Come on Scotland - do us proud !

[Wienblue 26]

I am a bit of an "armchair fan" when it comes to Scotland but i am proud of my country all the same.

But that chant that does my head in is "stand up if you hate England". Sorry, but no matter what anyone says, it is racism of the highest order. By singing that you are basically saying that you despise everything about England and the English people. And to call it banter is absolutely wrong. If it was simply banter then the word "hate" would not come into play, same way as when we sing "stand up if you hate Celtic", it is not banter it is unadulterated hatred.

I don't know how anyone can chant such a thing and actually believe it to be banter. As for Flower of Scotland, i have no problem with it. To me it is about as bad as The Sash and that has been proved to be perfectly acceptable by the Scottish Courts.

I used to follow a Scottish ice Hockey team and when we played in England we would do the Stand Up If You Hate England chant. Strangely, we never had a problem, indeed, it was usually met with laughter and good will by the home fans

IMO the real bigots are the ones who have an agenda and try to make out that this stuff is bigoted. Comparing this chant to FTP or Fenian Blood is just so wrong that I really am beginning to lose all hope for you and anyone else who feels the same

As far as i can see you are the only one who has compared "Stand up if you hate England" to FTP and the likes. What does that say?

So by your logic it would be perfectly acceptable for us all to stand up at Ibrox and shout "stand up if you hate Ireland"? Because really that is what you are saying.

I am not in favour of any sort of sectarian or racist chants, as you would know if you read any of my posts. But once again, just like th journos, you have managed to turn an argument which has nothing to do with our own problems into one which is somehow lnked to ours. Talk about having no hope for people.

'

Because it is plain to see that your argument is driven by Rangers own problems. They are picking on us mammy, so we'll get them tae! So bloody childish. If Uefa hadn't targeted us and we were still able to sing the Billy Boys then this thread would not exist. You know it. The thread should be titled "Sour Grapes"

Again, it is a case where Rangers fans cannot defend their own actions so they try to deflect the blame by saying other teams do it too - if Celtic were playing today you would be glued to the box looking for any IRA references. Pathetic

Used to be a time when we would simply watch the football. Thats what I will be doing today, dont know about anyone else. I'll be cheering the country of my birth today - come on Scotland

BAUBA -

The current predicament the Gers now face is rightly, yes rightly on the table. Indefensible and we both concur. Accordingly, we must highlight other injustices - together and learn for the good of society.

However, in a democracy where - fairness, equality, transparency and balance are enshrined - we also need to equally assess other societal issues and not for the sake of peace and quiet turn a blind eye to others who may err. If we did. that would not be fair, but corrupt.

It's only by analysing, assessing and addressing these issues - can we as a nation learn. But that learning has to be factual, dispassionate and fair and if that means that we - challenge the behaviour of Scottish racist fans or fans of other clubs or countries - so be it ! The red card as UEFA rightly suggest needs to be shown to all these people who affiliate themselves with our flag or anothers and who hijack the process with their offensive flith. I note you are in Chicago, Illinois. I'll ask a question given your US base. How do you think Hillary Rodham Clinton from your wonderful city would feel - if only one group of people - let's say the Afro-Caribbean community in your city were the subject of inquisition all the time and others who had erred, yes erred were allowed to go free. I think I know the answer and she would be the first championing the cause of - equality, proportionality, decency, balance and of course, non discrimination.

Be under no illusion, those Gers fans on here - ain't supporting the alleged actions of the Spanish Police or the alleged actions of the fans in the stadium - they just wish balance and equality and if that means examining "the hard facts and the truth hurts" of your fellow countrymen chanting racist songs against the English or against one religion or another - I'm sure that you will agree with me - there is no play for that, not only in society, but a footbal ground.

As a democrat (in more ways than one) I will along with others, challenge racism in its covert, overt and institutional forms, even where it hurts and causes pain - and when its perpetrated by those who hijack the saltire.

Everyting must be balanced, proportionate and equal - wherever the problem lies - otherwise we are all complicit and part of the prolem.

[BlueIsTheColour 35]

Deflecting, Bauba? As far as i can see it is you who keeps on deflecting away from the issue of the Scotland fans to bring it back to big bad Rangers. This thread is not about the actions of Rangers fans. We all know how wrong the people are who still persist on shouting FTP and up to our knees.

And no, it is not "sour grapes" it is facts. Something that seems to be alien to you. The fact of the matter is that anyone who proclaims to hate another group of people plainly because of the country of their birth is very bitter and twisted. English people are starting to get sick of all the hateed spouted at them by Scottish football fans who clearly have a massive inferiority complex.

Am i any less of a Scotland fan because i detest the actions of the people who follow my National Team? Any less of a Scotsman because i will not stand for any form of Bigotry or Racism?

And i will ask again the question that you done well to sweep under the carpet. By your logic is it perfectly acceptable for Rangers fans to stand up and shout "Stand up if you hate Ireland"?

And lastly, why do you hate England? Seeing as you find it okay to chant that you do, why don't you tell us why you hate England.

[Wienblue 26]

Deflecting, Bauba? As far as i can see it is you who keeps on deflecting away from the issue of the Scotland fans to bring it back to big bad Rangers. This thread is not about the actions of Rangers fans. We all know how wrong the people are who still persist on shouting FTP and up to our knees.

And no, it is not "sour grapes" it is facts. Something that seems to be alien to you. The fact of the matter is that anyone who proclaims to hate another group of people plainly because of the country of their birth is very bitter and twisted. English people are starting to get sick of all the hateed spouted at them by Scottish football fans who clearly have a massive inferiority complex.

Am i any less of a Scotland fan because i detest the actions of the people who follow my National Team? Any less of a Scotsman because i will not stand for any form of Bigotry or Racism?

And i will ask again the question that you done well to sweep under the carpet. By your logic is it perfectly acceptable for Rangers fans to stand up and shout "Stand up if you hate Ireland"?

And lastly, why do you hate England? Seeing as you find it okay to chant that you do, why don't you tell us why you hate England.

BLUE -

Factual and thought provokng post, which certainly questions and challenges the motives of the anti English racists.

Was it Nelson Mandela who said - "by their absence, by their silence - it says it all - they cannot face the facts".

Shame on these people - I did not think their level or racism and hate towards my fellow BRITISH citizen was so bitter and twisted.

Decent people - plese read these posts and if need be - "challenge your conscience" - we have witnessed the true face of overt hate. Shame on you Bauba, your city would be disgusted by your blind hate.

[evenstevens 915]

Racist/Racism

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Just so everybody knows what they're talking about.

evens

[evenstevens 915]

And just so everyone is clear on what defines a "race"

1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.

2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.

3. A genealogical line; a lineage.

4. Humans considered as a group.

Cheers,

evens

[bauba30 1]

Deflecting, Bauba? As far as i can see it is you who keeps on deflecting away from the issue of the Scotland fans to bring it back to big bad Rangers. This thread is not about the actions of Rangers fans. We all know how wrong the people are who still persist on shouting FTP and up to our knees.

And no, it is not "sour grapes" it is facts. Something that seems to be alien to you. The fact of the matter is that anyone who proclaims to hate another group of people plainly because of the country of their birth is very bitter and twisted. English people are starting to get sick of all the hateed spouted at them by Scottish football fans who clearly have a massive inferiority complex.

Am i any less of a Scotland fan because i detest the actions of the people who follow my National Team? Any less of a Scotsman because i will not stand for any form of Bigotry or Racism?

And i will ask again the question that you done well to sweep under the carpet. By your logic is it perfectly acceptable for Rangers fans to stand up and shout "Stand up if you hate Ireland"?

And lastly, why do you hate England? Seeing as you find it okay to chant that you do, why don't you tell us why you hate England.

To answer your question yes, you are less of a fan. Its Big Alecs first game in charge today and a game which we have to win to maintain a chance to qualify for the finals. So you use that opportunity to spout your hate. Thats fine, it just shows where your colors are.

As I said before, I have never met an English person who objects to the "Stand Up" chant. Then again, in todays times, there are always people who are offended about just about anything. Of course if it suits our agenda we will listen to that minority wont we?

Yeah, it is ok to sing, stand up if you hate ireland. Its edgy for sure, but nothing wrong with that in a mature society. Again, if you are offended by that then you have some serious issues of your own.

Why do I hate England? When did I say that? I said I have sang the song - I also have sang, Ive got a luvly bunch of coconuts - but in reality I dont.

Funny thing, when we sang that song at ice hockey games down south, at a few rinks we received a song back that was unflattering to Scots right back at us. And you know what? It was fine.

Again, if you are upset by a song like that, you have some serious problems mate

[BlueIsTheColour 35]

Your post sums up perectly the attitude of the Tartan Army and why they are not seen in good light by many in Glasgow. The fact that you have called me less of a fan for objecting to anti-English abuse shows why alot of decent football fans are put off from going to Scotland games. The Tartan Army believe that if you don't have an agenda against England then you are just as "bad" as being English.

Good to see that although you oppose sectarianism you would be happy for us to sing about how we hate Irish people at Ibrox. Such a hypocritical stance Bauba, it really is. You are just as bad as the Bigots who like to be up to their knees.

To quote a phrase used frequently by another poster in here, "there are none so blind as those who cannot see".

So i am now going to watch the Scotland game and cheer on my country and the team. And all the while knowing that i can do so without being blinded by the hatred of another country at the same time. Shame that you are shackled with that hatred.

And also good luck to England tonight against Israel. And for good measure, good luck to Ireland and Wales too. :pipeguy:

[bauba30 1]

I almost dont have to respond, the hatred in your posts says it all really

The difference between you and I is that I can sing a song (Stand Up...) and not believe it. It's a song - it is a song that the English do not care about, show me one forum with a bunch of complaints from English people - you wont be able to as they simply do not care. They actually enjoy that banter

Glasgow used to be like that, all about the banter. However minds have been poisoned and now it is no longer possible to enjoy banter at a football game in Glasgow, as people like yourself are there taking note of every perceived slight - makes me sick to my stomach. It is one of the worst things about the information age, people like yourself now have a voice.

Like you I am also away to the telly, well, the pcv actually, to watch the game now. But unlike yourself I will be watching the game, cheering on Scotland and will be doing so without a notepad and pencil.

Come on Scotland lets get the three points today, and come on the Tartan Army, lets be loud and sing our traditional anthems.

[BlueIsTheColour 35]

I almost dont have to respond, the hatred in your posts says it all really

The difference between you and I is that I can sing a song (Stand Up...) and not believe it. It's a song - it is a song that the English do not care about, show me one forum with a bunch of complaints from English people - you wont be able to as they simply do not care. They actually enjoy that banter

Glasgow used to be like that, all about the banter. However minds have been poisoned and now it is no longer possible to enjoy banter at a football game in Glasgow, as people like yourself are there taking note of every perceived slight - makes me sick to my stomach. It is one of the worst things about the information age, people like yourself now have a voice.

Like you I am also away to the telly, well, the pcv actually, to watch the game now. But unlike yourself I will be watching the game, cheering on Scotland and will be doing so without a notepad and pencil.

Come on Scotland lets get the three points today, and come on the Tartan Army, lets be loud and sing our traditional anthems.

Where is the hatred in my post? You should know not to make claims without properly backing them up.

There is a line between banter and racism. So it is alright to sing these chants if you don't believe in what you are singing? Many people sang the Billy Boys without believing the words. Is that also fine? Of course it isn't. Don't be so stupid.

I can see it now. Someone is found guilty of racist abuse and their excuse is "i didn't actually mean what i was saying". I am sure that will get them off lighter.

Not meaning what you are singing doesn't make it any less disgusting and vile.

Maybe you, as one person, don't mean what you are saying when singing "stand up if you hate England". But you would be very foolish to believe that there aren't a considerable number of Tartan Army members who DO mean what they are saying. And we all know that if even a minority are at fault, it is wrong. Don't we?