miltonbank

Wertp72 My information comes from where exactly those who say the club became "official", "legal", "established", "held their first agm" etc etc in 1873 does not - the records of the time. Daddy Dunlop, SFA annuals, Rangers member cards, newspaper reports, SFA history books, player autobiographies (Archie Steel, for example) all say 1872. There is absolutely no significance given in any of these early records to the 1873 date. Robert McElroy's Complete Record is an outstanding book and well researched, but there's just one wee error when he states the club were formed in February 1872. There's no evidence to back this up and I suspect it was just a wee arithmetic slip when the book was written. Daddy Dunlop, writing as True Blue in the SFA annual of the early 1880s, looked back and recalled the first Rangers game against Callander was played in May 1872, "some two months after talks first began in West End Park to form the club" (or words to that effect). ie two months before May 1872 is March, not February. Just a month, I know, but historical accuracy is very important. Again, I suspect the talk about becoming established and legal and all that other stuff in 1873 is just a (lazy) conclusion people made recently after the weight of evidence grew for 1872. "Oh well, if they played their first games in 1872, they MUST have formed a committee, held AGMs etc in 1873 and that's why the official birth date is 1873.' There's no evidence to suggest that at all. Just because I've got a pint of milk in my fridge doesn't mean to say I've got a cow in my living room. I'm no maestro, btw, it's all there in the Gallant Pioneers (except the bit abut February/March 1872), so this is Gary Ralston's argument. Check it out for yourself.

Grrrrrrr . . . . Question Marc, have you not followed this debate at all? Define 'established' in 1873. If we're talking 'established' let's go the whole hog and say the formation date was 1874 as this was when Rangers played their first 'official' game - that Scottish cup tie against Oxford on Queen's Park Rec. Or how about 1876 when they moved to their first home of their own at Kinning Park? Or what about 1879 when they won their first trophy? 1873 is a red herring, get over it and embrace 1872 as the year of formation. End of story. Don't make me come back on here . . . I'll be showing you my stamp collection next.

Subtle difference there Eric, eh? You're now saying 1873 "seems to be" the date everything was made official. I repeat, to the point of tedium and boredom, beyond a line on the club website (which is probably there, understandably, as a bit of a fudge, given the whole background to this debate - why not email the website team and ask?) there is no evidence there was an AGM/registration/office bearers elected in 1873. I've banged on about this enough. I'm away to dallasconspiracies.com to debate the shooting of JFK.

No, my shout back - and this is important for historical accuracy: where is the fact-based evidence for 1873? The club website may say this was when they elected office bearers etc but until they can provide evidence this was really the case I suspect this is always what it has been: a fudge. I suspect the club (only fairly recently) have come to accept they were formed in 1872 but since the early 1920s it has been acknowledged as 1873. Deep down, the people in control of the club today now know that's really, really not the case but have tried to (to some extent understandably) gloss over the issue by saying: 'Yes, first game played in 1872, but officially formed in 1873.' I have real sympathy for the club on this issue. They can't just wake up one morning and say: "Ach, let's put it back to 1872, where it really should be.' I suspect, in time, that may happen. In the meantime, the only evidence to suggest 1873 is from a line on the website. I repeat, let's see a club minute, member's card or press report of an AGM from 1873 and you might just sway me on the importance of that date. The earliest we've ever seen is 1874-75. Until that happens, it's 1872 for me.

At the risk of sounding a patronising so-and-so, thank you: And now we move on to what this always should be, healthy debate. Who says the club had an AGM in 1873? Where's the evidence? Where's the evidence they elected office bearers etc? (newspaper reports, club minutes, member cards etc). I repeat: the first members' card that has ever been uncovered listing office bearers, committee men etc was from season 1874-75. What evidence do you have for 1873?

Okay Islesbear as you are obviously not taking this in (and were the wnkr signs really necessary?) I'll repeat myself . . . more slowly this time . . . . Registered with who in 1873? Certainly not the SFA . . . Rangers were not one of the original eight clubs who formed and were therefore registered with the SFA when it came into being in 1873. The earliest SFA annuals (from 1875-76) say Rangers were a junior club playing on Glasgow Green between 1872-74. Therefore, I repeat - registered with who in 1873? They joined the association in 1874 when they played their first Scottish Cup tie against Oxford. (deep breath) Furthermore, you say Rangers were registered as a professional association football club in 1873. Rangers, like the rest of Scottish football clubs, did not become professional until 1893. All clubs were amateur in the very earliest days, or claimed to be so (in the 1880s under the table payments were rife). Thank you.

Islesbear. What do you mean "registered" in 1873. With who? Where? What's your evidence for making that statement? And Poetry in Blue. What do you mean "legal"? Four boys had to go to a police office and declare their intention to play after first dropping in to get the all clear from a solicitor? I'm sorry to sound facetious and grotty, but let's think before making statements. The weight of evidence suggests Rangers were formed and played their first games in 1872. The earliest member card showing committee etc so far uncovered is from 1874-75. These are the facts, let's deal in them and not just throw in spurious terms such as "legal", "registered", "official" etc. Unless you can provide more defined and sourced evidence based on 1873 those phrases you used are meaningless. It's almost certainly 1872. Rant over! ( And apologies)

Coops, we're going to have to come up with better than that (sorry to sound snotty, and don't take offence, but this is a bugbear of mine). The overwhelming weight of evidence suggests Rangers were founded/formed in 1872, end of story. This 'proper company' 'established' in 1873 etc etc is a load of nonsense that has been allowed to build without anyone thinking what it actually means. What evidence do you have that Rangers became a 'proper' company in 1873 and how are you defining 'proper'? And how are you defining 'company'? On top of that, how were they any more of a 'proper' company in 1873 than they were in 1872? Rangers were basically a boys' club and they quickly organised themselves but the earliest member card so far ever uncovered is from 1874-75 (most likely the first), which shows the committee structure in place at that time. Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, this talk of becoming a 'proper' company in 1873 is meaningless. Rant over!