Your Choice..........

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

that is the case with 99% of clubs.

But briton we are not within that 99% - and I am particularly glad about that - its what makes us unique.

You can't change our history, so obviously we are unique....there again, many clubs can make that claim.

Tell me...would you like to return to us playing only Protestant players? (yes I know we have had a few Catholics since the Great War, and many beforehand).

No that would not be inclusive - I want our club to be inclusive whilst still retaining its identity

[Briton 394]

that is the case with 99% of clubs.

But briton we are not within that 99% - and I am particularly glad about that - its what makes us unique.

You can't change our history, so obviously we are unique....there again, many clubs can make that claim.

Tell me...would you like to return to us playing only Protestant players? (yes I know we have had a few Catholics since the Great War, and many beforehand).

No that would not be inclusive - I want our club to be inclusive whilst still retaining its identity

So how do you see that working in practice then? (from a religious viewpoint).

[Boab 73]

And what are these traditions exactly? How would one uphold these regularly, may I ask?

Boab... read it again - I never mentioned traditions.

Im talking about the character and nature of our club - how we conduct ourselves in all matters - our identity

Yep, certainly, D'a you dd not mention the term tradition at all but our Minstral did.

It just seems a regular cliché from Minstral with not much substance behind it and that is why I asked for a more fuller explanation on what he meant.

To be honest Boab this thread was more about a value system and identity - rather than traditions - however I now accept that some of our traditions actually define our identity - and with such definition probably comes not only our identity and character...but also our value system.

I do think as BlueDignity attests earlier that they are interwoven.

I'd still like to see these traditions explained, something the 'traditionalists' seem to find diffucult, and I say this as it was shown in the 100+ thread.

But I also accept that this is not what the thread is about, however give Minstral into a row for straying also! As he mentioned 'traditions' before I did.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

So how do you see that working in practice then? (from a religious viewpoint).

I'm talking about how we operate as a football club Briton - therefore I would expect to see it operate in such a way that our conduct was above reproach, and we displayed tolerance, integrity and dignity in all our dealings.

So how does that manifest itself ?

Well let me give you a couple of recent examples :-

We would not pay off shop staff...shut all our shops....just so that we could make a quick buck from JJB. We would people before money.

We would make realistic offers for players - not conduct ourselves as we have this season - which many admitted was nothing short of embarrassing.

We would exercise financial prudence - but not be slaves to money - for example I was glad the casino project did not come to Glasgow - I am also glad we did not prostitute ourselves all round the world playing show games merely for money.

These kind of things.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

I'd still like to see these traditions explained, something the 'traditionalists' seem to find diffucult, and I say this as it was shown in the 100+ thread.

But I also accept that this is not what the thread is about, however give Minstral into a row for straying also!

I'm not giving anyone a row - just trying to stay on topic and not drift.

But as you have asked let me give you an example - The Loving Cup toast at the turn of the year - thats a tradition which underlines the Pro-Monarchy stance of our club.

[Briton 394]

So how do you see that working in practice then? (from a religious viewpoint).

I'm talking about how we operate as a football club Briton - therefore I would expect to see it operate in such a way that our conduct was above reproach, and we displayed tolerance, integrity and dignity in all our dealings.

So how does that manifest itself ?

Well let me give you a couple of recent examples :-

We would not pay off shop staff...shut all our shops....just so that we could make a quick buck from JJB. We would people before money.

We would make realistic offers for players - not conduct ourselves as we have this season - which many admitted was nothing short of embarrassing.

We would exercise financial prudence - but not be slaves to money - for example I was glad the casino project did not come to Glasgow - I am also glad we did not prostitute ourselves all round the world playing show games merely for money.

These kind of things.

Absolutely nothing to do with religion.

[Boab 73]

I'd still like to see these traditions explained, something the 'traditionalists' seem to find diffucult, and I say this as it was shown in the 100+ thread.

But I also accept that this is not what the thread is about, however give Minstral into a row for straying also!

I'm not giving anyone a row - just trying to stay on topic and not drift.

But as you have asked let me give you an example - The Loving Cup toast at the turn of the year - thats a tradition which underlines the Pro-Monarchy stance of our club.

Thank you, but while some say 'Lets keep these traditions' then we don't now have anything to celebrate our said unionist/monarchy links or do we?

I can think of the Queen on the wall and the UK flag being in the middle of the 5 above the Govan Stand

[Boab 73]

So how do you see that working in practice then? (from a religious viewpoint).

I'm talking about how we operate as a football club Briton - therefore I would expect to see it operate in such a way that our conduct was above reproach, and we displayed tolerance, integrity and dignity in all our dealings.

So how does that manifest itself ?

Well let me give you a couple of recent examples :-

We would not pay off shop staff...shut all our shops....just so that we could make a quick buck from JJB. We would people before money.

We would make realistic offers for players - not conduct ourselves as we have this season - which many admitted was nothing short of embarrassing.

We would exercise financial prudence - but not be slaves to money - for example I was glad the casino project did not come to Glasgow - I am also glad we did not prostitute ourselves all round the world playing show games merely for money.

These kind of things.

Absolutely nothing to do with religion.

That's also what I thought.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

So how do you see that working in practice then? (from a religious viewpoint).

I'm talking about how we operate as a football club Briton - therefore I would expect to see it operate in such a way that our conduct was above reproach, and we displayed tolerance, integrity and dignity in all our dealings.

So how does that manifest itself ?

Well let me give you a couple of recent examples :-

We would not pay off shop staff...shut all our shops....just so that we could make a quick buck from JJB. We would people before money.

We would make realistic offers for players - not conduct ourselves as we have this season - which many admitted was nothing short of embarrassing.

We would exercise financial prudence - but not be slaves to money - for example I was glad the casino project did not come to Glasgow - I am also glad we did not prostitute ourselves all round the world playing show games merely for money.

These kind of things.

Absolutely nothing to do with religion.

We seem to be having a genuine communication problem here.......

If our club has a certain ethical code then we conduct ourselves in keeping with such a code - putting money before people for example reflects a purely business ethical code.

[BLUEDIGNITY 33,746]

And what are these traditions exactly? How would one uphold these regularly, may I ask?

Boab... read it again - I never mentioned traditions.

Im talking about the character and nature of our club - how we conduct ourselves in all matters - our identity

Yep, certainly, D'a you dd not mention the term tradition at all but our Minstral did.

It just seems a regular cliché from Minstral with not much substance behind it and that is why I asked for a more fuller explanation on what he meant.

To be honest Boab this thread was more about a value system and identity - rather than traditions - however I now accept that some of our traditions actually define our identity - and with such definition probably comes not only our identity and character...but also our value system.

I do think as BlueDignity attests earlier that they are interwoven.

Yes tradition and history mould your identity and values that is what Rangers Football Club was built and founded on. That is why they are respected the world over except from some quarters of this country, but that is jealousy because of the RESPECT they command. Lose our traditions and we will lose that respect

[Briton 394]

We seem to be having a genuine communication problem here.......

If our club has a certain ethical code then we conduct ourselves in keeping with such a code - putting money before people for example reflects a purely business ethical code.

Absolutely nothing to do with religion. I resent the implication that you need religion to have morals.

[Boab 73]

And what are these traditions exactly? How would one uphold these regularly, may I ask?

Boab... read it again - I never mentioned traditions.

Im talking about the character and nature of our club - how we conduct ourselves in all matters - our identity

Yep, certainly, D'a you dd not mention the term tradition at all but our Minstral did.

It just seems a regular cliché from Minstral with not much substance behind it and that is why I asked for a more fuller explanation on what he meant.

To be honest Boab this thread was more about a value system and identity - rather than traditions - however I now accept that some of our traditions actually define our identity - and with such definition probably comes not only our identity and character...but also our value system.

I do think as BlueDignity attests earlier that they are interwoven.

Yes tradition and history mould your identity and values that is what Rangers Football Club was built and founded on. That is why they are respected the world over except from some quarters of this country, but that is jealousy because of the RESPECT they command. Lose our traditions and we will lose that respect

Doubt the last sentence

[BLUEDIGNITY 33,746]

And what are these traditions exactly? How would one uphold these regularly, may I ask?

Boab... read it again - I never mentioned traditions.

Im talking about the character and nature of our club - how we conduct ourselves in all matters - our identity

Yep, certainly, D'a you dd not mention the term tradition at all but our Minstral did.

It just seems a regular cliché from Minstral with not much substance behind it and that is why I asked for a more fuller explanation on what he meant.

To be honest Boab this thread was more about a value system and identity - rather than traditions - however I now accept that some of our traditions actually define our identity - and with such definition probably comes not only our identity and character...but also our value system.

I do think as BlueDignity attests earlier that they are interwoven.

Yes tradition and history mould your identity and values that is what Rangers Football Club was built and founded on. That is why they are respected the world over except from some quarters of this country, but that is jealousy because of the RESPECT they command. Lose our traditions and we will lose that respect

Doubt the last sentence

So you just doubt it ? That in itself is an admission of you don't really know isn't it ? Sounds as though our detractors have got some of our fans where they want them ! Uncertain and unsure and willing to give up what makes us strong. I'm beginning to really fear the worst ?

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

We seem to be having a genuine communication problem here.......

If our club has a certain ethical code then we conduct ourselves in keeping with such a code - putting money before people for example reflects a purely business ethical code.

Absolutely nothing to do with religion. I resent the implication that you need religion to have morals.

Resent all you want Briton - because I have certainly not said that....quite the contrary as a matter of fact.

Perhaps you have forgotten the point I made in post 55 of this thread...

Well my question to you Briton is how do you take such an ethical stance without favouring one or other religious sect ? - or to take it a little bit further not necessarily even a religious sect - say for instance a set of ethical standards from a group of humanists for instance.

[bauba30 1]

"drawn from the word of God"?

I think you might be getting a wee bit carried away there.

And I wonder if we couldn't do with more or better spin doctors rather than none?

"A football club which bows to the pressure of society and adjusts accordingly…or which holds true to that which it values".

Not one that is hidebound by the past anyway.

"A football club that is no longer “quintessentialâ€â€¦..but rather and amalgamation of all and nothing…and reflective of nothing in particular."

I find the "quintessential British club" thing a wee bit embarrassing. Not that I have any problem with us being British but to suggest we're more British than every other club in the UK? Using a poncey word? In a phrase coined by some obscure journalist?

"A football club which seeks to find favour with the politicians and power brokers of society irrespective of the cost"

Not at any cost. There are not many things I'd do at any cost. But there's something to be said for trying to exert influence on those in power.

I think Frankie has posed you some questions which you have failed to answer in another thread.

Perhaps you could do him the courtesy.

Deflect, deflect

[Briton 394]

We seem to be having a genuine communication problem here.......

If our club has a certain ethical code then we conduct ourselves in keeping with such a code - putting money before people for example reflects a purely business ethical code.

Absolutely nothing to do with religion. I resent the implication that you need religion to have morals.

Resent all you want Briton - because I have certainly not said that....quite the contrary as a matter of fact.

Perhaps you have forgotten the point I made in post 55 of this thread...

Well my question to you Briton is how do you take such an ethical stance without favouring one or other religious sect ? - or to take it a little bit further not necessarily even a religious sect - say for instance a set of ethical standards from a group of humanists for instance.

So when are you going to explain how religion is going to play a part in your vision of Rangers? A list of nice ethical policies doesn't cut it.

[Saudibear 0]

The Scots arrived in Wolverhampton with the clamour and ungency of an invading army. They wore no arms or armour, but their blood was set on fire with the excitemet of combat to come; there was a hint of the pomp of war about the banners they carried, their fierce battle hymns and their touchy, defiant chant: 'We Are The People'.

To English eyes they must haver been bizarre and alarming - as were the bearded, tattered clansmen who followed Bonnie Prince Charlie south of the border in 1745.

But it was perhaps as well that no one in Wolverhampton made that comparison, for the Scots who had taken over their town that April of 1961 would have given the romantic prince short shrift - would, indeed, have been his most bitter enemies - for their proudest boast is that they are the Loyalists of Loyalists, the Protestants of Protestants.

Their banners had no foreign flavour. They were Union Jacks and Scottish Standards.

The Scots were supporters of The Glasgow Rangers Football Club.

Ten thousand of them had travelled to England to see their club play Wolverhampton Wanderers in the semi-final of the European National Cup Winners trophy.

And Wolverhampton, a teeming industrial town of 160,000 inhabitants who thought they new something about football partisanship, gasped; for they had never seen such fanatical supporters.

All day the Scots paraded the streets, singing, shouting and waving their banners. 'They were the noisiest supporters we have ever known' said a police official afterwards.

The English, who had thought that Scots were dour, phlegmatic, often mournful, lacking humour, looked on amazed.

Welsh choirs had no more fervour than the Scots from the Glasgow streets, the Highland moors, the Lowland Housing schemes as the chanted: 'There's not a team like the Glasgow Rangers.'

Their were tears in their eyes as they bellowed, fervently: 'Follow, follow, we will follow Rangers'.

And the English wondered what it was all about when, now and again, a derisive chorus filled the air: 'Haffey, Haffey, Haffey.' That was the Rangers supporters' way of poking fun at their great rivals, Celtic, for goalkeeper Frank Haffey, of that club, was the man who had lost nine goals at Wembley when England humiliated Scotland the previous Saturday.

Excitement mounted among the Scots when the game started at Molineux Park. Rangers blazed their way into the final by drawing 1-1 with Wolves, whom they had already beaten in the first leg at Ibrox 2-0. And at the end hundreds of Scots swarmed over the barriers on to the pitch to cheer and hug their idols.

When the triumphant Rangers fans finally left on the midnight trains, flabbergasted Wolverhampton people were still asking:

Just who are The Glasgow Rangers? What have they got to arouse such feelings among their fans? Imagine 10,000 supporters travelling all this distance for a club game?

The answer from any of the supporters who were going north tired but happy would have been simple. It would have been this:

Rangers are the greatest team in the world.

I took this from a FF thread. It was written in 1961 and shows just how I still would like my club to be thought of. That is why I am against this change of Identity that some fans wish to exert on us.

[lancedeangers1 287]

Firstly, an excellent initial post and some further positive responses, particulary Frankies. We are everything you mentioned and should always be proud of our history and successes. To uphold our proud traditions we the fans must be pro active and sensible especially around political or religious issues and not delve in matters or situations which bring our name and integrity into disrepute, this isnt surrendering what we once were, its ensuring that our proud and hugely successful club continues to be so.

[minstral 5,375]

The Scots arrived in Wolverhampton with the clamour and ungency of an invading army. They wore no arms or armour, but their blood was set on fire with the excitemet of combat to come; there was a hint of the pomp of war about the banners they carried, their fierce battle hymns and their touchy, defiant chant: 'We Are The People'.

To English eyes they must haver been bizarre and alarming - as were the bearded, tattered clansmen who followed Bonnie Prince Charlie south of the border in 1745.

But it was perhaps as well that no one in Wolverhampton made that comparison, for the Scots who had taken over their town that April of 1961 would have given the romantic prince short shrift - would, indeed, have been his most bitter enemies - for their proudest boast is that they are the Loyalists of Loyalists, the Protestants of Protestants.

Their banners had no foreign flavour. They were Union Jacks and Scottish Standards.

The Scots were supporters of The Glasgow Rangers Football Club.

Ten thousand of them had travelled to England to see their club play Wolverhampton Wanderers in the semi-final of the European National Cup Winners trophy.

And Wolverhampton, a teeming industrial town of 160,000 inhabitants who thought they new something about football partisanship, gasped; for they had never seen such fanatical supporters.

All day the Scots paraded the streets, singing, shouting and waving their banners. 'They were the noisiest supporters we have ever known' said a police official afterwards.

The English, who had thought that Scots were dour, phlegmatic, often mournful, lacking humour, looked on amazed.

Welsh choirs had no more fervour than the Scots from the Glasgow streets, the Highland moors, the Lowland Housing schemes as the chanted: 'There's not a team like the Glasgow Rangers.'

Their were tears in their eyes as they bellowed, fervently: 'Follow, follow, we will follow Rangers'.

And the English wondered what it was all about when, now and again, a derisive chorus filled the air: 'Haffey, Haffey, Haffey.' That was the Rangers supporters' way of poking fun at their great rivals, Celtic, for goalkeeper Frank Haffey, of that club, was the man who had lost nine goals at Wembley when England humiliated Scotland the previous Saturday.

Excitement mounted among the Scots when the game started at Molineux Park. Rangers blazed their way into the final by drawing 1-1 with Wolves, whom they had already beaten in the first leg at Ibrox 2-0. And at the end hundreds of Scots swarmed over the barriers on to the pitch to cheer and hug their idols.

When the triumphant Rangers fans finally left on the midnight trains, flabbergasted Wolverhampton people were still asking:

Just who are The Glasgow Rangers? What have they got to arouse such feelings among their fans? Imagine 10,000 supporters travelling all this distance for a club game?

The answer from any of the supporters who were going north tired but happy would have been simple. It would have been this:

Rangers are the greatest team in the world.

I took this from a FF thread. It was written in 1961 and shows just how I still would like my club to be thought of. That is why I am against this change of Identity that some fans wish to exert on us.

saudibear some have not got a clue what the club means to certain fans, yet your post explains what the club means and what our fans were all about. but as i said we have to many do gooders amongst our support who have never experienced being with a crowd that went to wolverhamton that day, and you know what,let them carry following rangers the way they want to as thats their choice, for i can always say i have been with the best of the rangers fans, and there are lots of them on this board , but for all the do gooder fans you dont know what you have missed.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

So when are you going to explain how religion is going to play a part in your vision of Rangers? A list of nice ethical policies doesn't cut it.

I never said it would...... I said I would like it to but as I said in the opening post their is a choice.

How it would play a part would be in the manner we conduct ourselves as a club....how we act...what we consider important.

For instance I am immensely proud of the way our club regularly acknowledges the importance of Rememberance Day.....how it goes out of its way to acknowledge the sacrifice of those who defended this country - I realise that such an act has little or no religious links or overtones - but it is all part of the character and identity which makes us "quintessential".

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

I see from another thread we are now involved in some way in a corruption investigation - I think this underlines the requirement for an ethical code in all our conduct and affairs.

[Ibroxblue 122]

He may have a good CV but I'll wager only a tiny percentage of our support had heard of him before the "quintessential" thing (and it's probably still a small minority who could tell you who he is). So "obscure" is an accurate description.

Such a blatant disregard for the knowledge of your fellow support. Nothing cool about that negative generalisation, I'm afraid.

I'd have thought many Rangers fans would be aware of Randall. Can't say business or politics is my forte but I certainly knew who he was as did any bear I knew. But then I tend to be a bit more positive about our support and club.

I do note you concentrating on only one very small addendum to my post again though instead of the main thrust.

There's nothing sinister about it. I responded to the comment that was directed at my previous message.

And I stand by my contention that Randall was and remains an obscure figure as far as most of our support is concerned. That says nothing derogatory about me (much as you might like it to) or about our support - it's about the type of job Randall does (he's a specialist journalist who has been based down south).

[BLUEDIGNITY 33,746]

I see from another thread we are now involved in some way in a corruption investigation - I think this underlines the requirement for an ethical code in all our conduct and affairs.

Now you can see the need for values D'A, if Murray has lost sight of then then we are in the shit!

[bauba30 1]

So when are you going to explain how religion is going to play a part in your vision of Rangers? A list of nice ethical policies doesn't cut it.

I never said it would...... I said I would like it to but as I said in the opening post their is a choice.

How it would play a part would be in the manner we conduct ourselves as a club....how we act...what we consider important.

For instance I am immensely proud of the way our club regularly acknowledges the importance of Rememberance Day.....how it goes out of its way to acknowledge the sacrifice of those who defended this country - I realise that such an act has little or no religious links or overtones - but it is all part of the character and identity which makes us "quintessential".

So again no religious link. Can you give specific examples of what behaviours that are associated with religion/protestant fait that are vital in how we move forward as a club?

[bauba30 1]

I see from another thread we are now involved in some way in a corruption investigation - I think this underlines the requirement for an ethical code in all our conduct and affairs.

I agree, but what has that to do with religion?