Lamb to the slaughter

[bauba30 1]

A precedent was set when DF was hounded and found guilty by the media for singing sectarian songs all be it at a private Rangers supporters function. I do not condone DF's actions. When Pearson and Hartson do exactly the same thing surely the media in all fairness should have hounded them with the same gusto.

Was DF supporting terrorism?

Were the Celtic players? Let me tell you, I have sang FOA before at a karaoke night - I certainly wasnt supporting terrorism - some people really need to get a reality check or something.

Bauba....no-one is in the slightest bit concerned about FOA....its the IRA chants that were interspersed in the song.

I accept that - the point I was trying to amke was that just because you sing ro chant something doesnt make you a supporter - the same as when we had 50k Gers fans giving it, Hullo Hullo, they were all practising protestants - they were merely caught up in a situation and singing along. I know I sang BBs loads of times, I still cant explain logically why I sang it but i know I wasnt a practising protestant

Bauba...are you telling me here that if you sing "IRA" it doesn't make you a supporter ?

Especially when you hijack another song to make those chants.

Yeah I am - I can sit here and should Al Queda for an hour straight, doesnt make me a terrorist.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Yeah I am - I can sit here and should Al Queda for an hour straight, doesnt make me a terrorist.

No but go down to your nearest airport....do the same action and see what happens to you.

And that is the crux of the matter....

We have Celtic players representing their club at an official function....and they chose to express their vocal support for a terrorist orgnaisation...they were stupid and got caught.

Compare this with your earlier statement re Findlay...

Just because it wasnt banned in 1999 doesnt mean it was appropriate for a representative of the club to sing it in the public domain

I dont see the difference to be honest.

[bauba30 1]

Yeah I am - I can sit here and should Al Queda for an hour straight, doesnt make me a terrorist.

No but go down to your nearest airport....do the same action and see what happens to you.

And that is the crux of the matter....

We have Celtic players representing their club at an official function....and they chose to express their vocal support for a terrorist orgnaisation...they were stupid and got caught.

Compare this with your earlier statement re Findlay...

Just because it wasnt banned in 1999 doesnt mean it was appropriate for a representative of the club to sing it in the public domain

I dont see the difference to be honest.

The funny thing about this debate is that I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying - the only real differences is that (I have never seen unmistakeable evidence that in the video that that Celtic players trangressed. IMO, they probably did, but I cant tell for certain. And a charge like this, you have to be certain. And that even if they did, we as Rangers fans, shouldn't really care anyway. We should just be glad that our club took the right course of action and dealt with the matter. That Celtic chose to do differently (again, depending on the evidence at hand) that is their problem and we should hold this as a prime example of how we have higher standards and how we are more effective dealing with this touchy subject matter.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Yeah I am - I can sit here and should Al Queda for an hour straight, doesnt make me a terrorist.

No but go down to your nearest airport....do the same action and see what happens to you.

And that is the crux of the matter....

We have Celtic players representing their club at an official function....and they chose to express their vocal support for a terrorist orgnaisation...they were stupid and got caught.

Compare this with your earlier statement re Findlay...

Just because it wasnt banned in 1999 doesnt mean it was appropriate for a representative of the club to sing it in the public domain

I dont see the difference to be honest.

The funny thing about this debate is that I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying - the only real differences is that (I have never seen unmistakeable evidence that in the video that that Celtic players trangressed. IMO, they probably did, but I cant tell for certain. And a charge like this, you have to be certain. And that even if they did, we as Rangers fans, shouldn't really care anyway. We should just be glad that our club took the right course of action and dealt with the matter. That Celtic chose to do differently (again, depending on the evidence at hand) that is their problem and we should hold this as a prime example of how we have higher standards and how we are more effective dealing with this touchy subject matter.

Well thats my problem Bauba...I dont think my club took the right course of action.

I think they displayed utter hypocrisy....the only time it became an issue was when they realised some judas had sold the video to a tabloid.

Had they come out straight after the incident and outlawed TBB...then I wouldn't have had a problem. But they didnt...it was allowed to be sung for 7 years afterwards..until UEFA intervened. Absolute double standards.

So basically they hung out one guy to dry whilst turning their back on 50 000 doing it week in week out. So he was a QC...so what ? We know what we all think of lawyers so why are some trying to argue some moral code here that it was worse for him ?

I have seen both the videos mentioned in this thread...and in my opinion there is no case to argue regarding the contents.

One guy holds his hands up to doing it...gets forced to resign and labelled a bigot forever after.

Another guy denies it....his club try (unsuccessfully) to argue the video has been doctored....and gets off Scot free.

Sorry but it just aint right in my book.

[bauba30 1]

Yeah I am - I can sit here and should Al Queda for an hour straight, doesnt make me a terrorist.

No but go down to your nearest airport....do the same action and see what happens to you.

And that is the crux of the matter....

We have Celtic players representing their club at an official function....and they chose to express their vocal support for a terrorist orgnaisation...they were stupid and got caught.

Compare this with your earlier statement re Findlay...

Just because it wasnt banned in 1999 doesnt mean it was appropriate for a representative of the club to sing it in the public domain

I dont see the difference to be honest.

The funny thing about this debate is that I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying - the only real differences is that (I have never seen unmistakeable evidence that in the video that that Celtic players trangressed. IMO, they probably did, but I cant tell for certain. And a charge like this, you have to be certain. And that even if they did, we as Rangers fans, shouldn't really care anyway. We should just be glad that our club took the right course of action and dealt with the matter. That Celtic chose to do differently (again, depending on the evidence at hand) that is their problem and we should hold this as a prime example of how we have higher standards and how we are more effective dealing with this touchy subject matter.

Well thats my problem Bauba...I dont think my club took the right course of action.

I think they displayed utter hypocrisy....the only time it became an issue was when they realised some judas had sold the video to a tabloid.

Had they come out straight after the incident and outlawed TBB...then I wouldn't have had a problem. But they didnt...it was allowed to be sung for 7 years afterwards..until UEFA intervened. Absolute double standards.

So basically they hung out one guy to dry whilst turning their back on 50 000 doing it week in week out. So he was a QC...so what ? We know what we all think of lawyers so why are some trying to argue some moral code here that it was worse for him ?

I have seen both the videos mentioned in this thread...and in my opinion there is no case to argue regarding the contents.

One guy holds his hands up to doing it...gets forced to resign and labelled a bigot forever after.

Another guy denies it....his club try (unsuccessfully) to argue the video has been doctored....and gets off Scot free.

Sorry but it just aint right in my book.

Again we agree, that Rangers showed amazing double standards - they should have banned BBs right away imo. I think it was worse for DF though, not because he was a QC, but because he was Rangers QC representing us at an event outside the club. I know you disagree and thats cool.

Again we disagree on the levels of proof that the video gives us. I say it is probable that they sang along but it cannot be proven without doubt, whereas you say the opposite.

Lets face it, on these two points we are never going to agree.

I agree though there are inconsitancies, not necessarily just from the press though, but also from both clubs involved

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

The only thing I would add Bauba is regarding the video.

Lets not forget this is not a court case for either of the parties involved....it didnt have to be proved beyond reasonable doubt..... not for an internal discipline matter.

One club applied their judgement to a series of events...and exercised judgement.

The other one denied...tried to undermine the credibility of the footage...and still decided to declare their club reps "not guilty"

I think the attitudes of the 2 clubs is interesting.

One admits the truth and tries to act with honour...end up being hypocritical.

The other lies...weasels it way out of responsibility and ends up getting away with things.

The video of Pearson and Hartson must have been bad...even Nil By Mouth demanded enquiries.

[bauba30 1]

The only thing I would add Bauba is regarding the video.

Lets not forget this is not a court case for either of the parties involved....it didnt have to be proved beyond reasonable doubt..... not for an internal discipline matter.

One club applied their judgement to a series of events...and exercised judgement.

The other one denied...tried to undermine the credibility of the footage...and still decided to declare their club reps "not guilty"

I think the attitudes of the 2 clubs is interesting.

One admits the truth and tries to act with honour...end up being hypocritical.

The other lies...weasels it way out of responsibility and ends up getting away with things.

The video of Pearson and Hartson must have been bad...even Nil By Mouth demanded enquiries.

Yeah, Rangers tried to do the right thing, but never really looked at the big picture

Celtic kinda faffed about - I agree - Ive said all along this is one situation we can hold the high moral ground on

About the 'beyond reasonable doubt issue' I dont know - if you are going to censure an employee or even let them go over an incident, then your case better be air tight. Because nowadays lawsuits are filed at the drop of a hat, wrongful dismissal suits are the papers every day it seems.

Tell me, was there ever a video of the DF affair made public? I know this was in the days before youtube and all. I mean, we all heard many times over what he did but it is something I would liek to see I think

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

I wouldn't say they faffed about Bauba....they deliberately tried to undermine the credibility of the footage.....but were outmanouvered by some tabloid who called in an expert in the field.

Not sure about the You Tube....I saw it elsewhere.

[bauba30 1]

I wouldn't say they faffed about Bauba....they deliberately tried to undermine the credibility of the footage.....but were outmanouvered by some tabloid who called in an expert in the field.

Not sure about the You Tube....I saw it elsewhere.

Exactly, faffed!! :pipeguy:

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

I wouldn't say they faffed about Bauba....they deliberately tried to undermine the credibility of the footage.....but were outmanouvered by some tabloid who called in an expert in the field.

Not sure about the You Tube....I saw it elsewhere.

Exactly, faffed!! :pipeguy:

LOL

Not my interpretation of the word...suggests they clumsily staggered from one thing to another...

When in reality they tried every underhand trick in the book to get away with it.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

LOL

Not my interpretation of the word...suggests they clumsily staggered from one thing to another...

When in reality they tried every underhand trick in the book to get away with it.

Exactly, and they succeeded with the collusion of the media, who tried to ignore it for weeks, maybe months, then ran with sellick's lies.

Level playing field? My arse.

[bauba30 1]

I wouldn't say they faffed about Bauba....they deliberately tried to undermine the credibility of the footage.....but were outmanouvered by some tabloid who called in an expert in the field.

Not sure about the You Tube....I saw it elsewhere.

Exactly, faffed!! :pipeguy:

LOL

Not my interpretation of the word...suggests they clumsily staggered from one thing to another...

When in reality they tried every underhand trick in the book to get away with it.

Yeah, exactly, faffed! lol

I think thats a word that if you asked 20 guys to define it, you would get get 20 different definitions.

Ultimately, they did what they could to protect their guys

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Ultimately, they did what they could to protect their guys

Good or bad ?

[ricardopatrese 0]

Bauba speaks a lot of sense here. Interesting to see you backing down Frankie - I actually find myself having some empathy with your position now - before I just thought you were talking cack. we should never condone what DF did for the simple reason that he was a Senior Management representative of the club and should have known better. For these reasons we kind of forgive the stupidity of Boab and even the Sellick Two. DF has no defence. Although I agree the wee shit that shopped him needs a beating. I am all for loyalty and sticking behind ALL RFC players, fans, employees etc but when they have been caught with the dick in the bacon-slicer (to use and old joke) there can be no defence as it tars the rest of us - and that will not do.

Still maintain my stance that I couldnt GAF what sellick get up to - their mess is their choice how they deal with it. And I don't buy into your media conspiracy theory - I seel you're still propagating that myth on other threads. You need to give that up mate. Maybe you're too young, maybe too naive whatever it is, you should realise that in a small country like Scotland you simply could not sustain a conspiracy like this without it growing serious legs and becoming well-known common knowledge which would ultimately blow those big-fish in their small pond right oot the watter.

[bauba30 1]

LOL

Not my interpretation of the word...suggests they clumsily staggered from one thing to another...

When in reality they tried every underhand trick in the book to get away with it.

Exactly, and they succeeded with the collusion of the media, who tried to ignore it for weeks, maybe months, then ran with sellick's lies.

Level playing field? My arse.

David, come on now - this was just getting to be a polite thread again too.

In reality, throwing accusations like that around is not a good idea. Try telling that to a Cellic fan and the very thought of them in collusion with the media will drive them to hysterics.

[Frankie 505]

Does accepting Celtic have been less than honest mean bauba is a bigot as well? ;)

A more clear cut example is the behaviour of Neil Lennon. No-one can deny what he said on November 2004 and he was rewarded by Celtic with a new contract and the club captaincy. There was also little or no comment from the media.

Around the same time Bob Malcolm signed an autograph disgracefully with FTP and was villified. Rangers dropped him from the first team and fined him 4 weeks wages.

Put together the DF incident, the Pearson incident, the Lennon incident and the Malcolm incident you have 4 very similar examples of crass and unacceptable behaviour from Old Firm employees. Then compare the action taken by the clubs.

Now, consider the media coverage of these issues and say the orginal post with the idea of a problem with media impartiality does't exist. More so when one considers the fact that Rangers actually took action while Celtic didn't. Yet, what issues were blown up and what were brushed under the carpet.

That's the whole point of the initial post and amongst all the arguing and bizarre accusations of bigotry it has been lost.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

For these reasons we kind of forgive the stupidity of Boab and even the Sellick Two.

Nope nope nope nope nope.

Boab - Found guilty by his club who consequently punished him.

The Sellick 2 - Declared not guilty by their club....who tried to undermine the evidence against them.

For whats its worth...I think Boabs crime was far worse than DF's.

[bauba30 1]

Ultimately, they did what they could to protect their guys

Good or bad ?

One persons good is anothers bad. Yeah, you would like to see them take a stance if they thought the video was clear enough - again, if they just wanted to protect their guys at all costs, then that is disappointing.

I will fall short of suggesting collusion with the media though - I just cannot believe that to have any credence whatsover.

[Frankie 505]

Bauba speaks a lot of sense here. Interesting to see you backing down Frankie - I actually find myself having some empathy with your position now - before I just thought you were talking cack. we should never condone what DF did for the simple reason that he was a Senior Management representative of the club and should have known better. For these reasons we kind of forgive the stupidity of Boab and even the Sellick Two. DF has no defence. Although I agree the wee shit that shopped him needs a beating. I am all for loyalty and sticking behind ALL RFC players, fans, employees etc but when they have been caught with the dick in the bacon-slicer (to use and old joke) there can be no defence as it tars the rest of us - and that will not do.

Still maintain my stance that I couldnt GAF what sellick get up to - their mess is their choice how they deal with it. And I don't buy into your media conspiracy theory - I seel you're still propagating that myth on other threads. You need to give that up mate. Maybe you're too young, maybe too naive whatever it is, you should realise that in a small country like Scotland you simply could not sustain a conspiracy like this without it growing serious legs and becoming well-known common knowledge which would ultimately blow those big-fish in their small pond right oot the watter.

I haven't backed down anywhere. Please don't patronise me with the rest of the nonsense you've written.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

LOL

Not my interpretation of the word...suggests they clumsily staggered from one thing to another...

When in reality they tried every underhand trick in the book to get away with it.

Exactly, and they succeeded with the collusion of the media, who tried to ignore it for weeks, maybe months, then ran with sellick's lies.

Level playing field? My arse.

David, come on now - this was just getting to be a polite thread again too.

In reality, throwing accusations like that around is not a good idea. Try telling that to a Cellic fan and the very thought of them in collusion with the media will drive them to hysterics.

What accusations?

It is a fact that the film was available to all Scottish Media outlets and all ignored it until the P&J ran with it and forced their hands.

Sorry if my language offends you. Should I have said 'My Bottom'?

[bauba30 1]

LOL

Not my interpretation of the word...suggests they clumsily staggered from one thing to another...

When in reality they tried every underhand trick in the book to get away with it.

Exactly, and they succeeded with the collusion of the media, who tried to ignore it for weeks, maybe months, then ran with sellick's lies.

Level playing field? My arse.

David, come on now - this was just getting to be a polite thread again too.

In reality, throwing accusations like that around is not a good idea. Try telling that to a Cellic fan and the very thought of them in collusion with the media will drive them to hysterics.

What accusations?

It is a fact that the film was available to all Scottish Media outlets and all ignored it until the P&J ran with it and forced their hands.

Sorry if my language offends you. Should I have said 'My Bottom'?

Never said anything about language David. Your language was fine - was actually trying to be lighthearted and thus not get you in one of your moods but I guess that failed. Jeesh, youre worse than my wife when its that time of the month! Chill man!

You dont think the press never asked because initially there was no story? nobody of any credence took it seriously because of the nature of the video? Then when someone had the nuts to put the story out there, there was a stampede almost.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

Never said anything about language David. Your language was fine - was actually trying to be lighthearted and thus not get you in one of your moods but I guess that failed. Jeesh, youre worse than my wife when its that time of the month! Chill man!

You dont think the press never asked because initially there was no story? nobody of any credence took it seriously because of the nature of the video? Then when someone had the nuts to put the story out there, there was a stampede almost.

Obviously I misinterpreted your comments about politeness bauba.

As for the rest you have to say, if you honestly believe that the equivalent, say Rangers players at a sashbash shouting UVF, surrounded by folk shouting the same, would have been treated in the same way, all I can say is I am touched by your naivety.