Tontospal

The Dublin Loyal have a flag which states Behind Enemy Lines - Dublin Loyal The phrase was actually coined by a Dublin paper but Scott, Bain and Murray have banned the flag in case it causes offence. That is what we are up against and what our support is accepting from the people in charge.

I have never personaly met any bear who is ashamed of Rangers past or there traditions. To be honest I don't know where half of the people who start threads like this get it from. I started the thread and have met very few Rangers supporters who are ashamed or ignorant of our past and traditions. However, as is seen from some of the posts to this thread there are quite a few out there, including Bain, Murray and Kenny Scott given sme of their actions such as banning the Dublin Loyal flag.

No chance - I don't know a single bear ashamed of that song. Me included. I've sang it lustily enough myself a thousand times and more. I don't even accept it stopped because we were told it was bad. It was getting the club into trouble, and was going to get us in a whole lot more. There wouldn't have been a lot of pride in continuing with it as an act of defiance and witnessing our club being hammered left, right and centre. Simply put - without a legal challenge to protect our right to sing it there was no other solution available but to drop it. That is the whole point. The club - Murray, Bain etc - showed their cowardice and the fans simply accepted the threat of punishment if the song wasn't dropped. It suited Murray's agenda and not too long later he was knighted. I was amazed when the fans stopped singing it without so much as a whimper. What amazes me even more is that the same fans see no irony in singing We Are Rangers,which includes the line we hate celtc, fenian bastards and we will chase them everywhere. Some think it is obviously ok to chase fenian bastards but not to catch them and end up being up to our knees in their blood. Confuses me no end.

Tonto: there are all sorts of reasons for the change/dilution in atmosphere over the years. • More women. • More youngsters • No alcohol in the grounds And, for me the three biggest culprits 1. The disappearance of terracing. 2. The displacement of friends around the ground with the advent of all seater stadia. 3. The chronically dire nature of competition and quality of fitba on offer at most matches. Without a doubt but the main reason is the lack of fans willing to sing. You don't have to have had a drink, be standing or sitting with your friends to get behind your team. They're just excuses although there is no argument with number 3. However, the fact is that our fans are now scared to sing songs that have always been regarded as traditional Rangers songs.

Do they? I talk with fellow Bears all the time - I don't know if I've ever had a conversation about feeling shame over our past. I certainly don't feel that way. TBB is the perfect example of something it would appear that our fans are ashamed of from our past. We all sung it, we all knew what the words were and what they meant but as soon as we're told it's bad it stops almost overnight. Watch any old game from before the last 2 years and whenever we score, lift a trophy or the team needs lifting the first song you hear is TBB. Getting this banned was a major achievement for celtc fans as I have never heard a more rousing football anthem anywhere in the world.

I like the bit where you say atmosphere has worsened because families have come along - is that a bad thing - or are you an elitist male who thinks its only MEN who should attent - because thats how it came across. I used the arguments of womens vote and slavery to show societies change - many fough both these issues but we now see they are sensible and mainstream - and so it will be with religious tolerance, of which you seem to have none. If there is no problem in football why are you so upset about it ? I am overweight (fat bastard actually), like to drink and eat so gald to see all ills in society are at my door - however at least I still can get the energy to do some hand wringing. The reason why football fans are easy targets are because people make it so. Move on with the times! I stated that I have no problem with women attending games although I think that the atmosphere has deteriorated in line with the rise in the number of women attending. If you are asking me what I would rather have at games then it would be either less women and a better atmosphere or women who add to the atmosphere. You are certainly a typical PC, handwringer - where in any of my posts have I shown that I have no religious tolerance? Of course I'm the bigot because I want the children of this country to be educated together as opposed to what I see as the real bigots, the ones who want them to be kept apart. Because I believe that Rangers should be allowed to celebrate our protestant heritage, culture and traditions I am a bigot. I think you will even find in ne of my posts that I stated that it was right for the FTP add ons to go. But that doesn't fit the agenda of the PC, handwringing brigade does it? They think all things Rangers are bad and bigoted but that all things celtc, nationalist and republican are acceptable. I believe that there is no real problem in football but where I get angry is with the common perception that exists and is highlighted on a daily basis that a lot of the ills in our society are down to Rangers and their fans when in reality it is not the case at all. You do not seem open to the debate at all and you end with your dig to move on with the times. Yet, you fail to comment on the apartheid education system apart from to say that your daughter has a few non-athiest/non-protestants in her class/school.

Have you always held these views? If so, what did you think of your fellow fans when they were belting out TBB, or indeed, at games now when the Sash or similar is being sung? As at times tens of thousands join in I imagine you must be one of the few who cringe and don't join in and are presumably embarassed at our fans showing their support for the club in this way. Rangers are more than a football club. If we were 'only' a football club then there is now ways that we would have enjoyed such success over the years. It's easy to support a winning team but we have had dark periods between the eras of success and the only thing that has kept us going during those lean times has been the hard core, loyalist support. Indeed, if it was not for this support then who knows where we would be now and what our history would look like. As for being a historian or politcian, there is much more to Rangers than just the matches that we have played. Our traditions and culture have resulted in the club being the most succesful and one of the most popular in the world. Breaking the law, drunkenness or downright thuggery by individuals purporting to be Rangers fans is unacceptable but should not be used to cloud our history, traditions or culture. I have never been ashamed of being a Rangers fan although I have often been ashamed that others are Rangers fans. I wont reply for Dado but I will answer the questions. I have had a season ticket for 22 years - I used to sing BB with gusto, until society moved on. I became aware, though debate that I was a 90 minute bigot and I did let my football influence my decisions on these things, so I took stock and decided that was not the person I was, nor wanted to be - so now I desist. I now take responsibility for my individual actions and that does NOT involve aligning my politics or religion with my football team. What keeps me going about our history is our traditions of sportsmanship, competitivness and winning mentality. These are the traditions and history I want to be and am proudly associated with. The bigotry and unionist causes have nothing to do with my support of the team - I may have been nearly lulled into the trap that I though they were, but they aren't. Life moves on, we are redefining the 'support' - and some view the change with distrust but I embrace it. I have said this before and will say it again - 'Take away the football from Rangers and you have nothing - take away the religion and the politcis and you are still left with the greatest football team on the planet' I don't mean to be disrespectful but in your post you have shown yourself to be a hypocrite, someone who is unable to think for himself and someone who is unduly influenced by others opinion of you. And this line - society has moved on - how, in what way has it moved on? celtc supporters singing about the IRA; a minutes applause for the war dead; apartheid schooling; glorification of the potato famine and rebeliing against the crown of this country; false outrage at mocking this glorification of the potato famine; out of control stabbings, drugs, drunkenness and obesity not getting the same press as 'sectarian Rangers'. etc etc Tell me again how has society moved on? If society had moved on then: kids of all races and religions would go to school together; there would be no public support of banned terrorist organisations; tributes to the dead would be observed with respect and dignity; MOPES would have a sense of humour; knife crime, drugs, drunkenness and obesity would be the exceptions rather than the norm I presume that the people who called you a 90 minute bigot supported a different team. Society has moved on - whether you want to acknowledge it or not - women have the vote - and now many women attend the games (but perhaps you feel it should be a male working class only club as well.) Coloureds are no longer slaves, miners no longer tenured and racism and bigotry is going the same way - out the door. As for the purile argument of 'they' get awawy singing 'thier' songs - what nonsense. Kids of all races and religions do go to school together (and while there may be Catholic schools, at the school my Daughter goes to there are many Catholics as well as muslims, seiks and predominately protestant (actually predominantly athiest). But even if faith schools were the norm - what the fuck has that got to do with Football - nothing! It was I who realised I was a 90 minute bigot and I sought to change (see previous post) - life moves on - lets hope it doesn't leave you behind. What planet do you live on? Let's look at your comments: Women got the vote in 1918 - how is that relevant to our argument? The only mention I made of women was that years ago our support was mostly male and I make no apology for saying that it was better IMO then. I have no problem with women going to games but the atmosphere has certainly worsened since the support became more family based. Slavery (as we know it) was abolished in the 19th century so again how is that relevant to your argument? As for society moving on just open your eyes and you will see that slavery and tyranny still exists in certain parts of the world. Indeed there are still countries where women are denied the vote and in Saudi Arabia's case even allowed to drive. But as you say society has moved on, all apart from dinosaur Rangers fans like me. As for your comments re: their songs. I take it you have no problem with them singing what they like and getting away with it as long as we don't offend them with our big, bad, proddy words? It's not the singing their songs, it's the sheer hypocrisy and PC handwringers I have a problem with. They can sing what they like and we shpould be able to sing what we like. As the old rhyme goas - sticks and stones etc etc Your best comments however were about the schools. We have a segregated education system in this country, and the majority of a minority religion, albeit a sizeable minority at that, attend separate schools. But it's not really an issue because your daughter goes to school with some RCs. You also ask what has this got to do with football. The sport nothing but in the case of Scottish football and Rangers and celtc in particular it is extremely naive of you to even ask that. In a normal society football and politics and religion shouldn't really mix but here they do. It is part of the fabric of our society whether you like it or not. If it was such a problem for you, why did you choose to support Rangers? The vast majority of our support do so because we are the protestant team of choice and their lot because they are the RC team of choice. Whether that is right or wrong is another argument but it is a fact of life and the true reason why both clubs are so popular and have been so successful over their histories. I'm confused. In one post you state that following conversations with others you realised you were a 90 minute bigot and then in the last post it was you who thought you ought to change. It sounds like you're an ex-smoker and discussing that dreadful habit to people who still choose to smoke despite the views and attitudes of others. You seem to think it's a big deal when in reality Scottish football has no real sectarian problems. Indeed we have probably the tamest set of fans in the world and trouble at games in this country is virtually non existent. The real Scottish problems are knives, obesity, drugs, drink etc but football fans are an easy target. These are real society problems. I've never carried a knife, never done drugs, hardly drink and exercise daily but according to you society has left me behind because I still think there is nothing wrong with singing TBB and standing up for the traditions and culture that made Rangers stand apart and famous the world over. The new PC, handwringing breed of fans really does make me sick.

Things have changed, Minstral. You know it as well as I do. Yes the away support sings all day - but even you couldn't deny that the songs sung are notably different from years gone by. Did the hand-wringers get to them as well? Or is it more likely that most Rangers supporters don't want to harm their own club and have moved with the times. This often referred to, but ill-defined PC element in our change is society wide. Obviously - or it seems so to me - football and it's culture is not excluded. Can you imagine, for example, a show like 'Love thy neighbour' being made and making it to our TV screens in this day and age? Rangers do not exist as some external element in society, somehow not subject to changing values. We move forward, change comes (not always easy or welcome) but I cannot remember a time when that was not the case. Like you, I've been following The Rangers for over 40 years now, there is much of our past I loved, and much of it changed forever. I'm sure you would accept that there will be more change to come. How that pans out - well, we'll see. With respect how can you compare Love thy neighbour with our current situation and banning TBB for example? LTN was racist humour that many, if not the majority, deemed acceptable then. I would imagine that behind closed doors there are still many who hold similar views and in certain company still find such humour acceptable. With regards to our situation, apart from banning the FTP add-ons, there is nothing that needed to be changed. TBB used a word to describe our enemies/rivals that they openly use to describe themselves whilst although we were the orginal team to sing this song/use this tune, we are now the only ones prevented with using it.

Have you always held these views? If so, what did you think of your fellow fans when they were belting out TBB, or indeed, at games now when the Sash or similar is being sung? As at times tens of thousands join in I imagine you must be one of the few who cringe and don't join in and are presumably embarassed at our fans showing their support for the club in this way. Rangers are more than a football club. If we were 'only' a football club then there is now ways that we would have enjoyed such success over the years. It's easy to support a winning team but we have had dark periods between the eras of success and the only thing that has kept us going during those lean times has been the hard core, loyalist support. Indeed, if it was not for this support then who knows where we would be now and what our history would look like. As for being a historian or politcian, there is much more to Rangers than just the matches that we have played. Our traditions and culture have resulted in the club being the most succesful and one of the most popular in the world. Breaking the law, drunkenness or downright thuggery by individuals purporting to be Rangers fans is unacceptable but should not be used to cloud our history, traditions or culture. I have never been ashamed of being a Rangers fan although I have often been ashamed that others are Rangers fans. I wont reply for Dado but I will answer the questions. I have had a season ticket for 22 years - I used to sing BB with gusto, until society moved on. I became aware, though debate that I was a 90 minute bigot and I did let my football influence my decisions on these things, so I took stock and decided that was not the person I was, nor wanted to be - so now I desist. I now take responsibility for my individual actions and that does NOT involve aligning my politics or religion with my football team. What keeps me going about our history is our traditions of sportsmanship, competitivness and winning mentality. These are the traditions and history I want to be and am proudly associated with. The bigotry and unionist causes have nothing to do with my support of the team - I may have been nearly lulled into the trap that I though they were, but they aren't. Life moves on, we are redefining the 'support' - and some view the change with distrust but I embrace it. I have said this before and will say it again - 'Take away the football from Rangers and you have nothing - take away the religion and the politcis and you are still left with the greatest football team on the planet' I don't mean to be disrespectful but in your post you have shown yourself to be a hypocrite, someone who is unable to think for himself and someone who is unduly influenced by others opinion of you. And this line - society has moved on - how, in what way has it moved on? celtc supporters singing about the IRA; a minutes applause for the war dead; apartheid schooling; glorification of the potato famine and rebeliing against the crown of this country; false outrage at mocking this glorification of the potato famine; out of control stabbings, drugs, drunkenness and obesity not getting the same press as 'sectarian Rangers'. etc etc Tell me again how has society moved on? If society had moved on then: kids of all races and religions would go to school together; there would be no public support of banned terrorist organisations; tributes to the dead would be observed with respect and dignity; MOPES would have a sense of humour; knife crime, drugs, drunkenness and obesity would be the exceptions rather than the norm I presume that the people who called you a 90 minute bigot supported a different team.

Well. That's some shift in tone from your opening post. I begtodiffer. Where in my opening post did I condone violence or breaking the law? I made the point that our support back then would back up bears in trouble, something I don't see happening today. The 2008 support meekly accept everything that comes our way. Though i agree with alot of your points, i think forums like FF and Rmed are evidence we dont meekly accept anything that comes our way. FF and RM provide a platform to inform about and discuss certain events/issues but I'd much prefer discussions and views from the messageboards to have a wider audience. The biggest problem we have as a club and a support is that we have poor PR and noone of influence to fight our corner. There are many Rangers fans who are apathetic to the situation we find ourselves in but that would have a totally different view if they were aware of many facts/views that are restricted to message boards, which in turn are rubbished even by our own club.

Well. That's some shift in tone from your opening post. I begtodiffer. Where in my opening post did I condone violence or breaking the law? I made the point that our support back then would back up bears in trouble, something I don't see happening today You didn't mention the violence at all. All was well and good according to you in the first post. And you are helping to make my point with your mantra about bears helping bears in trouble. Violence at matches was commonplace then, it is rarely the case now. Football was always a workimg class game although it could now be argued that it is now more of a middle class sport, particulary since the Taylor Report and the introduction of all seater stadia. You interpreted it as my opinion being that all was well and good. It certainly wasn't on the pitch although unlike now, when we are the second best team in Scotland, we were 4th and at times even 5th best behind the 'New Firm' and celtc. Having said that, the matchday experience was far more enjoyable with a much better atmosphere and supporters where Rangers meant the world to them and not just an alternative form of entertainment and leisure pursuit, as is the case with a lot of the fans of today. Violence will never be far away where you have a combination of drink, men and football. My point was that in bygone days your fellow fans would step in if you were ever outnumbered or found yourself in a spot of bother with opposition fans. Nowadays, they are more likely to ignore you and go the other way as has been the case in recent years. A united Rangers support is far better for me than the disunited one that exists today.

Well. That's some shift in tone from your opening post. I begtodiffer. Where in my opening post did I condone violence or breaking the law? I made the point that our support back then would back up bears in trouble, something I don't see happening today. The 2008 support meekly accept everything that comes our way.

1. That's a half-baked fantasy. Sure there were enough times when the Rangers support were good, but there were also enough times when bear would fight bear. Anyone who was there regularly home and away would acknowledge this. So, I have to ask: did you forget, lie about it or simply were not there? 2. Refs make mistakes, but our players and management make more. No ref was at fault for the barrowload of missed sitters/chances recently. In answer to your questions: 1) Half-baked fantasy? In recent years we have seen Feyenoord attack 'family' Rangers fans in Ibrox and Man Utd rampage up PRW. In years gone by that simply would not have happened and our support would have defended fellow bears. Yes, I have also witnessed many occasions where Rangers fan has turned on Rangers fan and not just years ago. Indeed, on almost every away European trip there is some sort of a fallout between, normally drunken, fans and over the years I have seen minor 'handbags' to more serious incidents. This is synonymous with male society over the years and will always be the case where macho men and drink are involved regardless of whether Rangers or indeed football fans are gathered. So, I did not forget or lie and I have been there on many occasions. You knew where you stood with our support of the 70s and 80s, something you certainly can't say today. 2) Your argument about referees is nonsense. Yes our players make mistakes, that's the nature of the game. If a player makes mistakes then they are more than likely to get it in the neck from their manager and may even lose their place in a team, short term or permanently. Officials make mistakes and they are ignored and they go on to their next match bouyed in the knowledge that they are untouchable and unaccountable. What is your view when the players haven't missed a chance, sitter or otherwise, but have instead hit the ball in to the goal only to be denied by the referee/official? MDB at Pittodrie being the perfect example. It only takes one goal to win a game, regardless of how many sitters you miss.

Have you always held these views? If so, what did you think of your fellow fans when they were belting out TBB, or indeed, at games now when the Sash or similar is being sung? As at times tens of thousands join in I imagine you must be one of the few who cringe and don't join in and are presumably embarassed at our fans showing their support for the club in this way. Rangers are more than a football club. If we were 'only' a football club then there is now ways that we would have enjoyed such success over the years. It's easy to support a winning team but we have had dark periods between the eras of success and the only thing that has kept us going during those lean times has been the hard core, loyalist support. Indeed, if it was not for this support then who knows where we would be now and what our history would look like. As for being a historian or politcian, there is much more to Rangers than just the matches that we have played. Our traditions and culture have resulted in the club being the most succesful and one of the most popular in the world. Breaking the law, drunkenness or downright thuggery by individuals purporting to be Rangers fans is unacceptable but should not be used to cloud our history, traditions or culture. I have never been ashamed of being a Rangers fan although I have often been ashamed that others are Rangers fans.

I grew up watching Rangers when there was little or no PC amongst football fans. The Rangers support was predominately working class, male and protestant, although perhaps not orange or a church goer, they were certainly fiercely proud of our culture and traditions. We were also united to the extent that it was all for one and one for all. You knew that if it went off at Easter Rd or Aberdeen that your fellow supporters would have your back and would not hesitate to help a bear or bears in need. That support was moulded in the traditional 'No Surrender' mould and if noone liked us we certainly didn't care. Fast forward to 2008 and that support is no more. Yes, a bastardised version exists but there is no way that anyone can claim it is united, has a No Surrender atittude or has anywhere near the same level of pride in the traditions and culture, without which Rangers could have ended up like Partick Thistle, Queens Park or, heaven forbid, Third Lanark. Words fail me to describe our support's meek acceptance of: the Rangers board and their 'grass a bear' lines; the banning of songs that WE have all sung and were commonplace wherever we played or our fans got together; the celtic mhedia bias; the SPL/SFA treatment of Rangers through administrative and matchday officials; the 'love-ins' with a celtc who despise us and have a dig at us at every opportunity, including their own AGM; It shouldn't have come as a surprise but even I was stunned this morning to read Rangers fans backing the referees and officials and blaming the manager and players. Don't get me wrong I am not delighted with our current manager and some of the squad but they are doing their best to win games and trophies only to be cheated by officials who are continually bending the rules to give celtc an advantage in the title race. It won them the title last season and it has given them a healthy lead despite losing the first old firm game of the season. Incredibly there are now even Rangers fans who think we are paranoid and that Rangers should actually score 2 goals more than the opprosition to ensure that a referee/official doesn't deny us victory. I could even accept the mistakes if: a) the officials owned up to them in the light of TV evidence b) the SPL/SFA actively punished officials for the mistakes they are making by demoting them or suspending them. Rangers fans are being cheated through errors being allowed to happen and without any recourse.

We are undoubtedly the most successful club in Scotland but we are not currently the best team. That was their 10th win in a row today whilst off the top of my head we have drawn 2 and lost 1 in the same period. Of course if officials had done their jobs the stat would be different.

. The problem is that we are being prevented from winning games and they are being helped to win games on a regular basis. We played well enough at Aberdeen to win the game but a goal was wrongly ruled out etc etc. As for your we are the best club in Scotland - we are not the ones sitting at the top of the SPL, playing in the CL or going for 4 in a row. The club is a shambles from top to bottom and this lack of leadership is allowing the SFA/SPL etc to bully us at every level. Too many of our fans have their heads in the sand and you certainly appear to come in to that category.

That's only part of the story - what about the decisions that have went against us? I can accept one or two decisions being wrong because of the humna nature of the game but this is taking on epidemic proportions.

No - they will suspend the referee's with immediate effect by the neck hopefully

I would prefer someone to prepare a list of all the dodgy decisions that have went for them and against us in the last 2 seasons. This could form the basis of a petition to be sent to the SFA, SPL, UEFA, Scottish, Westminster and European Parliaments. A bit over the top certainly but WE need to do something about this. It is disgusting that we are being cheated on an almost weekly basis. Today was a foul and a sending off but the challenge was clearly outside the box. Another week and another dodgy decision goes their way when they are struggling.

Listened to the RR phone in tonight and he had the chance to take Liewell to task about last Saturday's events. He bottled it and instead stuck to the reason he was on, the ST book fiasco, and then got him to give match predictions. Real Radio proved once again tonight that it is a comedy show and that Cameron is a coward. He's had enpough to say all week about the minutes applause etc and then when he had a chance to speak to the monkey he bottled it.

Why would they want to highlight 'cheating' officals/decisions in their favour? I appreciate what you are saying but I am disgusted by what has happened the last 2 seasons. Burying our heads in the sand should not be an option. The best team in Scotland did not win the league last season and the best team in Scotland is not top this season. Decisions last season gave them and/or denied us points which decided the fate of the title and the same thing is happening this season.

We were repeatedly told last season how many games we had to play in such a short time and the impact that had on the players. The main reason such a spell had an impact on the players was because Smith relied on the same core players week in, week out. He had fresh legs in the squad in players like Gow, Buffel, Fleck, Furnam, etc etc but he chose not to play them or rotate the squad. These players would have presumably relishedthe chance of playing their way in to a possible UEFA Cup final appearance or a league medal but they never got the chance and only 1 man knows why. t being Fast forward to this season and we have a bigger squad, including a number of new players signed by Smith in the summer, and he is still relying on the same old faces. I would like to know why Edu, Aaron, MDB and Velicka are not getting a chance to show what they can do for Rangers. Ferguson is brought straight back in from a bad injury, granted Thomson's injury may have hastened his comeback, but what message does that send to the likes of Edu, an international midfielder, who could have came in on a like for like basis for Thomson. These players are being paid a sizeable wage to be Rangers players but are not being used. It is important for them to get chances to play now as we will need them at some point of the season and it is expecting a lot for them to star in key games at the business end of the season when they have hardly featured beforehand. celtc are in the middle of an injury crisis, their squad is being stretched yet they are still winning well and their 5th choice striker scored a double last night. Smith must utilise his squad better. I watch Rangers and at times I struggle to see what Plan A is nevermind Plan B, which never happens as Smith doesn't make any changes when games are not going according tO plan, whatever that may be. Edu, Velicka and Aaron must be wondering why Smith signed them as they don't appear to feature in his plans.

The most worrying thing is that they are on a roll and on current form they are favourites to make it 4 in a row. A result which would surely spell the end for the 3 stoogies, which in turn would mean another change of management and yet another transitional period. The club is a shambles from top to bottom and has been for years through Murray's financial mismanagement and poor stewardship. To be quite frank we need a new owner, a new CEO, a new manager, new coaches and new players. Most important of all, we need the fans to have a new attitude that embraces ambition and raises the standards demanded on and off the field.

This has sadly been the case since McLeish took over. Under Souness, Smith and Advocaat we expected to win games now we hope to win them.