New Song

[Dado 334]

both GSTQ & FOS are shocking anthems, slow, dirges that do nothing to get the heart pumping. Much as i hate Rule Brittannia that is a much better, more up tempo song for a stadium.

Rule Britannia is more up tempo than FOS?

Of course it is! Open your ears!

Its much more fast and upbeat!

[bauba30 1]

Did you not ready my earlier post, RP? Seems strange to ignore it given it already answered your point. I'll try again:

The 4th verse you speak of was added in the mid 18th century and disposed of very quickly and GStQ (or King) then adopted by the whole nation as the national anthem. It hasn't been sung since then and is certainly not sung now. Only the first verse is ever sung at events although the 3rd verse is occasionally used at the Proms. Nothing offensive in it.

Meanwhile, the FoS was composed relatively recently in comparison and any discriminatory (that is the in-vogue term) lyrics are still indeed sung.

The ironic thing in this is that RP tells us to lighten up quite often in this forum, that we are too easily offended yet is offended by a verse from a song in the 18th century that isnt even sung today.

So all things being equal then, FOS is not offensive and should be sung at Ibrox - you would agree?

FOS does not offend me one bit.

I disagree that it "should" be sung at Ibrox, no one should be forcing us to sing anything.

Its a bit of a dirge though, I think Scotland could do with ditching it for a better anthem, never mind Rangers taking it on.

Glad to see you are not offended because as far as I can see the song is about celebrating our guys and the sacrifice they made to make us a free country. Also lyrics like, "Those Days are past now, and in the past, they must remain" tell of the need to put this special kind of tribal hatred in the past where it belongs.

So celebrate our history but without the hatred.

Yeah, you are right, why would we need a message such as this? it is absurd to the max!

Personally, I think it would be fantastic to hear it sung at Ibrox - maybe we do both Rule Britannia and FOS back to back - make it a regular thing, to show outsiders that we are inclusive and we are proud to be Scottish within the UK

I think its a bit of a dream land you are living in to be honest mate, FOS will never be sung at Ibrox unless its by the opposition.

I dont think it would ever catch on, just the feeling I get from inside the ground

spot on it will never be sung at ibrox.

LOL - it already has been - maybe not by you my prehistoric friend but still..

[bauba30 1]

Frankie, exactly what lyrics in FOS offend you?

I don't recall saying any lyrics offended me?

Some people, particularly our English fans (of which we have a fair few), may find the lyrics discriminatory given the references to the Battle of Bannockburn and sending Edward 'hame to think again'.

The lyrics of the song are obviously very nationalistic and it would surprise me if the song were ever to gain popularity at Ibrox.

I've certainly never heard it sung but GStQ and Rule Brittania do seem reasonably popular.

Frankie - sorry mate but saying FOS is nationalistic is liek saying the Sash is sectarian. For years we have defended the Sash, Derrys Walls and the like with, what lyrics are sectarian? And of course, none of them are.

Same argument with FOS - the only reason it isnt accepted, and you know this, is because the hard liners in our support refuse to bend one inch from their political entrenchment

[Dado 334]

LOL - it already has been - maybe not by you my prehistoric friend but still..

Cut out the personal insults, this is exactly how these threads deteriorate.

It stops now.

[bauba30 1]

both GSTQ & FOS are shocking anthems, slow, dirges that do nothing to get the heart pumping. Much as i hate Rule Brittannia that is a much better, more up tempo song for a stadium.

Rule Britannia is more up tempo than FOS?

Of course it is! Open your ears!

Its much more fast and upbeat!

Jeesh!

Not even close. Try buying the actual recording and compare it to Rule Britannia which is a nice enough ditty but takes about a fortnight apart from one line

[bauba30 1]

LOL - it already has been - maybe not by you my prehistoric friend but still..

Cut out the personal insults, this is exactly how these threads deteriorate.

It stops now.

:kiss1:

[Dado 334]

both GSTQ & FOS are shocking anthems, slow, dirges that do nothing to get the heart pumping. Much as i hate Rule Brittannia that is a much better, more up tempo song for a stadium.

Rule Britannia is more up tempo than FOS?

Of course it is! Open your ears!

Its much more fast and upbeat!

Jeesh!

Not even close. Try buying the actual recording and compare it to Rule Britannia which is a nice enough ditty but takes about a fortnight apart from one line

Flower of Scotland is sooooo slow, I disagree on this one!

[bauba30 1]

both GSTQ & FOS are shocking anthems, slow, dirges that do nothing to get the heart pumping. Much as i hate Rule Brittannia that is a much better, more up tempo song for a stadium.

Rule Britannia is more up tempo than FOS?

Of course it is! Open your ears!

Its much more fast and upbeat!

Jeesh!

Not even close. Try buying the actual recording and compare it to Rule Britannia which is a nice enough ditty but takes about a fortnight apart from one line

Flower of Scotland is sooooo slow, I disagree on this one!

The way it gets played by some bands, sure it is - when it is played right, it stirs the blood

Actually, I would rather have Scots Wha Hae - but thats just me

Incidentally, YNWA is a dirge also, but is fantastic to hear live - tempo aint everything

[Frankie 505]

Frankie - sorry mate but saying FOS is nationalistic is liek saying the Sash is sectarian. For years we have defended the Sash, Derrys Walls and the like with, what lyrics are sectarian? And of course, none of them are.

Same argument with FOS - the only reason it isnt accepted, and you know this, is because the hard liners in our support refuse to bend one inch from their political entrenchment

Are you seriously suggesting a national anthem isn't nationalistic? FoS is extremely nationalistic and that's why it's content has been debated for a number of years now - even Joke McConnell wanted rid of it.

Further, IIRC, you have suggested DW isn't suitable for singing at Ibrox yet you're happy with FoS because 'as far as you can see the song is about celebrating our guys and the sacrifice they made to make us a free country.' You do see the irony in that statement?

Not sure what you mean about 'hard-liners' in our support and their 'political entrenchment' either. A rather large portion of our support (and club including our chairman) are proud Unionists. I doubt all are hard-line and I also doubt all are entrenched.

Surely, they are entitled to their opinion?

[minstral 5,375]

both GSTQ & FOS are shocking anthems, slow, dirges that do nothing to get the heart pumping. Much as i hate Rule Brittannia that is a much better, more up tempo song for a stadium.

Rule Britannia is more up tempo than FOS?

Of course it is! Open your ears!

Its much more fast and upbeat!

Jeesh!

Not even close. Try buying the actual recording and compare it to Rule Britannia which is a nice enough ditty but takes about a fortnight apart from one line

Flower of Scotland is sooooo slow, I disagree on this one!

The way it gets played by some bands, sure it is - when it is played right, it stirs the blood

Actually, I would rather have Scots Wha Hae - but thats just me

Incidentally, YNWA is a dirge also, but is fantastic to hear live - tempo aint everything

it is when your doing the ockey cockey.

[scottishtuner 0]

Rule Brittania is great to hear live but it is not very up tempo.

[bauba30 1]

Frankie - sorry mate but saying FOS is nationalistic is liek saying the Sash is sectarian. For years we have defended the Sash, Derrys Walls and the like with, what lyrics are sectarian? And of course, none of them are.

Same argument with FOS - the only reason it isnt accepted, and you know this, is because the hard liners in our support refuse to bend one inch from their political entrenchment

Are you seriously suggesting a national anthem isn't nationalistic? FoS is extremely nationalistic and that's why it's content has been debated for a number of years now - even Joke McConnell wanted rid of it.

Further, IIRC, you have suggested DW isn't suitable for singing at Ibrox yet you're happy with FoS because 'as far as you can see the song is about celebrating our guys and the sacrifice they made to make us a free country.' You do see the irony in that statement?

Not sure what you mean about 'hard-liners' in our support and their 'political entrenchment' either. A rather large portion of our support (and club including our chairman) are proud Unionists. I doubt all are hard-line and I also doubt all are entrenched.

Surely, they are entitled to their opinion?

Yeah, because mcConnell was always right. He is the guy that hated us and wanted to hit us hard whenever he could.

FOS is not the national anthem Frankie - you know that right? But even so, it is nationalistic, but pro-scottish as opposed to anti english - big difference there, the lyrics of the song say it all. We are not up to our knees in English blood anywhere in the song

As far as DW, that was the point I was making, thank you for backing me up on that. Lyrically, DW, the Sash and FOS cannot be classed as sectarian or racist. They cant. So sing em all I say! I would like though to see us celebrate the country of our origin though - we are Scottish, we play in Scotland in the Scottish Leagues, enter the Scottish Cups - Our home grown players play for Scotland and we represent Scotland in Europe. I would love to see a concerted effort to celebrate this on matchdays, maybe as part of a British deal where banners and songs in the support of both are equally prevalent

You doubt all are entrenched? maybe - would you agree that most are?

[bauba30 1]

both GSTQ & FOS are shocking anthems, slow, dirges that do nothing to get the heart pumping. Much as i hate Rule Brittannia that is a much better, more up tempo song for a stadium.

Rule Britannia is more up tempo than FOS?

Of course it is! Open your ears!

Its much more fast and upbeat!

Jeesh!

Not even close. Try buying the actual recording and compare it to Rule Britannia which is a nice enough ditty but takes about a fortnight apart from one line

Flower of Scotland is sooooo slow, I disagree on this one!

The way it gets played by some bands, sure it is - when it is played right, it stirs the blood

Actually, I would rather have Scots Wha Hae - but thats just me

Incidentally, YNWA is a dirge also, but is fantastic to hear live - tempo aint everything

it is when your doing the ockey cockey.

is that what you guys call it nowadays?

[bauba30 1]

Rule Brittania is great to hear live but it is not very up tempo.

Thank you! A fellow music lover lol

[ricardopatrese 0]

Did you not ready my earlier post, RP? Seems strange to ignore it given it already answered your point. I'll try again:

The 4th verse you speak of was added in the mid 18th century and disposed of very quickly and GStQ (or King) then adopted by the whole nation as the national anthem. It hasn't been sung since then and is certainly not sung now. Only the first verse is ever sung at events although the 3rd verse is occasionally used at the Proms. Nothing offensive in it.

Meanwhile, the FoS was composed relatively recently in comparison and any discriminatory (that is the in-vogue term) lyrics are still indeed sung.

hey frankie,

yeah - sorry about that. I got bored reading these pages until I cam across this point and then felt compelled to respond.

I didn't know that, about that lyric being a later addition. interesting to know. are you suggesting that because it was introduced by the english and later withdrawn that we should no longer feel offended by it?

interesting standpoint.

I guess that's just one of the many reasons the english were so adept at marching all over the world and stamping their footprints wherever they saw fit.

[minstral 5,375]

Rule Brittania is great to hear live but it is not very up tempo.

Thank you! A fellow music lover lol

you should hear it at the last night of the proms it sounds fantastic.

[Coopermania 1]

Personally, I like FOS, I have nothing against it. I think its appropriate at Scotland games, I think its uplifting (though I know some people dont) but Rangers games, Rangers songs only for me.

Question is, whats the alternative to FOS ? 500 miles ?

[Thermopylae 15,287]

I don't think many Rangers have have that close links to England, i beleive that that is a sweeping generalisation which has grown legs.

Personally, i like the idea (but then .. i made the first post, so agreeing with myself is no big surprise !!!)

Would you not find it a little strange to have a song about fighting the English in a stadium where the flag of the union with England has pride of place above both the Struth and Govan stands?

[bauba30 1]

Rule Brittania is great to hear live but it is not very up tempo.

Thank you! A fellow music lover lol

you should hear it at the last night of the proms it sounds fantastic.

Always got pissed at when the Proms was on TV, it meant Match of the Day or Sportscene was 90 mins later than usual. I mean, it was bad enough waiting for Starsky and Hutch to end without that as well!

[bauba30 1]

I don't think many Rangers have have that close links to England, i beleive that that is a sweeping generalisation which has grown legs.

Personally, i like the idea (but then .. i made the first post, so agreeing with myself is no big surprise !!!)

Would you not find it a little strange to have a song about fighting the English in a stadium where the flag of the union with England has pride of place above both the Struth and Govan stands?

That's your problem, you think the song is about fighting the English

[bauba30 1]

Personally, I like FOS, I have nothing against it. I think its appropriate at Scotland games, I think its uplifting (though I know some people dont) but Rangers games, Rangers songs only for me.

Question is, whats the alternative to FOS ? 500 miles ?

So you want Rangers songs only

So I suppose that cuts out The Sash, Derry's Walls, No Surrender etc

or does your criteria only apply when it suits?

[Frankie 505]

Yeah, because mcConnell was always right. He is the guy that hated us and wanted to hit us hard whenever he could.

FOS is not the national anthem Frankie - you know that right? But even so, it is nationalistic, but pro-scottish as opposed to anti english - big difference there, the lyrics of the song say it all. We are not up to our knees in English blood anywhere in the song

As far as DW, that was the point I was making, thank you for backing me up on that. Lyrically, DW, the Sash and FOS cannot be classed as sectarian or racist. They cant. So sing em all I say! I would like though to see us celebrate the country of our origin though - we are Scottish, we play in Scotland in the Scottish Leagues, enter the Scottish Cups - Our home grown players play for Scotland and we represent Scotland in Europe. I would love to see a concerted effort to celebrate this on matchdays, maybe as part of a British deal where banners and songs in the support of both are equally prevalent

You doubt all are entrenched? maybe - would you agree that most are?

McConnell was just one example - there are many others.

Of course I know it's not the national anthem but it is used as such at various sporting (and other) events. It is indeed (rightly) pro-Scottish but the words could be construed to be discriminatory and hardly all-welcoming. That's the point and it's a valid one given the current nomenclature of the debate.

Glad you've changed your mind about DW - a song you felt was the opposite of harmless just last month. That and such a quick turnabout regarding the nationalism of FoS is quite interesting. Often change your opinion so quickly? Glad I could help though.

As for the club/fans not being prepared to celebrate being Scottish, well that's another red herring. Look at the card display at the top of the forum - organised by different fan groups. The Union flag is perhaps the main symbol of identity used by the support but the Saltire is always equally welcomed. It forms part of the guard of honour on the pitch and above the Govan stand while many of the flags of the fans have the Saltire within them. I don't know many Rangers fans who are not prepared to celebrate being Scottish as well as British.

As such, I don't get this 'entrenched', 'hard-line' view. Yes, many of our fans are proud to be British. Most of them (if not all) are proud to be Scottish as well. Both opinions are welcomed and it would be ludicrous if they weren't.

However, rightly or wrongly, some songs are simply not deemed appropriate by the fans. That's perfectly fine by me as is it if others such as yourself want to sing FoS at a Rangers game.

[ricardopatrese 0]

I don't think many Rangers fans would appreciate the anti-English references within it.

then where the feck does "rebellious Scots to crush" leave us?

GSTQ - 4th verse.... I think!

How many times have you heard someone sing this 4th verse of GSTQ?

This is the only argument all the wannabe bravehearts have against GSTQ, a now defunct verse, its pathetic.

It's not the argument of the wannabee bravehearts you need to worry about. it's the argument of the ill-informed which is the danger. whether the lyric is in the 1st or the 4th verse is neither here nor there. the lyric was central to the song at the time it was composed and just because you say it no longer matters, doesnt make it so. It matters to me -and a hell of a lot of others with strong highland heritage.

And the only thing pathetic about it is your willing apathy towards supporting a song which celebrates the murder, rape and pillaging of our ancestors -some not that many generations far removed. Think about that the next time.

That verse was sing in 1745 for a very short time being binned, it has no place in the GSTQ we sing today.

If we changed the Billy Boys lyrics to lyrics about Rangers with no add ons would you still be offended by the original lyrics not being sung?

let me try this paint by numbers style for you:

1. "rebellious scots to crush" - many members of my ancestry in glencoe and farther north west of scotland were victims at the hands of the invading/marauding english over the last 5 or 6 centuries and some even close to home.

2. "up to our knees in in fenian blood" - I have no irish roots that I know of, nor do I have any catholic roots (which some on here may see as pertinant) therefore I see no reason whcy I should personally be offended by these lyrics. I can fully understand why they would offend certain section of the Scottish population, catholic, scots/irish or otherwise and therefore I see a perfectly good reason for this kind of thing to be stamped on. after all, they saw good reason (if frankie is to be believed) to retract the "rebellious scots" line 200+ years ago.

3. Before you get on your high horse about being patronised, or however you will no doubt feel you have been hard done to here, (because I can just feel this one coming...) you should think more about how you are going to challenge someone if you don't wish an equally aggressive retaliation.

Lastly, some fans on here have a feckin cheek calling FoS a dirge when you consider WTF GSTQ is.

Im gettin riled now - thie pro-brit attitude in scotland pisses me right off. we stopped the feckin romans for christs sake (no-one else did) yet now we're made to feel as tho we owe the english a livin despite the UK living off the fat of scotland for centuries. what a pissin joke.

[minstral 5,375]

I don't think many Rangers fans would appreciate the anti-English references within it.

then where the feck does "rebellious Scots to crush" leave us?

GSTQ - 4th verse.... I think!

How many times have you heard someone sing this 4th verse of GSTQ?

This is the only argument all the wannabe bravehearts have against GSTQ, a now defunct verse, its pathetic.

It's not the argument of the wannabee bravehearts you need to worry about. it's the argument of the ill-informed which is the danger. whether the lyric is in the 1st or the 4th verse is neither here nor there. the lyric was central to the song at the time it was composed and just because you say it no longer matters, doesnt make it so. It matters to me -and a hell of a lot of others with strong highland heritage.

And the only thing pathetic about it is your willing apathy towards supporting a song which celebrates the murder, rape and pillaging of our ancestors -some not that many generations far removed. Think about that the next time.

That verse was sing in 1745 for a very short time being binned, it has no place in the GSTQ we sing today.

If we changed the Billy Boys lyrics to lyrics about Rangers with no add ons would you still be offended by the original lyrics not being sung?

let me try this paint by numbers style for you:

1. "rebellious scots to crush" - many members of my ancestry in glencoe and farther north west of scotland were victims at the hands of the invading/marauding english over the last 5 or 6 centuries and some even close to home.

2. "up to our knees in in fenian blood" - I have no irish roots that I know of, nor do I have any catholic roots (which some on here may see as pertinant) therefore I see no reason whcy I should personally be offended by these lyrics. I can fully understand why they would offend certain section of the Scottish population, catholic, scots/irish or otherwise and therefore I see a perfectly good reason for this kind of thing to be stamped on. after all, they saw good reason (if frankie is to be believed) to retract the "rebellious scots" line 200+ years ago.

3. Before you get on your high horse about being patronised, or however you will no doubt feel you have been hard done to here, (because I can just feel this one coming...) you should think more about how you are going to challenge someone if you don't wish an equally aggressive retaliation.

Lastly, some fans on here have a feckin cheek calling GSTQ a dirge when you consider WTF GSTQ is.

Im gettin riled now - thie pro-brit attitude in scotland pisses me right off. we stopped the feckin romans for christs sake (no-one else did) yet now we're made to feel as tho we owe the english a livin despite the UK living off the fat of scotland for centuries. what a pissin joke.

so ricardo is it a one way system only, does scotland get nothing from the english.

[Frankie 505]

hey frankie,

yeah - sorry about that. I got bored reading these pages until I cam across this point and then felt compelled to respond.

I didn't know that, about that lyric being a later addition. interesting to know. are you suggesting that because it was introduced by the english and later withdrawn that we should no longer feel offended by it?

interesting standpoint.

I guess that's just one of the many reasons the english were so adept at marching all over the world and stamping their footprints wherever they saw fit.

In terms of your (and others) argument about GStQ being offensive/discriminatory I was merely pointing out that currently it is not.

Go back to 1745 and you'd probably have every right to feel offended. But then relations between Scotland and England weren't so positive as they are now.