid for.

You carry on supporting that particular ideology - as long as you accept higher taxes, cuts in services, etc.

Oooooh, capital letters again!!!!

University education was regarded as free. We all know that. And it still is, in Scotland - which it is, at source. Just like health, as you covered there. When our young people walk into a lecture they are not charged in this country. They are in England. When we walk into the emergency department we are not charged.

And I will continue supporting that ideology. It’s an ideology that believes that young people shouldn’t be saddled with huge amounts of debt, just to get a good education.

Re higher taxes - I potentially support that, but a different approach may be more beneficial.  Cuts in services? I think they still happen in countries which charge for university education? Don’t they? And that’s down to the incompetence and weakness of government - here and elsewhere.

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10 minutes ago, left winger said:

Oooooh, capital letters again!!!!

University education was regarded as free. We all know that. And it still is, in Scotland - which it is, at source. Just like health, as you covered there. When our young people walk into a lecture they are not charged in this country. They are in England. When we walk into the emergency department we are not charged.

And I will continue supporting that ideology. It’s an ideology that believes that young people shouldn’t be saddled with huge amounts of debt, just to get a good education.

Re higher taxes - I potentially support that, but a different approach may be more beneficial.  Cuts in services? I think they still happen in countries which charge for university education? Don’t they? And that’s down to the incompetence and weakness of government - here and elsewhere.

As I said, maybe you regarded Uni education as free but most people knew it came with a cost - it’s not a difficult concept to grasp, it costs money to educate, whether that’s primary, secondary or Uni level.

I’ve never heard of a young person in England being charged when they walk into a lecture room - it was my understanding they were charged 9% of the difference between their salary and the £27,295 on completion. For some, they never pay back a penny, for the eventual higher earners they contribute to the system, that includes supporting other students learning.

I’m well aware that in the UK, we’re not charged on entering A&E but there is a cost to it which ultimately, the taxpayer/NI meets. As we live longer & medical technology continues to improve, the costs are going to spiral upwards. Already, look at the state of the SNHS, QEUH, Edinburgh Sick Kids, Edinburgh Eye Hospital, nursing numbers falling, ambulance service, care homes, etc. All because the funding isn’t there to support it properly & incompetence - even leading Snats have advocated privatising the SNHS (something I don’t agree with) and the snp administration has already involved the US giant, IHI.

In Scotland, we’ve higher tax thresholds than rUK, with proportionally less tax payers contributing at the lower rates of tax. To meet these demands currently the Snats have slashed spending elsewhere - think social care, drug & alcohol rehab, etc. and that’s with rUK financial assistance - yes, other countries have tightened their belts, cutting services but not to the extent that the Snats have, making Scotland the world leader in drug deaths, European leader in the lowest life expectancy league, falling education, child poverty, etc.

Christ knows what rate of tax we’d be exposed too, to keep everything FREE in an Indy 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 🤔

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4 hours ago, They Gnu said:

What percentage of students in Scottish Unis do stem subjects and how many do worthless courses that won’t lead to a job. 

And how much has the student population increased (for the native population). Access to a University education used to be something extraordinary that you had to really earn. Nowadays it feels like it's viewed as a right and that "everyone deserves a chance" irrespective of their cognitive ability to study at that level.

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