Proud of the Orange and Blue

[MacWoodburn 2]

The Gub?

Blue Dignity = Gub Wannabee!

MacWoodburn = Brissybear wannabee

[bjorkland 13]

Perilously close to comparing the OO with Nazism.

Maybe more carefully chosen words would be appropriate.

Not at all, just stating that everything has a past, and that the past doesn't necessarily have to represent the future. BD wrote that Rangers would always be linked with the C o S, etc. I was just stating this isn't necessarily so. I can use another example if you wish, Nazism was just the first that popped into my head, and probably the most obvious example of what I am talking about

Well to compare the OO with one of the most murderous regimes in history is a pretty poor comparion.

If we had been talking about another team and its associations it would have been more appropriate.

Please note I am not comparing the OO with Nazism. What I am drawing reference to is that the German nation has moved away from its past. It's past was Nazism. Rangers past is C o S. Rangers can move away from this past if we the fans so choose. As with everything it will be a majority decision. The past does not dictate our future. That is the point I am making.

But by using such a monstrous comparison you are suggesting that there is something terrible about the OO.

Something with which any human being would want to be disassociated.

If that is how you see the OO then for you it would be a fair comparison, but really if you think through why Germany had to 'move away from its past' it just doesn't stand vis-à-vis Rangers and the OO.

I am suggesting no such thing, I would argue it is you who is drawing attention to it. I could criticize the OO if I wanted, but out of respect I don't, also it doesn't have anything to do with the point I am making.

Germany didn't have to move away from its past, it choose to. If you dislike the Nazi example, what about Germany pre-1933. Germany moved away from it's past towards Nazism. Or what about Rangers moving away from their unspoken policy of not signing Catholics? Or Millwall trying to move away from their past reputation as a hooligan club? Or Damon Albarn moving away from his Brit-Pop past to produce an album of African music?

The point remains, our past does not dictate our future. We can choose to be different if we want.

[WaltersGotStyle 160]

Who cares about about Religion nowadays... I bet you 9 out of 10 people could not even begin to explain where the Protestant and Catholic faiths differ.

I am a proud Scot who loves Glasgow Rangers however I cannot say that I am even slightly interested in gatherings such as Orange Walks. My girlfriend and parts of my family are Catholic so why should I be interested?

Does this make me less of a Rangers fan?

[Jimenez 1]

If certain Rangers fans want to move away from the past and are ashamed of it then so be it!

But to deny other Rangers supporters their right to continue supporting the club as has been the tradition for several decades then likewise they should be free to do so.

I know who is coming accross as the intolerant ones on this thread and they aren't of the bowler hat persuasion!

[Jimenez 1]

Who cares about about Religion nowadays... I bet you 9 out of 10 people could not even begin to explain where the Protestant and Catholic faiths differ.

I am a proud Scot who loves Glasgow Rangers however I cannot say that I am even slightly interested in gatherings such as Orange Walks. My girlfriend and parts of my family are Catholic so why should I be interested?

Does this make me less of a Rangers fan?

I can have a guilt free wank.

[WaltersGotStyle 160]

Who cares about about Religion nowadays... I bet you 9 out of 10 people could not even begin to explain where the Protestant and Catholic faiths differ.

I am a proud Scot who loves Glasgow Rangers however I cannot say that I am even slightly interested in gatherings such as Orange Walks. My girlfriend and parts of my family are Catholic so why should I be interested?

Does this make me less of a Rangers fan?

I can have a guilt free wank.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

The point remains, our past does not dictate our future. We can choose to be different if we want.

Or you could acknowledge that it was a poor comparison rather than reams of dissembling and diversion

[radlord 24]

I am suggesting no such thing, I would argue it is you who is drawing attention to it. I could criticize the OO if I wanted, but out of respect I don't, also it doesn't have anything to do with the point I am making.

Germany didn't have to move away from its past, it choose to. If you dislike the Nazi example, what about Germany pre-1933. Germany moved away from it's past towards Nazism. Or what about Rangers moving away from their unspoken policy of not signing Catholics? Or Millwall trying to move away from their past reputation as a hooligan club? Or Damon Albarn moving away from his Brit-Pop past to produce an album of African music?

The point remains, our past does not dictate our future. We can choose to be different if we want.

And it also remains our past, and can inform and affect our future. It doesn't just disappear.

[BLUEDIGNITY 33,749]

The Gub?

Blue Dignity = Gub Wannabee!

brassybare = Wannabee Gubbed !

[bjorkland 13]

I never said the past would disappear, only that we are not bound by our past as some seem to think. All I hear is that we should be proud of our past, we should respect our heritage. Why?

And the comparison stands btw

[*Manticore* 1,893]

Ach well you're either too dim to realise it doesn't or not man enough to admit you were wrong.

Hey ho.

Like I give a fuck.

[Jimenez 1]

I never said the past would disappear, only that we are not bound by our past as some seem to think. All I hear is that we should be proud of our past, we should respect our heritage. Why?

And the comparison stands btw

Yeah, we should be ashamed of the clubs past.

And the comparison to Nazism is spot on.

Having a hurting summer ?

[bjorkland 13]

Ach well you're either to dim to realise it doesn't or not man enough to admit you were wrong.

Hey ho.

Like I give a fuck.

I'll gladly admit I was wrong if you show why.

[longjohn 0]

I wonder why thousands of Rangers fans, be it in Manchester, Barcelona, Ibrox or Dundee, sing Protestant songs, as well as Rangers songs ? Is it because they want rid of the Protestant identity of the fans? Now that would be nonsensical. Is someone forcing them to sing these songs? Again, nonsensical. Why compare a link between Germany and Nazis, with Rangers and the C.o.S. Where is the similarity between an undeniable culture amongst Rangers fans, and Nazis? Hmmm, a bad choice of analogy there methinks. Maybe all these thousands of Rangers fans who sing the Prod songs, are actually, quite comfortable with the supports Protestant links.

How can Religion be a stifling concept, that holds mankind back? It is a faith. Mankind has searched for faith, for thousands of years. There is nothing wrong with faith. The main obstacle to progress, is the greed of man. Why is one part of the world, binning food, as there is too much, and in other parts, people are starving to death. Why are drug dealers becoming rich, on the back of selling drugs to kids? Just two examples of mans inhumanity to his fellow man. Two of many. If anything, the world needs more people of faith. The Protestant identity of the Rangers support, is as real now, as it has ever been. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing to be ashamed of. That is how it has evolved. There is no evidence that the majority want this changed. None I have seen anyway. Except for a few on this site, that is.

I stated why I used Nazism as an example, if you disagree with it, I can certainly think of others. Again I will reiterate I am by no means comparing the OO to Nazism. See here is the problem for both of us. None of us actually has any hard figures to go with, you thousands, I could say tens of thousands, but nothing can back us up. Yes there were many in Manchester who sang the songs in question. The were also many who did not. And one can sing a song without embracing its meaning. Many people get caught up in the moment. What the issue is with is Rangers continuing to be a protestant club. I'm not even sure what that ACTUALLY means? Does that mean only protestants can play for and support the club? Does it mean others can support and play, but must be made to feel outsiders? Why should Rangers be anything other than a FOOTBALL club?

As for religion being a stiffling concept, think of years of halting scientific progress, think of people being burnt at the stake for disagreeing with the Church's stance, think of not being able to think for oneself but being told what to believe. Think of years of hatred, which still continues, towards homosexuals. Think of the oppression of women. Think of the wars that have been and still are fought for the undying belief in some god which has NEVER been proven by any reasonable means. Think of extremists, be it Christian, Muslim or whatever. Think of Scientology. Think of Northern Ireland. Think of Israel. Faith is all well and good, but claiming you're particular faith is dogmatically right, and then excluding those who do not follow it, or whose still forcing them to convert, is ridiculous. Man is fed religion at birth. Very very few people 'find God' later in life. Most religious people were raised in that religion. Does that not suggest that when left to rationally think about things, very very few people actually choose to believe? Anyway, this is getting of track, if you wish to continue this aspect of our discussion, by all means create a thread in the Debate Chamber.

When I find a comparison between Protestantism, and the club, I refer to the fans. I do not mix with those who run the club, but I mix with those who follow the club, and there is a massive undeniable Protestant tradition amongst the Rangers support. What goes on at board level, I do not know. Half of the players are RC's, so what. Most of the fans, and I only go by those I know, are Protestant.

The Protestant Reformation broke down barriers as far as Science and Industry go, leading to rapid growth in technology and commerce. I can think of a thousand things wrong with the world, but this argument, that Religion causes all the problems, carries no weight with me at all. Here are some Big wars which can never be attached to religion, by sane thinking types. World War one. World War Two. Napoleonic Wars. American Civil War. Boer War. etc etc etc. Wars are caused in the main by governments. This current war in Iraq, was started on the premise that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. A blatant lie, by a government. Yet again.

My religion is not perfect, but I would say it is morally above that which has 7 year olds confessing sins (what sins can anyone have at 7 years of age???), which looks more towards the Pope than Christ, which bans condoms, because condoms cause AIDS.(so the Pope reckons), which worship fictitious saints (in some cases), which traditionally has spoke of purgatory after death, and so on. Oh yes, my church is better than that.

All the problems of the world cannot be blamed on Religion, no way. As far as homosexuals go, I think many would find it hard to understand what makes them tick, but I have no view either way. The loving God I believe in, loves all his flock. Including homosexuals. Most of the churches seem to have made allowances in that area. The C of E even has gay vicars. The government, again, was the ones who outlawed and jailed gays. Look for a war, an injustice, anything which is against the interests of the population, and 9 times out of 10, its the government. You know, those upstanding people who fiddle the expenses.

I wont be taking this debate anywhere else. I have had enough of it.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

I never said the past would disappear, only that we are not bound by our past as some seem to think. All I hear is that we should be proud of our past, we should respect our heritage. Why?

And the comparison stands btw

Yeah, we should be ashamed of the clubs past.

And the comparison to Nazism is spot on.

Having a hurting summer ?

D'you reckon he's a live one Jim?

My olfactory organ's playing up, could be the hay fever...

[bjorkland 13]

I wonder why thousands of Rangers fans, be it in Manchester, Barcelona, Ibrox or Dundee, sing Protestant songs, as well as Rangers songs ? Is it because they want rid of the Protestant identity of the fans? Now that would be nonsensical. Is someone forcing them to sing these songs? Again, nonsensical. Why compare a link between Germany and Nazis, with Rangers and the C.o.S. Where is the similarity between an undeniable culture amongst Rangers fans, and Nazis? Hmmm, a bad choice of analogy there methinks. Maybe all these thousands of Rangers fans who sing the Prod songs, are actually, quite comfortable with the supports Protestant links.

How can Religion be a stifling concept, that holds mankind back? It is a faith. Mankind has searched for faith, for thousands of years. There is nothing wrong with faith. The main obstacle to progress, is the greed of man. Why is one part of the world, binning food, as there is too much, and in other parts, people are starving to death. Why are drug dealers becoming rich, on the back of selling drugs to kids? Just two examples of mans inhumanity to his fellow man. Two of many. If anything, the world needs more people of faith. The Protestant identity of the Rangers support, is as real now, as it has ever been. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing to be ashamed of. That is how it has evolved. There is no evidence that the majority want this changed. None I have seen anyway. Except for a few on this site, that is.

I stated why I used Nazism as an example, if you disagree with it, I can certainly think of others. Again I will reiterate I am by no means comparing the OO to Nazism. See here is the problem for both of us. None of us actually has any hard figures to go with, you thousands, I could say tens of thousands, but nothing can back us up. Yes there were many in Manchester who sang the songs in question. The were also many who did not. And one can sing a song without embracing its meaning. Many people get caught up in the moment. What the issue is with is Rangers continuing to be a protestant club. I'm not even sure what that ACTUALLY means? Does that mean only protestants can play for and support the club? Does it mean others can support and play, but must be made to feel outsiders? Why should Rangers be anything other than a FOOTBALL club?

As for religion being a stiffling concept, think of years of halting scientific progress, think of people being burnt at the stake for disagreeing with the Church's stance, think of not being able to think for oneself but being told what to believe. Think of years of hatred, which still continues, towards homosexuals. Think of the oppression of women. Think of the wars that have been and still are fought for the undying belief in some god which has NEVER been proven by any reasonable means. Think of extremists, be it Christian, Muslim or whatever. Think of Scientology. Think of Northern Ireland. Think of Israel. Faith is all well and good, but claiming you're particular faith is dogmatically right, and then excluding those who do not follow it, or whose still forcing them to convert, is ridiculous. Man is fed religion at birth. Very very few people 'find God' later in life. Most religious people were raised in that religion. Does that not suggest that when left to rationally think about things, very very few people actually choose to believe? Anyway, this is getting of track, if you wish to continue this aspect of our discussion, by all means create a thread in the Debate Chamber.

When I find a comparison between Protestantism, and the club, I refer to the fans. I do not mix with those who run the club, but I mix with those who follow the club, and there is a massive undeniable Protestant tradition amongst the Rangers support. What goes on at board level, I do not know. Half of the players are RC's, so what. Most of the fans, and I only go by those I know, are Protestant.

The Protestant Reformation broke down barriers as far as Science and Industry go, leading to rapid growth in technology and commerce. I can think of a thousand things wrong with the world, but this argument, that Religion causes all the problems, carries no weight with me at all. Here are some Big wars which can never be attached to religion, by sane thinking types. World War one. World War Two. Napoleonic Wars. American Civil War. Boer War. etc etc etc. Wars are caused in the main by governments. This current war in Iraq, was started on the premise that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. A blatant lie, by a government. Yet again.

My religion is not perfect, but I would say it is morally above that which has 7 year olds confessing sins (what sins can anyone have at 7 years of age???), which looks more towards the Pope than Christ, which bans condoms, because condoms cause AIDS.(so the Pope reckons), which worship fictitious saints (in some cases), which traditionally has spoke of purgatory after death, and so on. Oh yes, my church is better than that.

All the problems of the world cannot be blamed on Religion, no way. As far as homosexuals go, I think many would find it hard to understand what makes them tick, but I have no view either way. The loving God I believe in, loves all his flock. Including homosexuals. Most of the churches seem to have made allowances in that area. The C of E even has gay vicars. The government, again, was the ones who outlawed and jailed gays. Look for a war, an injustice, anything which is against the interests of the population, and 9 times out of 10, its the government. You know, those upstanding people who fiddle the expenses.

I wont be taking this debate anywhere else. I have had enough of it.

As I said, this is off topic, so I'll leave it at this. If you do want to continue however I'd be more than happy to do so.

However you never answered my question of what a PROTESTANT club actually is? Nor why Rangers shouldn't simply be a FOOTBALL club?

[bjorkland 13]

I never said the past would disappear, only that we are not bound by our past as some seem to think. All I hear is that we should be proud of our past, we should respect our heritage. Why?

And the comparison stands btw

Yeah, we should be ashamed of the clubs past.

And the comparison to Nazism is spot on.

Having a hurting summer ?

D'you reckon he's a live one Jim?

My olfactory organ's playing up, could be the hay fever...

I was wondering how long it would be...

[Jimenez 1]

Seems to be adopting the standard terrorist sites tactics of associating anything Rangers/protestant with racism/nazism.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it's a mutated t*** IMO.

I've already reported him to Admin.

[Frankie 505]

I think I've already politely asked for people to keep the thread on topic and avoid the pointless name-calling.

I won't ask again.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

Seems to be adopting the standard terrorist sites tactics of associating anything Rangers/protestant with racism/nazism.

Aye true, he should be banned for that if nothing else.....

[Jimenez 1]

I'm not name calling, I'm giving my opinion.

If you are happy to have a poster on this site state 'why should we proud of our past' and link our club with the most evil organization ever then that is entirely up to you and your team.

Can only speak for myself here though and say it reflects poorly on the site.

[Frankie 505]

Personally I find accusations of timposters tedious just because people may have a view contrary to that of the majority.

Sure, the example the chap gave was a bad one but some of his points are interesting and, if people disagree, then they should challenge his views via sensible debate not boring allegations.

Now, on-topic please.

[Frankie 505]

I never said the past would disappear, only that we are not bound by our past as some seem to think. All I hear is that we should be proud of our past, we should respect our heritage. Why?

We should be proud of our history and respect it because it has got us where we are today - Scotland's most successful club and the most successful club domestically in the world.

Sure, there are aspects which we may not glory in but to write off over 135 years of heritage because of them is simply disingenuous.

[Jimenez 1]

I find Rangers Media's stance on the timposter accusation a bit odd but ho hum. If someone on here is using carbon copy arguments to that that they use on terrorist sites and in effect label our support bigoted/racist then we can't point out the similarities and come to an obvious conclusion to save their feelings being hurt ?

[Frankie 505]

I find Rangers Media's stance on the timposter accusation a bit odd but ho hum. If someone on here is using carbon copy arguments to that that they use on terrorist sites and in effect label our support bigoted/racist then we can't point out the similarities and come to an obvious conclusion to save their feelings being hurt ?

People don't want interesting debates spoiled by tedious name-calling. IMO, it may also put off new people posting and create an environment where posters with contrary views will avoid airing them.

The guy didn't label anyone racist - he just made a bad analogy which is (and has been) easily challenged. As have the other weak parts of his point of view.

Much better to do that than resort to playground tactics. But that's only my personal opinion.

If you have an issue with that policy, I suggest you take it up with admin who can (and do) over-rule me...