BJK - does it matter?

[Danny 9]

However, the fallout has been a passionate argument about whether or not Celtic manager Jock Stein knew about the abuse, and more pertinently, whether he kept his counsel on it.

But this is not where my post is trying to go.

It may not be where you want to go with it Danny...but I would suggest that such an opinion is at the very best naive.

Its not a case of whether he knew...or if he kept his counsel private...we know he did both...and as a consequence of such silence and inaction Torbett managed to weasel his way back in after Stein had left.

This is about Rangers fans, not about what did or didn't happen.

My post wasn't going where you want to, and I still ain't going where you want to.

No offence.

[BLUEDIGNITY 34,090]

Danny drop the moral high ground !

There is no moral highground here. None at all.

And yes the best place to make your point is at a football ground especially against our mortal enemies who would use any device possible to destroy us and beat us !

Yes, they would. They really would. So you are proposing that we sink to the same level of amoebas and get back at them in the same way? You're saying we're no better than them? That's a very sad opinion to have BD.

Expect you've noticed that Brazil is still giving us stick on nation wide radio every day despite Jock Stein not protecting him from child molesting not so many years ago. Thats not blind faith thats just pure bigotry on his part, imagine if it had been somebody within Ibrox who had committed the crime then do you honestly think they would forget about it ? No chance ! Plus there's more to come out the woodwork on that one.

This is a thoroughly odious opinion and extremely disappointing. You are basically saying that because Brazil is an absolutely irreprehensible human being who slags us off, it makes singing BJK all the better. Which basically says 'we are singing this song to laugh at Brazil because's he's a **** who was abused by Torbett'.

Please God tell me that's not what you are saying.

So remember BIG JOCK KNEW ! Danny a tip it's beginning to sound like your batting for them.

Is that the best you can devise? A comment calling me 'one of them'? Take a look at the signature of LaudrupRFC if you have ANY doubt where my allegiances lie. And quit the shallow insults which make your own argument incredibly weak.

Your not a journalist, (your not a journalist are you ?) So stop the devisive threads and start scribing positive ones defending Rangers and it's fans because I know you really want to but that wannabee journo just keeps taking over ?

It's called debate, Sherlock, and if you can't engage in it without personal attack, then it's not the conversation mode for you.

Please don't take it personal Danny just trying to point you in the right direction and if you think winding up the celtic fans is odious then I'm sorry it offends you ! But you are in the minority there mate 99.9% of the crowd sing it now and the rest are at the pie stalls. I know your not one of them, but you are not a lost cause yet ! Oh and another thing brazil doesn't amount to a hill of beans but unfortunately he has the ear of the nation on radio and that makes him dangerous to us. He tells lies about us on that. I can't understand why you find the BJK thing a problem ? Oh and another thing expect more lies and spin about us. I told you in June that John Reid was joining celtics board well he did today. We ain't on a level playin field, watch Mr Reid bend the rules for this mob big time ! So as far as I'm concerned BIG JOCK KNEW !

[Ibroxblue 131]

It has been reiterated by the Prime Minister that Stein (and anybody else who is dead) won't get a knighthood, so that one can be put aside.

Stein did do something about Torbett - he kicked him out. And it could be argued that that was a reasonable course of action by the standards of the time. It would seem that other powerful people at Celtic (I won't name them, for legal reasons) were more at fault than Stein. Some of them are still alive. Yet their names are never mentioned. This casts doubt on the motivation for the campaign. Why pick on a dead guy who actually did something about it (even if you argue that it was not enough) rather than living people who didn't take any action against Torbett?

This has the potential to seriously embarrass the Rangers support and even the club itself. I'm not against anyone wanting to discuss it reasonably, write to the authorities or the media, get up a petition, etc. But singing, bouncing up and down grinning, bedsheet banners, scarves, T-shirts? Not at all a reasonable way to deal with such an incredibly-sensitive issue.

[gers_boy_john 2]

Danny give them back there brush and stop sweeping it under the carpet for them,

From newspaper articles I've read on this... Jock Stein DID know

"When I joined as chairman, I was told by Jock Stein to keep the name of Celtic Football Club clean at all times", Ex Celtic Chairman Hugh Birt

[BLUEDIGNITY 34,090]

It has been reiterated by the Prime Minister that Stein (and anybody else who is dead) won't get a knighthood, so that one can be put aside.

Stein did do something about Torbett - he kicked him out. And it could be argued that that was a reasonable course of action by the standards of the time. It would seem that other powerful people at Celtic (I won't name them, for legal reasons) were more at fault than Stein. Some of them are still alive. Yet their names are never mentioned. This casts doubt on the motivation for the campaign. Why pick on a dead guy who actually did something about it (even if you argue that it was not enough) rather than living people who didn't take any action against Torbett?

This has the potential to seriously embarrass the Rangers support and even the club itself. I'm not against anyone wanting to discuss it reasonably, write to the authorities or the media, get up a petition, etc. But singing, bouncing up and down grinning, bedsheet banners, scarves, T-shirts? Not at all a reasonable way to deal with such an incredibly-sensitive issue.

Aye incredibly sensitive to the chancers who covered it up, so lets all be reasonable and keep quiet and pretend it never happened. ?

[Canadaready 9,437]

Just some questions to help push debate forward.

What are chants of BJK hoping to achieve? What are the positives that could come out of the chants? Is there a better way to get the message out? Are there reasons behind the chanting that are not with the best interests of the abused individuals at heart?

[gers_boy_john 2]

Just some questions to help push debate forward.

What are chants of BJK hoping to achieve? What are the positives that could come out of the chants? Is there a better way to get the message out? Are there reasons behind the chanting that are not with the best interests of the abused individuals at heart?

1. Speading the word that Child abuse went on at Celtc Park for 25years.

2. Letting everyone know a so called "Legend" Jock Stein covered up Child abuse.

3. No better way than getting a point across than at a football game, esp with Tv coverage etc..

[Ibroxblue 131]

It has been reiterated by the Prime Minister that Stein (and anybody else who is dead) won't get a knighthood, so that one can be put aside.

Stein did do something about Torbett - he kicked him out. And it could be argued that that was a reasonable course of action by the standards of the time. It would seem that other powerful people at Celtic (I won't name them, for legal reasons) were more at fault than Stein. Some of them are still alive. Yet their names are never mentioned. This casts doubt on the motivation for the campaign. Why pick on a dead guy who actually did something about it (even if you argue that it was not enough) rather than living people who didn't take any action against Torbett?

This has the potential to seriously embarrass the Rangers support and even the club itself. I'm not against anyone wanting to discuss it reasonably, write to the authorities or the media, get up a petition, etc. But singing, bouncing up and down grinning, bedsheet banners, scarves, T-shirts? Not at all a reasonable way to deal with such an incredibly-sensitive issue.

Aye incredibly sensitive to the chancers who covered it up, so lets all be reasonable and keep quiet and pretend it never happened. ?

Not what I said.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Of course the whole unedifying situation could be resolved....

If someone were to state publicly that Stein would not be knighted.... not because we as a country dont do posthumous knighthoods...but because Stein failed in his moral duty to protect children from a child abuser.

End of 2 campaigns - those who wish to knight Stein and as a consequence those who wish to prevent it.

[Airdriebear 0]

What conclusive proof is going to be given if he did know?

Lets face it no one associated with celtic is going to put there hands up and say yes BJK.

It will be ignored, and will go on to be ignored.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

What conclusive proof is going to be given if he did know?

Lets face it no one associated with celtic is going to put there hands up and say yes BJK.

It will be ignored, and will go on to be ignored.

Should we assume then AB that Big Jock kicked Torbetts ass out the door because his trophies were substandard ?

[Airdriebear 0]

What conclusive proof is going to be given if he did know?

Lets face it no one associated with celtic is going to put there hands up and say yes BJK.

It will be ignored, and will go on to be ignored.

Should we assume then AB that Big Jock kicked Torbetts ass out the door because his trophies were substandard ?

you are free to assume what you will dart, i am just saying that if he did know it will never be admitted by celtic football club or anyone that represents them in any way past or present.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

What conclusive proof is going to be given if he did know?

Lets face it no one associated with celtic is going to put there hands up and say yes BJK.

It will be ignored, and will go on to be ignored.

Should we assume then AB that Big Jock kicked Torbetts ass out the door because his trophies were substandard ?

you are free to assume what you will dart, i am just saying that if he did know it will never be admitted by celtic football club or anyone that represents them in any way past or present.

No you are right it wont be - and such a shameful cover up gives rise to those expressing themself in they way do with BJK chants.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

Stein did do something about Torbett - he kicked him out. And it could be argued that that was a reasonable course of action by the standards of the time.

No.

What would have been a reasonable course of action by the standards of the time would have ben to report the crimes to the Police so that the perpetrator could be punished and future victims saved from abuse.

There is/ was only one correct course of action when one comes across child abuse.

And it is not to cover it up and name a Stand after one of those who participated in the cover up.

There's no grey in this one.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

you are free to assume what you will dart, i am just saying that if he did know it will never be admitted by celtic football club or anyone that represents them in any way past or present.

And in a nutshell, that is why others have a duty to highlight it.

[superally07 387]

Just some questions to help push debate forward.

What are chants of BJK hoping to achieve? What are the positives that could come out of the chants? Is there a better way to get the message out? Are there reasons behind the chanting that are not with the best interests of the abused individuals at heart?

1. Speading the word that Child abuse went on at Celtc Park for 25years.

2. Letting everyone know a so called "Legend" Jock Stein covered up Child abuse.

3. No better way than getting a point across than at a football game, esp with Tv coverage etc..

exactly

Plus u cant say it has nothing to do with football

Maddie dosent have anyfin 2 do with football and god knows how many times shes been associated with it

All rangers fans are trying to do - is let the full world know exactly wot kind of a man the so called 'legend' big jock really was.

[dafloppyone 0]

it seems to be more at get it up ye to celtic than any genuine concern about child abuse and if it could happen again

[*Manticore* 1,893]

it seems to be more at get it up ye to celtic than any genuine concern about child abuse and if it could happen again

For me it's not mainly about the abuse though.

It's about the institutional cover up and the fact that a man who is portrayed as a latterday saint participated in it.

They have a stand named after him and only recently were campaigning to have him posthumously knighted.

Surely it is only correct to point out that this man who so many portray as a great hero, and he did have huge successes as a football manager, in fact was complicit in a criminal cover up.

[Guest orangpendek]

from all that i have read about stein, the idea that he would have been complicit in a cover-up of child abuse to protect a football club is not tenable. the idea that he would have given the perp a slap, told him if he sees him again he'll get a damn sight more, and kicked him out of his office seems both consistent with both the man and the mores of the time.

if anyone wants to do something constructive about child abuse, take a degree in social work or volunteer to man the 'childline' phones.

if anyone wants to ensure stein is not given a posthumous knighthood, congrats! you have won, he won't get one. rest easy on that score.

if anyone wants to 'get it up' celtic by chanting BJK, well, i must say it doesn't bother me neither does it surprise me. what does take me slightly aback is that posters here, who must surely have seen plenty of bears who are diddies, expect our support to adopt a sophisticated, educated stance on this issue.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

From all that i have read about stein, the idea that he would have been complicit in a cover-up of child abuse to protect a football club is not tenable. the idea that he would have given the perp a slap, told him if he sees him again he'll get a damn sight more, and kicked him out of his office seems both consistent with both the man and the mores of the time.

And therein lies the problem.

Should we deal with all suspected offenders by merely expressing our revulsion of them by self satisfying violence against them ? Is that not much the same as the lynch mob ?

Furthermore what if they are innocent ? Or is Stein allowed to be judge and jury ?

if he sees him again he'll get a damn sight more

A further problem which in this case came to fruition.

What if Stein is removed from office allowing the perpretator to weasel his way back in and continue with his abuse.

[Guest orangpendek]

no, we shouldn't satisfy our sense of revulsion in that fashion. however, that is the way it would have been dealt with by people brought up in the communities stein grew up in. it is not reasonable to judge the actions of people in the 1960s by the standards of the 90s/00s, where every shelf in john menzies groan under the combined memoirs of abused children, and every news bulletin carries exposure of yet another social work failure. we have moved on (a little bit), but to apply our revised standards regarding this crime retrospectively to people who are dead seems a little pointless.

point 2 is fair enough, except to say i imagine stein would have 'had a word.' this is how these things were done. i mean, we have mike watson setting fire to the curtains and he gets to keep his peerage. likewise jeffrey archer. plenty of enthusiastic paedophiles in the lords over the years. perhaps we ought to focusing on those who have the honour and deserve to be stripped of it, rather than someone who never got and never will be so honoured?

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

I think Dek we need to put to bed the myth that child abusers were dealt with by way of physical beatings....a kind of "summary justice "....in the 60's.

The Chidren and Young Persons (Scotland) Act has been in existence since 1937...though I do accept that since the 60's a far more favourable environment and system of protection has developed.

However this was not a reticence on the part of the victims to report the matter - this was deliberate attempt to cover up systematic abuse by a number of people, including Stein.

However merely sweeping it under the carpet is not acceptable nor is the excuse that "it was another time and another place" - as can be seen from the events in Boston and the scandal involving the Catholic Church - all those complicit in any kind of cover up will be accountable no matter the prevailing attitudes of the day.

[BLUEDIGNITY 34,090]

I think Dek we need to put to bed the myth that child abusers were dealt with by way of physical beatings....a kind of "summary justice "....in the 60's.

The Chidren and Young Persons (Scotland) Act has been in existence since 1937...though I do accept that since the 60's a far more favourable environment and system of protection has developed.

However this was not a reticence on the part of the victims to report the matter - this was deliberate attempt to cover up systematic abuse by a number of people, including Stein.

However merely sweeping it under the carpet is not acceptable nor is the excuse that "it was another time and another place" - as can be seen from the events in Boston and the scandal involving the Catholic Church - all those complicit in any kind of cover up will be accountable no matter the prevailing attitudes of the day.

Exactly D'A and maybe those who took part in the cover up that are alive will be held accountable! This would also open doors for the vic tims to sue celtic football club al a catholic church for the odious crimes committed against them ?

[Ibroxblue 131]

I remember when I was pretty young there was rumoured to be a paedophile about bothering young kids. Now, as far as I know, this was not reported to the police by anyone, even older people who knew about it. What did happen was me and my (tougher) mates were roped into a gang to hunt the guy down. We weren't usually into hunting guys down (though some of us got involved in a few scraps) but it seemed it was justified to protect the wee kids. Fortunately (I can see now) we never caught the guy but this still happens in working-class areas today, let alone in the 60s or 70s. So there's certainly an argument that Stein did what he thought was right by the standards of his background and the time.

There was also a claim in a previous discussion in the Bear's Den that the Celtic board basically blackmailed Stein into doing nothing more than kicking Torbett out (and it's pretty well-known that Stein got up to personal misbehaviour - none of which was illegal though). I have no way of knowing whether this story is true or not but the person who posted it seemed pretty sure of it. So it's unclear what the whole truth of the matter was.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

So there's certainly an argument that Stein did what he thought was right by the standards of his background and the time.

Aye protecting the rep of cfc.

I'm sorry, but this is rubbish, I was alive then, and then as now the correct course of action would have been to report the crimes to the proper authorities, not to administer a beating and leave the perp to carry on the abuse elsewhere.