Youllneverwinaway
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Posts posted by Youllneverwinaway
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YNWA,
You are completely missing the point regarding the Murray Companies taking huge amounts of money out of Rangers. Murray did not own these companies or have any business interests in call centres, catering, financial services before he took over at Rangers.
He has used both his profile and his shareholding to create Companies outwith RFC whose first contracts became with RFC. Re Azure, he created Azure with a catering expert 50/50 and the very first contract he got was for the catering at Ibrox. This creates 2 questions. Why did he not just employ the expert to revamp the catering? Why did a newstart Company get such a big contract without any proven track record? The answer to both is that he used RFC to make money for himself, and when he had built the Company up and it got other stadium contracts on the back of the RFC contract, he sold his shareholding and walked away with the profit that should have stayed in the club. The same goes for Response Handling. He created this company to run call centres and the first major contract was with Rangers. The same goes with the sale of the Albion. All these income streams have been lost to the club, but not to DM.
I picked the Conal Walsh article because it came up in my google search and because it comes from the financial section of an English broadsheet. Hardly equates with a smelly bitter anti-Rangers footy journo now does it. I am sure you can google a few more similar articles for further clarification.
Re Bain, he is the day to day big chief at Rangers. If you fall out with Bain you are sacked. He does of course do his masters bidding, but he is the CEO and the one completely responsible for player contracts. You hit the nail on the head when you said he thought he could get away with it, and that mistake should cost him his job. It is not the first huge error in this regard and wont be his last. Let us also not forget that he is not qualified to do the job, and has no experience in running any Compnay this size, far less a football club. His first contact with Rangers was as a sales rep for McEwans Lager, who were our sponsors at the time. Hardly a difficult sale!!
I dont have a lot of time this morning to fully answer all your points, so I am just oicking out a few that are easy to answer. I will at a later point come back to you on the rest. I think a lot of it is opinion or conjecture rather than fact and that is fair enough, but we are not going to get to any conclusive proof with that.
1) Azure 50/50 point - Murray owned 80% from the start. http://www.murray-international.co.uk/pdfs...rnational02.pdf
It wasnt a case of re-vamping the catering. The point of creating Azure was to bring down the overheads in running the catering. By branching out to other teams, you get the opporutnity to spread the overall running costs and therefor as has been proven, make a bigger profit. There can be very little doubt from the figures provided that out-sourcing the catering gave Rangers a bigger profit than our own in-house operation. Im also not sure how you can say Murray walked away with a profit from Azure. The reason he sold Azure was down to the £3 million losses it made in the previous 18 months leading to the sale. It was hardly a booming business as he didnt secure the contracts he thought he would get meaning the overheads continued to swamp the profit, just as it did when running it in-house. The figures are fact and can be found in the following reports.
http://www.murray-international.co.uk/docu...REPORTS2005.pdf
http://www.murray-international.co.uk/docu...REPORTS2004.pdf
2) Lets also be clear about Responce Handling and what the Rangers contract means to them as a company. The Rangers calls make up less than 1% of their work. they have over 2000 agents ( http://www.murray-international.co.uk/response_handling.htm ) capable of answering 150,000 calls per day at full stretch and will only require around a team of 10 to handle Rangers calls not unless we generate upwards of 1000 calls per day(Cant see it but dont have it as a FACT). Why is it so many big companies use out-sourcers ? why is out-sourcing such a massive business..... put simply is that it is a more cost effective way of handling customer enquiries. a 10 man team in an out-sourcing company costs a lot less than running that operation yourself including rent/rates/telephony/insurance/day to day costs/staff/management etc etc.....
When you add to it the point about Murray owning both companies, then the best option for David Murray AND Rangers is to pay as little as humanly possible to answer the telephones. This is why its done in a 2000 man operation and not in a 10 man office. The Rangers account with Responce will be one of the smallest ones Response deal with. I bring 7 years Call Centre management(including dealing with outsourcers) to the above response.
3) Again, with Bain, i have no basis of argument. Yes Murray appointed him but as you clearly state in your post, a lot of the stuff on Bain, what he done, what he does, what he doesnt do is pure conjecture. I have no case to state for/against Bain which is why i wont stick up for him or indeed completely condemn him. I like to build my views on the facts rather than opinion/conjecture.
I know i keep saying it but again cheers for the debate TB and keeping it on a level ground discussion
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YNWA , I have to admit when you discuss things with tannochside bear it makes our arguement futile as I am unable to provide the detail that you both managed ( not the greatest on the web ) , however my understanding of edminston house and the albion both came from the agm's and from Murray's own mouth , both were disposed of , the albion for £2 million and . edminston house to response handling , i definetly know about edminston house as it was me who asked him the question with regards the bond office .
I admire your continual support of murray however we will need to disagree totally on his tenure , his approach to players contracts , and his response when times got really difficult when he slunk away and left John Mclelland in charge is totally indefensible in my eyes
The info i gave on Edmiston is genuine. There is one part of it listed as being Charlotte Ventures but the rest are still owned by Rangers according to Scottish Assessors who are in charge of all rates. It could be that the question was not understood properly mate.
anyways, no probs and im quite happy to discuss the topic with all and sundry. Im here to learn on it as well mate
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3. It is from the official Rangers accounts. The 2004 accounts states that Murray companies paid in £395K and took out £4.3M in services (£11 for every £1). In 2005 the figures are £166K and £3.9M, in 2006 the figures are £191K and £1.9M and 2007 figures are £126K and £1.8M. So in the last 4 years published accounts he has put in £878K and took out a staggering £11.9M in fees and services.
The link to the accounts : http://www.plusmarketsgroup.com/reports.sh...80/GBP/PLUS-exn
Again, pretty damning 100% proof of what I said.
TB
I have had a look at the accounts and found exactly what you said. Firstly dealing with 03/04 and 04/05, the reason the figures were so high was purely down to catering costs which im sure you are aware. The catering was sold during the 04/05 season and you can see the drop the following year of £2m-£2.5m worth of catering costs in there which 100% tallies in with the pre Azure figures and confirms that we would have needed to be bringing in £3.7m + revenue from our own operation in order for it to be a bigger success when the reality is we were not bringing in £3m. You're £11.9 versus £878k is a misrepresentation in that the first total(expenditure), catering costs from 04 and 05 are included but in the second total catering receipts(sales/income) of £6.7 million for 2004 and 2005 are not listed. These do not count as money paid by Murray Companies as we collected the money, then paid the costs. All of a sudden the ratio changes from 11:1 to 1.57:1 for Group Expenditure:Income.
Now having dealt with that, i do confess that the remaining £1.7 million cost still remaining looks high to me. I cannot justify it but i will at least attempt to explain some of it, offering an alternative view, in the hope it generates a discussion or at least an acceptance of validity.
1) The first thing that catches my attention is "TRAVEL" I must admit to not knowing any Murray arm that organises travel but i dont know all the ins and outs. If "TRAVEL" includes all away games, home and abroad then the figure no longer looks frightening, in fact it looks light. Would like to know more about that and perhaps someone can explain.
2) Murray International Holdings pays tax on overall profit of consolidated accounts of his entire empire. It doesnt really matter to Murray year in year out which books show which, because at the end of his tax year, he pays it on the total profit. When Rangers pay Responce Handling £300,000 (made up figure), then a -£300,000 appears in Rangers books and a +£300,000 appears in Responce books. In Murrays MIH books, he sees both transactions and they cancel each other out meaning a Net £0. On this basis, what possible reason would Murray have to take more money from Rangers than what was actually due.
I realise its difficult to sometimes explain in writing what you are trying to portray, but hopefully it comes across TB. Look forward to your repsonce
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Michael Higdon, the Falkirk striker, has accused the referee of "bottling it" over Celtic's opening goal in the 3-0 victory at Parkhead on Saturday.
Iain Brines allowed Stephen McManus' goal to stand despite claims from the visitors that the Celtic captain had knocked the ball into the net with a hand or arm.
Higdon, who was next to McManus when the centre-half made contact with a Shunsuke Nakamura free-kick, said: "It was just a blatant hand-ball." He claimed McManus had admitted the goal should not have stood. "I have even asked him after he did it and he said I handballed it in and he's just not give it'," said the Falkirk striker. He added: "He scooped it in with his hand. I could not believe it. I could have knocked the ref out, to be honest."
Higdon was scathing about Brines. "I was surprised I never got booked today because I kept having a go at him all the time," said the Liverpudlian. "I booted the ball away and he never booked me. It just shows you how inconsistent that referee is. What are you going to do?"
There has been controversy over the standard of refereeing in Scotland in the past year. Higdon added to the fire by saying: "The referees do bottle it because they keep making the same mistakes all the time."
He cited Charlie Richardson's refusal to give a penalty against Celtic at Tannadice last week and said that Brines, who stopped play before Zander Diamond scored against the champions late last season, was "obviously a Celtic fan".
Expect a suspension son
http://www.theherald.co.uk/sport/headlines...ll_incident.php
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1. You are trying to defend the indefensible here with Cuellar. It is Bain's job to look after the player contracts. Anyone knowing anything about football knows that CC was worth more than £7.8M after the season he had and our profile in getting to the UEFA final. He 100% failed to see the disaster waiting to happen and sleepwalked into the position we found ourselves in after Kanuas. You say CC may have declined such offer anyway and that is of course true but the fact that he never tried is gross mismanagement and a sacking offence.
2. I dont know how old you are but it was well documented at the time that the Albion was sold to a Company owned by Murray as part of the club deck redevelopment plans. A quick google search has come up empty, maybe you can find it yourself. The argument is that it should have stayed part of RFC plc and used as a valuable income stream for generations to come. As for other asset-stripping the following quote is from The Guardian in 2004.
"For a start, a number of other MIH subsidiaries have lucrative service contracts at Ibrox and are effectively dependent on Rangers. Charlotte Ventures made a quarter of its annual turnover providing finan cial advice to the club last year. Carnegie Information Systems billed it for more than £1.1m for IT services, and Azure Support Services a whopping £2.8m for catering - more than two-thirds of its total sales. These services probably double the football club's 'contribution' to MIH's overall performance."
link http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2004/ma...crisis.football
I would say that is pretty damning stuff, wouldnt you?
3. It is from the official Rangers accounts. The 2004 accounts states that Murray companies paid in £395K and took out £4.3M in services (£11 for every £1). In 2005 the figures are £166K and £3.9M, in 2006 the figures are £191K and £1.9M and 2007 figures are £126K and £1.8M. So in the last 4 years published accounts he has put in £878K and took out a staggering £11.9M in fees and services.
The link to the accounts : http://www.plusmarketsgroup.com/reports.sh...80/GBP/PLUS-exn
Again, pretty damning 100% proof of what I said.
I said we are worse off now than in 1988 when he took over and I stand by that. Halfway through 1988-89 we were well on course for our 2nd title in 3 years, most observers admitting that Butcher's broken leg cost us the title in 1988. We were in a virtually brand new stadium with a capacity of around 45,000, and were in single figure debt. We fully owned our own training ground, a large number of Rangers shops around the UK, our own catering, matchday programme and weekly newspaper, purpose built pools and ticket office, and we had players recognised around the world as top-class players. Our situation today could not be further removed from that position. Dont look at the intervening 20 years, look at November 1988 against August 2008. Are we better off now?
In 1978-88 we had been in 2 QF of the European Cup, the big important trophy. In 1998-2008 we have made one minor Euro final and one last 16 of the CL. Not too different in terms of global exposure.
Check out the links I have gave you, do some homework yourself. I have spent over an hour on this reply as it is an important issue, and I not expecting you to immediately come out and agree that DM is bad for us, but some honest discussion is good for us all.
Firstly TB - thanks for being the first person who is providing some material to back up your views rather than simply giving it "Just cause" I have said from the off that im open to learn stuff on this as to be honest all ive heard in the past is the stock response.
1) Re Cuellar, i agree you have a point on Bain. Ive never said anything much on Bain as i dont know how much or how little he is involved in things. If you are looking to proportion blame on the Cuellar point then Bain is the one to point the finger at. Not for the initial clause as i reckon thats fair game, but i agree they could have had a pop at changing things around. I do remain firmly in the belief that had Cuellar not been coming out and telling everyone how happy he was and how he loved the club, we may have acted sooner. Perhaps Bain thought he could get away with it.
2) My first season ticket was 1986 so im old enough to remember the whole Murray era. I can remember there being chat about the Albion, but i cant remember it being in the press or confirmed in accounts. I have researched it myself and came up with the total of nothing hence, me still awaiting evidence on it. How many times have you read that all the Edmiston block was sold...yet i have provided evidence that it is not the case or certainly not as clear cut as some would have you believe.
With all due respect to Conal Walsh, would you have provided this link if it was Graeme Spiers who wrote the article? I think we know that there are journos out there with their agendas and whilst im not saying this guy has any reason to have one, i trust anything they write with a pinch of salt. Why is it we should trust what this guy writes when it appears this one article is the only thing wrote on it anywhere. Stick a quick google search in on "david murray azure catering profit" and you get hit with Tim this Tim that and tim again websites. In order to believe Mr Walsh's figures, im afraid im going to have to see them in black and white.
Which brings me onto 3)
I already have that link and ive read through the accounts to get some of the figures i have quoted on here. I will have a look at them tomorrow to view the figures you have quoted mate as its not something i have spotted previously. I will reply in kind tomorrow at some stage
Re your last paragraph, i appreciate we "owned" our own training ground but with all due respect it was no better than a cow field. It is surely a big dis-service to even consider comparing it to Murray Park. Going back to 1988, im not sure it is accurate to say we had Gers shops all over the UK. If i was a gambling man, i would say the Shops all over the place came after Murray came in and the only shop open in 1988 would have been the one on the opposite corner to the Underground. I dont have anything to back this up though but i can remember being in Glasgow and getting the subway out to buy stuff as i couldnt get it in Glasgow
I have provided figures to show that out-sourcing the catering was the right thing to do, the Pools has been heavily affected by NAtional Lottery and the general market(see Littlewoods for another example) and casting up the World class players is a bad scenario purely from the point of view that in 1988 World Class players cost £1m, now they cost £35m. Its a different world we live in and nobody, short of an Abramovic could have kept the Gers up in that market(and i seriously doubt he could either)As for 2 x QF of the Big Cup back in the 70/80, we beat 2 teams to reach it. Its the equivalent of comparing the Tims Big Cup win to Man United last year. There is simply not a person on this planet can compare beating 2 teams to the 19 games we experienced last year or even reaching the CL Last 16 and losing on away goals to Villarreal having played 4 different Champions to give us that right.
Will come back to you once ive had the chance to read over the accounts again.
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First murray statedhe had spent £100 PROPPING up RANGERS
second , the albion was sold and recorded on the accouts as such years ago as was edminston house , which used to ouse the ticket office , premier club , bond office and is now owned lockstock under the name of response handling .a murray company
third , the catering was outsourced to azure catering (a murray company , under the control of one of his sons )which was later sold on rangers get a nominal sum for the lease of the outlets , Murray refuses to reveal the exact details of the rental , he has been asked numerous times
fourth , the one I agree with you completly the only downside is that because the shops have been done away with if he fails to get the licence renewed at a decent level we are screwed
Finally and this is what really pisses me off about guys like you , David holmes spent almost his entire life working for Marlborough and as such was a much valued and trusted confidont, he himself has stated in many interviews and even in the first rangers video(god remember them ) that he had been working on the stadium redevelpment for years prior to taking up is job of turning Rangers around , he even goes as far as giving hugh adam full praise for raising the money through the rangers pools for the stadium redevelopment. he then states tat when that was finished he could then turn is attentio to finding the final piece of the jigsa the manager , dont start with the history lesson as you dont have a fucking clue about who did what when and where , stick to your i love david murray band ,
I am still waiting for your evidence of Murray propping up Rangers , and will be waiting for a good while , keep regurgitating he same arguement , or even better wait till your two mate s come and back you up , then we will all know it must be true
What do you define as "propping up". For me, someone who takes £50 million of his own wealth and pays it against a £50 million debt is "propping up". You keep quoting this propping up yet here is what he said.
“They must also look at the financial underpinning that the Murray Group has done at Rangers. Let’s be under no illusion, it has cost us £100 million. And I’ll tell you, unless Rangers are backed by proper cash, this club will have to downsize. There will also be public scrutiny. Other than me going on the park and scoring goals, which I’m incapable of doing, I’m not sure what else I can do.”
The Albion Car Park is shown on the accounts..... can you give me a link to this please or have i simply to take the Timmy approach of believing that they only got 1 penalty in 30 years just because some guy on the internet said they did.
Edmiston Buildings own lock stock and barrel by Responce.......hmmmm.......another finger in the air moment.
Ref No.
L348600130 F0201
Description Property Address
130 EDMISTON DRIVE
GLASGOW
G51 2YX
Proprietor
RANGERS FOOTBALL CLUB LTD
150 EDMISTON DRIVE
GLASGOW
G51 2XD
Tenant Occupier
RESPONSE HANDLING
FLAT 2-1
130 EDMISTON DRIVE
GLASGOW
G51 2YX
Give Scottish Assesors a call in the morning if you want and they will confirm the above
Finally the catering....As outlined previously......We were making very little profit from catering back in late 90's. Our £3 million revenue was getting swallowed up by stock and staffing costs. Murray created Azure with a view of growing them as a company by moving into other teams which in turn would drive down overall overheads. Since the change to out-sourcing, we have consistently made a £1 million + "profit" on catering. We would have had to have had a 50% profit to cost ratio back in the day for our in-house operation to be more profitable than out-sourcing. That would never be the case. It is also worth noticing that Azure was sold on after having a £3 million loss over 2 years so any fancy idea that Murray profited it from them is a non starter
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To anyone who is sitting on the fence they would be shaking their heads , you want to count the money he spent buying the club , also the money that his companies put in which they also recieved equal shares for , yet you still cannot account for any money Murray says he spent propping Rangers up .You ask for people to post figures yet you continually refuse to post figures to back up your own arguement.
Also the facts that Murray has sold Rangers assets seems to go right over your head , the albion gone , edminston house gone , the ticket office outsourced , the catering outsourced , the retail side outsourced
You have not put up one single fact to back up your very shoddy arguement , and if you have ever attended an agm which I doubt you will have witnessed Murray being questioned on these points for years , he very rarely answers them ,giving the stock answer "trust me " well sorry but I along with the vast majorty dont.
Also the plaudits dont lie with marlborough they lie with David Holmes
Murray was asked how much he had spent on Rangers and he said £100 million. Why should we NOT count the money he used to purchase the club and the money he used to pay off the debt for goodness sake. It matters not a jot that he got extra shares. When you buy a car for £10k, you get something in return which is worth something. The value of the car doesnt change the FACT YOU SPENT £10k for goodness sake.
Sale of the Albion - Back it up with fact. show me some evidence on it. Im not saying its not true but so many people talk about it but never show any evidence.
Sale of Edmiston House - There is 6 rate blocks which form part of the Edmiston buildings. 5 are still owned by Rangers Football Club as confirmed by Glasgow Rates Board and one doesnt. Bet you didnt read that anywhere else.
Catering outsourced - Because we made more money from outsourcing. Nice and simple one.
Retail outsource - We made an operating profit of £1.9 million on retail the year prior to the "10 YEAR LICENCE" and yes IT IS ONLY A LICENCE for 10 years. We make a guaranteed £4.8 million per year plus potential add ons. No brainer.
And finally your last point. You come on here throwing stuff at me and yet you believe David Holmes was responsible for Ibrox redevelopment. Tell me when the Govan, Copland and Broomloan stands were opened and then tell me when Daivd Holmes became a Director of Rangers.
This is exactly the kind of rubbish Murray haters get up to. They just keep saying something and eventually its melted into others that what they have heard is true.
so tell us what murray built.
Ive alrready said that Murray was responsible for upgrading the stadium and that Marlborough was responsible for the rest.
Murray of course built Murray Park, which as an asset, i would imagine is worth more than the Albion Car Park and even the one office in the Edmiston buildings that Rangers dont own
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To anyone who is sitting on the fence they would be shaking their heads , you want to count the money he spent buying the club , also the money that his companies put in which they also recieved equal shares for , yet you still cannot account for any money Murray says he spent propping Rangers up .You ask for people to post figures yet you continually refuse to post figures to back up your own arguement.
Also the facts that Murray has sold Rangers assets seems to go right over your head , the albion gone , edminston house gone , the ticket office outsourced , the catering outsourced , the retail side outsourced
You have not put up one single fact to back up your very shoddy arguement , and if you have ever attended an agm which I doubt you will have witnessed Murray being questioned on these points for years , he very rarely answers them ,giving the stock answer "trust me " well sorry but I along with the vast majorty dont.
Also the plaudits dont lie with marlborough they lie with David Holmes
Murray was asked how much he had spent on Rangers and he said £100 million. Why should we NOT count the money he used to purchase the club and the money he used to pay off the debt for goodness sake. It matters not a jot that he got extra shares. When you buy a car for £10k, you get something in return which is worth something. The value of the car doesnt change the FACT YOU SPENT £10k for goodness sake.
Sale of the Albion - Back it up with fact. show me some evidence on it. Im not saying its not true but so many people talk about it but never show any evidence.
Sale of Edmiston House - There is 6 rate blocks which form part of the Edmiston buildings. 5 are still owned by Rangers Football Club as confirmed by Glasgow Rates Board and one doesnt. Bet you didnt read that anywhere else.
Catering outsourced - Because we made more money from outsourcing. Nice and simple one.
Retail outsource - We made an operating profit of £1.9 million on retail the year prior to the "10 YEAR LICENCE" and yes IT IS ONLY A LICENCE for 10 years. We make a guaranteed £4.8 million per year plus potential add ons. No brainer.
And finally your last point. You come on here throwing stuff at me and yet you believe David Holmes was responsible for Ibrox redevelopment. Tell me when the Govan, Copland and Broomloan stands were opened and then tell me when Daivd Holmes became a Director of Rangers.
This is exactly the kind of rubbish Murray haters get up to. They just keep saying something and eventually its melted into others that what they have heard is true.
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A strange title, im sure you'll agree!
Anyway, i was at a monotonous reception over the weekend and i had a lot of time to kill. There was no television/radio on offer so i decided to start on a bit of reading. As i reached into my bag to fetch some Solzhenitsyn i soon realised that i had infact forgot to pack any kind of reading material! To the hotel lobby i went to find something (anything) to read and low and behold, the only mildly interesting thing on offer was "Keane", Roy Keane's autobiography.
What can you say about Keane? Overrated manager who has a habit of making stupendous signings, a thug of a player who's actions were absoultely disgusting and worst of all, a server of theirs. All in all, a nasty footballer who wasnt the best at (as we Scots call it) "Keeping the heed".
One thing Keane did have going for him though was preperation and commitment. Does anyone else remember watching him as a kid back in 99 destroying the likes of Davids, Zizu, Di Livio and Deschamps through sheer hard work and full on commitment? The players previously mentioned were all blessed with natural talent, Keane wasnt.
Work, work, work was his motto. He'd study his opposition miles in advance before entering the battlefield with them and was a staunch believer in the old "fail to prepare, prepare to fail" cliche. Even the most hardened of bear will admit his concentration and focus levels in the build up to a game were something else.
Then (rather contrastingly) i started thinking about Kris Boyd. The king of Ibrox to some and an idol to many. A guy who DOES have a natural gift (and that gift is goalscoring) and a guy who according to most, should start every week. Boyd has played under three Rangers managers and three Scotland managers yet for some reason has never been a first pick under any of them really. Whilst i don't want to cop out by using that as an example, it surely does say something.
I actually thought he was improving, he did look a bit better in the air and his touch was a bit better. Sadly, seeing the likes of Darren Barr and Marius Zaliukas easily dominate him in recent weeks leads me to believe that it was infact a false dawn.
Ive never really bought into this "play him and he'll score" idealistic attitude. When it comes to the "smaller" games then maybe but in the big games? Sorry, that just isnt going to happen. If Boyd doesnt rampantly set about changing his style of play and attitude completely, he just wont fit in with the new demands and modernity of the game. Whilst ive been critical of the managers mentioned previously, they're not the type who will let a player "get off" easily which in turn, leads me to believe that Boyd's problem is just a lack of willingness and effort.
Then we have Charlie Adam, a player who is constantly lampooned for his weight and his apparent lack of effort on the park. Ill put my cards on the table and ill admit, i like Charlie. Sure, his ability "on a good day" is grossly overrated by many on here but i honestly think he has something. The Stuttgart game was a good example of what i like about him; playing awful but yet NEVER hiding and in the end being rewarded with a goal.
The above stanza is no praise for Adam, not at all. It is infact what annoys me most about him. He has fans constantly on his back because of his weight levels but yet he's never really made any attempt to improve himself. In his case, it's just a rancid lack of commitment.
Finally, there's Kirk Broadfoot. A player who lets be honest, is absolutely woeful. Really, he's just rubbish, he's laughably bad infact.
However, i've heard stories about him turning up for pre season early and generally working extremely hard at his game. His second half performance against Fiorentina at Ibrox is testament to how far he's came since his St Mirren days (woah, dont even get me started on how awful he was there nevermind here), he was superb and you could see the improvement. If anything, he's the Scotsman i respect most at Rangers.
The Scottish "Largs mafia" attitude is ingrained in most players and its sad, infact its a tragedy. "If we train hard we deserve a night on the piss" etc. As a nation our (apparent) footballing hero plys his trade in the Championship for gods sake! The general culture of Scotland in a sporting sense needs a complete uphauling and i fear that unless it is, we will continue to "waste" the raw foundations of players like Boyd et al.
Good read and on the whole....agree with ye
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Fee will be £2.5 m if Maloney makes a certain amount of appearances. He has said that he was never spoken to about any interest from Rangers. I would have paid £2.5m every time for Maloney before paying £1.9m for Misser.
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I do appologise for not having any info to hand to back up my arguement , just as you have no info at hand to back up yours , just " murray pumped in £100 million " , as did enic , dave king , the ntl money etc etc , maybe my choice of players was wrong , but so is your info ,Hurlock was not freed he was sold , Sterland went to leeds for more than he came for , the agm's back in the 90's never mentioned debt Murray's mantra was trust me everything is great, no problem
Far too many murray appologist's cannot get their head's out the sand and see what we have become , two last day league in 8 years ,that may be success for you but not Rangers and certainly not for me
youwilneverwinawa , in the interest's of fairness and since you like to see things in black and white , maybe you can produce yor evidence that murray has propped up rangers and indeed pumped money into the club , please dont use the share issue to back up your arguement as he had no other option bar Rangers going into administration and he also recieved the appropriate number of shares in return , ill look forward to your evidnce
Thats a fking BRILLIANT arguement rbr - let me translate "I know you have made a valid point - but I am disputing it and as my argument is shit I will ask you to defend your statement without allowing you to use your strongest most valid argument, cause if I allow you to use the share issue then I am fked in this argument, I am down a hole with no where to turn to and no way out"
You state an absolute fact Murray could have let Rangers go into administration (It happened to Leeds) but he didin't - Murrray stepped up to the plate and fixed his mistakes / gamble. It would havebeen easy for him to walk away - but he didn't he rollled up his sleeves, took the critisism on the chin and moved on. Do NOT ever believe that the money used was NOT real, it does not matter that it came from a MIM group or company it still made a big hole in the Murray Empire.
sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you , firstly , there is no valid point made just assumptions based on murray saying when under pressure that he put £100 million into Rangers , no where in any of the accounts do we see any money being put into Rangers , enic yes , king yes , ntl yes ,murray nope , as to the he put the money into the club and he didn't have to , well technically you are correct however that would have had a direct consequence on three of his other companies which were directly involved with Rangers , but you would know all that as well , all I asked since you were the ones bleating on about evidence is to put up as that is what your whole arguement revolves around , so get it posted
So there wasnt a £50+ million put in by Murray a couple of years back............Did we all just dream that ???
What about the "APPARENT" £14 million your fellow Murray dissenter spoke about back in 1988 clearing the debt and buying out Marlborough.
Are we gonna use "myths" to suit one side and not the other ?
here you go again except this time you are adding in the money he used to buy the club to back up your arguement as well as adding in the shares money , which he recieved the equivelant in shares for ,Murray stated he had used £100 million of his own money propping up rangers , nowhere in any set of accounts does any of this appear , you have no basis to your arguement , just a couple of pals backing up the same boring untrue arguement , you probably believe murray buit ibrox single handedly , guys like you will never
accept the truth , no matter what team you actually support because I have never read as much drivel in support of murray as you and your appologist pals post , but hey who knows what colour the sky is in your world
Ah right, so we cant count the £50 million he put in to pay off the debt that admittedly HE CREATED chasing a dream because well just cause and we cant count the £14 million(not my figure) he used to buy the club again due to the just cause status
Perhaps a better idea is to stick our fingers in our ears and whistle the theme tune to Rainbow ffs.
Murray did not build Ibrox. He changed it into what we see today which is a 5 star rated stadium which is up there with the best in Europe. Most of the stadium plaudits lie with Lawrence Marlborough.
I think you are doing the Murray dissenters more harm than good. If anyone was on a fence and reading this post, i reckon you might just swing them the other way
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Dodgy officials or not, that game should have been done and dusted by half time. Theres 12 guys you should be pointing the finger at before any of this pish IMO.
Just to be clear here, i agree with you. The figures are what the figures are and for me they have a very difficult job. Players and the managers make many more mistakes than the officials.
The stats are just the stats.
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2 major decisions today.
No Injury time to be played in first half but ref plays on and Aberdeen score. INCORRECT decision one
The offside - INCORRECT decision two.
Mark them up on the board, but still not convinced its bias
they make mistakes just as players, managers, you and I do every day.
Iam surprised you are the first person to mention this. The ball was dead, out of play at 45 minutes with no added on time. The ref however allowed time to run on, Aberdeen manage to get the ball and put it into the box, eventually getting the goal. Whats the point in saying, no added time, but then playing it, especially when the ball is out of play.
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I think a more apt question would be:
"Why, when there was no time to be added on in the first half and the ball went out of play at 45:01, did you allow some extra itime, during which, Aberdeen scored their equaliser ya rocket? "
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dont know yet but is any of the stands just sitting there i thought the whole stadium would be bouncing
In the Bill Struth Stand we rustle our sweetie papers in unison at the big moments.
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Oh and its 19 Celtic games and 18 Rangers games for Thomson
That's long enough for the stats to be credible then. I think Eddie Smith is out to beat him though.
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Smith has only reffed 5 Celtic SPL games. They have won them all and never conceded a goal
How about our games? Has he reffed any?
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3 games at Ibrox only.
2 wins and a 1-1 draw against St Mirren funnily enough under PLG
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Managed to find this from Traynor..
"CAN we please get one thing straight.There was never anything written under my name that even remotely suggested that those Rangers fans who were indiscriminately beaten by Pamplona police last week brought it on themselves.Or that they deserved a good hiding.
So, for the last time, let me say that the behaviour of those riot cops was savage and extremely dangerous.
Even now I can still see them, clad in black from head to toe, wading in wielding their batons. It was frightening and I was at the other end of the ground.
Unconcerned for anyone's safety, these policemen clubbed innocents and although there were known troublemakers in that section of Rangers' support the riot squad acted as though everyone, women included, deserved to be belted.
If UEFA decide to let Osasuna off the hook despite their apparent disregard for segregation - there were pockets of Rangers fans all over the Reyno de Navarro stadium - they will be condoning what was clearly a form of violence."
WOTS the problem ????????
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Oh and its 19 Celtic games and 18 Rangers games for Thomson
That's long enough for the stats to be credible then. I think Eddie Smith is out to beat him though.
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Smith has only reffed 5 Celtic SPL games. They have won them all and never conceded a goal
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ScotBear. You lost a lot of respect from me when you tried to justify the beatings. No Rangers fan would say anything like that IMO.
The fact that you didn't even know what I was talking about initially says to me that you are willing to defend any old shite.
Poor show.
In fact it's fucking disgusting
He said it was justified if it was ICF looking for trouble.
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Point is it wasn't the ICF that they attacked, I've already said they were well gone by the time the batons arrived...
Spanish police are scumbags. Saw a clip around the time of them batoning a Spanish woman around the head. Why the British government sit back and allow this to happen to their citizens I don't know.
Fans can't do anything through European human rights legislation either as I'm pretty sure Spain haven't signed up to a few treaties.
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Its not restricted to Spanish police. Its similar wherever we travel.
Lessons should be learned though from how Barca and Florence cops treated us.
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Oh and its 19 Celtic games and 17 Rangers games for Thomson
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Now before i post this, let me state for the record that i know 2 Grade One referees(1 current and 1 just retired) through family and friends and i genuinely belive they do their job on the park which for me is a thankful task. Never the less, the following facts cannot be disputed. They are simpy a representation of Craig Thomsons SPL stats when refereeing the OF.
When Craig Thomson referees Celtic they pick up on average 2.53 points per game played.
When Craig Thomson referees Rgers they pick up on average 1.53 points per game played.
When Craig Thomson referees Celtic they pick up on average 1.47 yellow cards per game.
When Craig Thomson referees Rgers they pick up on average 1.67 yellow cards per game.
When Craig Thomson referees Celtic they score on average 2.53 goals per game.
When Craig Thomson referees Rgers they score on average 1.47 goals per game.
When Craig Thomson referees Celtic they have never had a player sent off.
When Craig Thomson referees Rgers they have had 4 players sent off and he has a record of sending a Gers player off in 24% of his games.
If you want any more ref stats on the above then please PM.......
What period of time does this cover? How many games etc. There will be a lot of other factors to take into account such as we were shit last year but those stats on their own don't look good.
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They cover 1998 onwards mate
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How off topic has this thread went
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It wont be Smith. You can rest easy on that front guys....
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Its like im being ignored noo
Evening Times comment section on refs
in Jimmy Bell's Kitroom
Posted
As much as the fact that most of what you write is true, i think you lose face by trying to justify the Dundee United howlers. It was a penalty(not a red card) and it was a goal. Denying them just makes everything else you say look as though you are viewing through blue specs, even when you arent