TRS' John gow on todays chants

[AlBear. 8,499]

My issue is after what our club went through we have developed the attitude within the majority of our support that we are at war with Scottish football, our enemies who actively tried to harm us and the people who stood by and did nothing. Never forgive, never forget. Make them pay the same price that we very nearly did.

So now that we feel we are at war with these people we are asking our support to watch what we say and how we act. Well my feelings on this is if we want to stand tall and start thinking clearly over this issue we should start doing the same with our attitude towards every issue our club faces. Is it best for Rangers to spread the feeling we are in a life or death struggle against everyone in Scottish football? That we are at war against people who will sink to any depths to harm our club and then ask us to stand tall and take the morale high ground on just this issue?

If we want to move on and better ourselves no matter what the rest do, or have done, then we do it across the board. We shouldn't hype up the support into a frenzy of siege mentality against everyone and then complain when they go to far.

It's time we all took responsibility and put Rangers first; Everytime.

Whether that's about what songs we sing, what league we play in or how we move on from last year. The majority of our support this season are younger fans, fans easily led but not easily controlled. If we want them to behave and maintain the standards not just expected, but required of Rangers then we have to teach them.

"To be a Ranger is to sense the sacred trust of upholding all that such a name means in this shrine of football. They must be true in their conception of what the Ibrox tradition seeks from them.

No true Ranger has ever failed in the tradition set him."

"Our very success, gained you will agree by skill, will draw more people than ever to see it. And that will benefit many more clubs than Rangers. Let the others come after us. We welcome the chase. It is healthy for us. We will never hide from it.

Never fear, inevitably we shall have our years of failure, and when they arrive, we must reveal tolerance and sanity."

"No matter the days of anxiety that come our way, we shall emerge stronger because of the trials to be overcome. That has been the philosophy of the Rangers since the days of the gallant pioneers." - Bill Struth

These words from our greatest legend mean more now than they ever have before. It's time we ALL started living up to them.

[Iron Curtain 60]

Eugh.

That fucking phrase gives me the heebie geebies. I'm certain spiers shouts that out when climaxing thinking about his mother.

Whataboutery? What does that even mean?.... "Oh you are using precedents now lol"

The stats show that it really isn't an issue in every day life. Sure, preferably there'd be none but that on a subject giving the magnitude it has in this country I believe the stats prove that its as high rank a problem as alien abduction.

If his aim was to deliver a powerful message to Rangers fans...well just do it, no need to be an apologist in advance and offer up these stats that I believe could be fairly easily combated with...other stats. Bet your life there's a whole load of facts and figures compiled by other groups that contradicts your claims that these stats are 'proof' of anything tangible.

Its just such a selective way to open the blog and the words which follow lose a great deal of impact which is a tragedy.

[Mark Walters 206]

If his aim was to deliver a powerful message to Rangers fans...well just do it, no need to be an apologist in advance and offer up these stats that I believe could be fairly easily combated with...other stats. Bet your life there's a whole load of facts and figures compiled by other groups that contradicts your claims that these stats are 'proof' of anything tangible.

Its just such a selective way to open the blog and the words which follow lose a great deal of impact which is a tragedy.

An apologist, God knows how you come to that conclusion? these stats can't be argued with, at least sensibly.

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

Rangers First ! sums it up well

[Iron Curtain 60]

An apologist, God knows how you come to that conclusion? these stats can't be argued with, at least sensibly.

I reckon you'd be surprised, everything can be argued or twisted and rebuffed..More likely someone can produce a different stat that shows the original source info in a different light, that is ABC to any decent debater, politician or even football manager - its absurdly naive to suggest otherwise.

The best option would have been not to include them in the first place then you & I would be discussing the excellent points regarding tradition that Gow also raised, and thanks for posting by the way

[Christchurch Rangers 1,229]

Instead of everyone conversing about another good victory in our long road to recovery we are reading articles in abundance berating the clubs ?

good call

[Mark Walters 206]

I reckon you'd be surprised, everything can be argued or twisted and rebuffed..More likely someone can produce a different stat that shows the original source info in a different light, that is ABC to any decent debater, politician or even football manager - its absurdly naive to suggest otherwise.

The best option would have been not to include them in the first place then you & I would be discussing the excellent points regarding tradition that Gow also raised, and thanks for posting by the way

In what context can a list of sectarian/race related stats by a seriously proactive PR mechanism that is the Police be either disputed or rubbished?

We're going off track here though. John wrote an article whereby he discusses Rangers and sectarianism. To do so he also used widely recognised, verifiable stats to give some background on his piece.

It isn't really the cusp of what he was getting at at all in saying we need to sort ourselves out. Would have thought that much is obvious.

[Mark Walters 206]

good call

Our rise is inevitable. How we carry ourselves isn't.

[topgoalie 637]

My issue is after what our club went through we have developed the attitude within the majority of our support that we are at war with Scottish football, our enemies who actively tried to harm us and the people who stood by and did nothing. Never forgive, never forget. Make them pay the same price that we very nearly did.

So now that we feel we are at war with these people we are asking our support to watch what we say and how we act. Well my feelings on this is if we want to stand tall and start thinking clearly over this issue we should start doing the same with our attitude towards every issue our club faces. Is it best for Rangers to spread the feeling we are in a life or death struggle against everyone in Scottish football? That we are at war against people who will sink to any depths to harm our club and then ask us to stand tall and take the morale high ground on just this issue?

If we want to move on and better ourselves no matter what the rest do, or have done, then we do it across the board. We shouldn't hype up the support into a frenzy of siege mentality against everyone and then complain when they go to far.

It's time we all took responsibility and put Rangers first; Everytime.

Whether that's about what songs we sing, what league we play in or how we move on from last year. The majority of our support this season are younger fans, fans easily led but not easily controlled. If we want them to behave and maintain the standards not just expected, but required of Rangers then we have to teach them.

These words from our greatest legend mean more now than they ever have before. It's time we ALL started living up to them.

Well said Al bear 85,i seem to agree with most of your posts mate,put down in words perfectly for me,again one of my fav. posters....

[Iron Curtain 60]

In what context can a list of sectarian/race related stats by a seriously proactive PR mechanism that is the Police be either disputed or rubbished?

We're going off track here though. John wrote an article whereby he discusses Rangers and sectarianism. To do so he also used widely recognised, verifiable stats to give some background on his piece.

It isn't really the cusp of what he was getting at at all in saying we need to sort ourselves out. Would have thought that much is obvious.

Well then make the message straightforward don't say

"Well we know you're not really bad guys 'cause of stats, and God knows you may even be English yourself and possibly have been attacked by a Scot etc, etc but I'd just like to raise this point"

[TheBluenose1972 1,405]

yes things do seem to get blown out of proportian rather fast dont they

In new zealand no-one would blink an eye at such 'foul' language, there might be a few ruffled feathers but life would go on

Scotland has changed into an odd place, Violent crime is acceptable...singing songs is not.

[AlBear. 8,499]

Well said Al bear 85,i seem to agree with most of your posts mate,put down in words perfectly for me,again one of my fav. posters....

Cheers TG.

[Mark Walters 206]

Well then make the message straightforward don't say

"Well we know you're not really bad guys 'cause of stats, and God knows you may even be English yourself and possibly have been attacked by a Scot etc, etc but I'd just like to raise this point"

What are you on about? He never said that, not once! He quite clearly states that those who contribute to the stats are moronic.

There's no downplay of today's events just solid background.

[Bad Robot 21,512]

It's bizarre.

Certain people talk of apologists as those who don't sing songs at the football that get us into trouble. I think the real apologists are the ones who will keep shouting FTP, keep singing the Sash, and then claim it's because they 'won't surrender to the Scottish Nazi Party' or whatever. Interestingly, the same type of people who will brand anyone who disagrees with them a 'pape'.

There has been a precedent set whereby we can get fined for singing such songs. It does the club no good whatsoever to persist with them. So why do we?

There's nothing wrong or illegal about singing the Sash and there's no reason to stop singing in.

[Non_Sucumbi 876]

So the dearies at ESPN and the viewers were upset by the sectarian chanting by Gers fans.

Simple question, without condoning, the singing; what are the ESPN sound engineers paid for? Easiest thing in the world to mute or filter out the offensive songs.

Or is it a case that MOPEs are listening in to our games just so they can be offended. Perhaps we should change from FTP to Fuk the MOPEs.

[WeDontDoWalkingAway1872 303]

It has to be said though our self policing of our support has always been terrible. I don't agree with banning songs etc. but if it has been, the amount of times I have heard our fans go 'ah well they can't stop us' I couldn't put a number to it.

They are probably correct but it is this sort of attitude that will stop us getting anywhere close to playing to playing in the English league system. The attention Scottish football gets now outside of Scotland bar Old Firm games is virtually nothing, so when we give them a reason(I do find ESPN appaling in all this) the only thing again the bog standard English fan sees is that big bad Rangers fans are at it again.

We have generally been brilliant this season but the standards have been slipping lately and that is where self policing comes in or apparent lack of it. We need our fan groups and representives to engage with the club and/or police what songs can or cannot be sung then notify fans through various means. That way once it has been stated we can then properly self police. It should have been done a long time ago but the current fan organisations are a shambles.

You also can't self police when you can see by going through the several threads on the topic that you can't ;

1) Can't say to the people to stop because you will just face aggro.

2) Therefore next stop would be the nearest steward but then you are a grass.

3) Final step would be to contact the club but that gets you nowhere.

I'd also make one last point that I enjoy every song as much as the supporter but we should all know to just stick to Rangers songs with a few we definitely know that are fine to sing e.g The sash and Derrys Walls.

[WeDontDoWalkingAway1872 303]

....

[bigj9659 4]

Lets keep the head,the club has been through enough crap.Rangers first.

[THE_Ibrox_Preacher 2,812]

.

[Guest Andypendek]

It's bizarre.

Certain people talk of apologists as those who don't sing songs at the football that get us into trouble. I think the real apologists are the ones who will keep shouting FTP, keep singing the Sash, and then claim it's because they 'won't surrender to the Scottish Nazi Party' or whatever. Interestingly, the same type of people who will brand anyone who disagrees with them a 'pape'.

There has been a precedent set whereby we can get fined for singing such songs. It does the club no good whatsoever to persist with them. So why do we?

The answer to your rhetorical question is that the majority of people who do this are thick.

They're part of the The Rangers Family but they are like the family member you usually end up apologising for at parties - you can't get rid of them, you don't really like them but you do feel some kind of affinity with them thru shared ties, in this case to the club.

[pcbear 10,924]

As a club we probably have the most extensive song sheet in the whole of world football, literally hundreds of songs, we all know the couple that are going to get the club beat up from all angles.

I dont see any gain the to The Rangers in persisting with the add ons.

[legalbeagle 3,734]

There is a very good debate that should be had about the legality or illegality of certain things, how it relates to any freedom of expression rights and how far the right to offend should outweight the right to be offended. Despite not supporting most of the songs or chants that are religious or political, I am happy to be on the freedom of expression side of the argument.

However, the guys yesterday were not having that argument, the law is currently what it is, the club ask people to refrain from it and anyone who feels the need to disregard all that needs to take a look at what their motives are.

[trueblueal 2,117]

Lots of people are under the false impression that a song has to be sectarian to be illegal. The law bans offensive behaviour at football. This is subjective and only test cases will establish what is allowed hence a lack of a 'banned list'. For the most part tho its fairly obvious what could be perceived to be offensive. It's a can of worms so I'd urge people to err on the side of caution and

make sure you aren't the one in the dock.

[SectionRedHMS 190]

Eugh.

That fucking phrase gives me the heebie geebies. I'm certain spiers shouts that out when climaxing thinking about his mother.

Whataboutery? What does that even mean?.... "Oh you are using precedents now lol"

The stats show that it really isn't an issue in every day life. Sure, preferably there'd be none but that on a subject giving the magnitude it has in this country I believe the stats prove that its as high rank a problem as alien abduction.

Whataboutery...........another horrible import from that troubled part of the world.

[trueblueal 2,117]

I think the atmosphere created by a crowd singing en mass is more to do with the noise levels and less to do with what the crowd actually sings. If you are at a foreign game and don't know what they are singing about you can still appreciate a fantastic atmosphere. It's about getting the stadium to participate. If everyone sang inoffensive songs together nothing would be lost from the atmosphere.