bjorkland

Your comments here, actually back up my whole point in 'The Third Defence' section of my initial post. You've just said yourself, that term 'fenian' is used to refer to Celtic. It is also used to refer to Catholics in the same way. And yes, it also is a historical term for Irish Republicans. So how can Rangers fans, use the defence of 'fenian' means Irish Republican, when we as fans use it in a completely different manner! And yes, I mean Nakamura. Or Du Wei. Or any other players from any other country which clearly has no association with Irish Republicanism. When Rangers fans commonly and persistantly refer to these people as 'fenians', then it completely devalues the defence that fenian means Irish Republican to such an extent it is embarressing to use it. Another problem, which goes hand in hand, with the above, is the common association, not only made by Rangers fans I should add, that Celtic = Catholic. Historically, one could not be a Celtic fan, without having Catholic beliefs or background. And obviously there is a lot of truth in that, as we all know. But, quite understandably I must say, there has been an equating of the two.

Outlaw, apologies for the delay in replying. I know the world has moved on since this thread started, but it's good manners to reply I think! That's not my argument at all, and I think you know it!

Outlaw, I don't have time to reply, but I'll get back to you

So...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure a large section of the support you went to games with were also white males? Does that then make Rangers a caucasian club? Or a male club?

McBoyd, that post was sublime. Have some rep.

I've picked this post to reply to purely at random, as there was a few all about the same point. Maybe it wasn't a point levelled at me, but I don't think the OP is preaching beyond a level that is acceptable. At the end of the article, I even concede that if some want to sing songs in the privacy of their own home, fine. But as McBoyd has gone onto say, when it becomes an issue which affects ALL the fans, regardless of whether they choose to sing or not, then as Rangers supporters we have got every right to preach to others to stop singing songs that will and are harming the club, and others ability to enjoy supporting the club.

Valid point. Absolutely, we live in Britain, the land of tradition and institution, much of which has absolutely no relevance to 21st century life. However, tradition should never be blindly carried on for traditions sake. IMO as free thinking and rational society, we should question tradition, both it's value and it's roots.

I did reply with exactly the same sentiments, but haven't seen a response to that as yet.

Also just like to say a huge thanks to Admin for posting the article on the homepage. It's clear from this thread, that the views expressed are not popular with everyone, but it's also clear there is a great deal of members and Rangers fans who do share them. Debate is healthy, and can only lead us forward as a support.

Right I think I've replied to everyone. If I've missed anything, let me know. I'm off RM for the night now.

Fair enough, I agree. Edited the original reply accordingly. I'll dilute my point, by saying that singing about killing your opposition in a sporting event, is unneccesary. See my earlier response to Outlaw about the difference between rivalry and hatred.

There's no irony in the fact that I don't think there is a persicution of Rangers, and that I do think there is too much CCTV in the UK.

And of course you know how much I contribute to the club don't you? Not that it is particularly relevant...

It does indeed. It still doesn't make it ok for us to do the same.

Again, see replies to Outlaw and cstamomusa.

See response to Outlaw. I thought our appeal was against the conviction, rather than a defence appeal.

I know this comes from The Record, and I've previously slagged off tabloids, but I've no reason to not believe it. Full article. Apologies, I've misunderstood the goings on regarding the appeal.

If that is what I have done, then I apologise. It was not my intention. I've edited the last sentence in the article to avoid this. Maybe I'm extremely mis-guided here, but I don't think the problem is calling Celtic fans fenians. Specifically, with TBB, the problem is about 'being up to our knees in fenian blood'. Now couple that with the fact, that the word fenian has taken the common meaning of Catholic, it becomes sectarian. Were we to call Celtic fans fenians, meaning Catholic, we would be generalising of course, but there is nothing sectarian about that. and were TBB to sing 'up to our knees in Celtic blood', it can't be called sectarian, because it doesn't refer to religion. As for H**, I believe it is an offence, and it clearly does still happen, so should be punished. I don't like being called a H**, because of the negative connotations, as you point out, it conjures. Editted as per later conversation with H72

Agreed.

It has since emerged I believe that UEFA claim their delegate at the away game did report us as well. Take from that what you will. I agree the circumstances are not normal, but I don't believe there is a conspiracy. But even if there was, it still doesn't take away from the fact certain supporters sing sectarian songs. Also, we have been found guilty. The club are in the process of appealing. And TBB has been audible in most games this season. EDIT - spelling. Again...

I fail to see the irony. It is a fact that the UK is the most surveiled country in the world, and there is little evidence that it works.

And that's to be commended. But we can, and should do more. I'm not saying it will solve the problem permantly, but it will help.

Or maybe, they are taking the common meaning of Catholic, rather than the Fenian movement? Talk about ambiguous! I'm not defending the actions of certain Celtic fans, and I think Celtic FC have a responsibility to control their fans, which currently they are not. I have already stated some of their support is just as guilty as some of our support. This is a perfect example of why all this 19th century, unrelated rubbish, should be removed from football.

Perhaps those who wish to continue singing as a protest, should also offer to pay the fines and reimburse the clubs the lost money from gates that will be the result of continued singing? I'm all for protesting about inequality, but it has to be done in a constructive manner.