Who is most responsible

[flecky1 4]

You must be a bit of a moron flecky1

No one is saying Lloyds have every right to try and get what is owed but it is the way they are conducting their business.

another one, deflecting away from reality

"the way they are conducting themselves"? behave, do you want them to bow at Rangers' feet and say "here, take another 5m interest free, go sign who you want, in fact, see that 31m debt, write it off, you dont have to pay it back."?

i want this debt repaid as soon as possible, for any fan wanting the current repayment scheme to stay place, which is a poxy 1m a year, that is ridiculous, we will never pay it off. pay them back as quick as we can and be done with them, i want nothing more to do with the bank ever again, but i have to agree with them, we should be paying more money back.

before it gets nasty, leave it there

called a moron and wierdo just because i dont want us going into bigger debt!!!

[Muff 245]

David Murray is to blame!

Martin Bain should keep his job for the time being.

[Railcard 2]

Walter's not to blame, but I noticed he's been left out of the poll even though he's spent a lot of money on the likes of Whittaker, Lafferty, Naismith, Velicka etc.

£9m that we could have put to better use maybe?

3 cups 1 league title and a uefa cup final in 2 seasons isn't too bad though

[Barca1972 0]

One giant cluster-fudge all round. Sir David, Walter and Dick are three main culprits. Advocaat for all his spending ( £25 million on his first team and then mis-spending after that, Flo and submitting leagues to Celtic, spending without recouping ) . Walter for some of his ridiculous buys during 9IAR and on his second spell ( Losing the league the year of the UEFA cup final, £4 million on Laff, the Kaunas season costing us £10 million and the £31 million he spent building this side that STILL wasn't enough to beat a £1.3 million group of Romanians and is JUST getting away with it thanks to events across the city ) and of course, the man who sanctioned all of this ridiculous spending, the bold Sir David!!!

Sir David is most at fault, the managers may have mis-spent laughably but HE had the final say. Where's the tenners now Dave? We played our own part, how many of us were crying out about the fact we clearly couldn't sustain the level of spending we enjoyed for almost two decades? I know I didn't! We loved every minute of it not cause of the success for our club or our ambition in Europe.......but simply because we were putting timmy to the sword. We often take our eye off the big picture as long as we are beating Celtic, and I fear we are doing it even right now.

When Walter goes in the summer......what the fuck are we gonna be left with? No youth players and a squad we can't even update, we have this league won so we should spend NOW until the end of the season preparing for the next, playing our younger players, bringing men through the ranks and showing them what it means to be a Ranger. Celtic might not be as bad next season so we have to think hard and start to blood our youth as we are gonna be dependant on it from now on. And I personally am dreading the Champions League next season . We have to start addressing this instead of people protesting the bank who are one of the victims in this mess! Banks are just businesses and only care about the money THEY ARE OWED. Protest the bank if yous want though " aye , its that there banks that eez du problum ".

[Johnny Dangerously 7,563]

I blame Murray. Remember we were in the black at the end of our failed 10 in a row season. Now look were we are. This is his mess.

[Jimenez 1]

You must be a bit of a moron flecky1

No one is saying Lloyds have every right to try and get what is owed but it is the way they are conducting their business.

another one, deflecting away from reality

"the way they are conducting themselves"? behave, do you want them to bow at Rangers' feet and say "here, take another 5m interest free, go sign who you want, in fact, see that 31m debt, write it off, you dont have to pay it back."?

i want this debt repaid as soon as possible, for any fan wanting the current repayment scheme to stay place, which is a poxy 1m a year, that is ridiculous, we will never pay it off. pay them back as quick as we can and be done with them, i want nothing more to do with the bank ever again, but i have to agree with them, we should be paying more money back.

before it gets nasty, leave it there

called a moron and wierdo just because i dont want us going into bigger debt!!!

Massive thanks for confirming what I believe.

I dont want them to do anything with Rangers other than treat us as the same kind of business as any other club. In case you hadn't realized that's not what they are doing.

I want the debt paid as soon as possible too, but not at the expense of years upon years of unnecessary rebuilding you seem happy to take on the chin.

Do me a favour, you are either a) a fucking imbecile b) a windup merchant or c) a scabby T***. Either way, fucking shut up, Yeah.

[flecky1 4]

You must be a bit of a moron flecky1

No one is saying Lloyds have every right to try and get what is owed but it is the way they are conducting their business.

another one, deflecting away from reality

"the way they are conducting themselves"? behave, do you want them to bow at Rangers' feet and say "here, take another 5m interest free, go sign who you want, in fact, see that 31m debt, write it off, you dont have to pay it back."?

i want this debt repaid as soon as possible, for any fan wanting the current repayment scheme to stay place, which is a poxy 1m a year, that is ridiculous, we will never pay it off. pay them back as quick as we can and be done with them, i want nothing more to do with the bank ever again, but i have to agree with them, we should be paying more money back.

before it gets nasty, leave it there

called a moron and wierdo just because i dont want us going into bigger debt!!!

Massive thanks for confirming what I believe.

I dont want them to do anything with Rangers other than treat us as the same kind of business as any other club. In case you hadn't realized that's not what they are doing.

I want the debt paid as soon as possible too, but not at the expense of years upon years of unnecessary rebuilding you seem happy to take on the chin.

Do me a favour, you are either a) a fucking imbecile b) a windup merchant or c) a scabby T***. Either way, fucking shut up, Yeah.

it can be done quicker and better than years and years of painfull rebuilding ffs, to think otherwise shows a severe lack of trust in the clubs ability to do better

yer fighting a losing battle, good luck with yer protest against the wrong people! :pierre:

its embarrassing, totally embarrassing

Murrays Puppets

[Allanger 625]

Murray in the main but the whole board have been intransigent yet seem to have slipped under the radar. Not one of the current directors should be anywhere near our club

[Jimenez 1]

it can be done quicker and better than years and years of painfull rebuilding ffs, to think otherwise shows a severe lack of trust in the clubs ability to do better

yer fighting a losing battle, good luck with yer protest against the wrong people! :pierre:

its embarrassing, totally embarrassing

Murrays Puppets

I'm a Murray puppet now ?

You are so far out the realms of parody its beyond the pale. That you still advocate that Murray should be held accountable for the way they are dealing with his mess proves you are a fucking idiot.

If you are too fucking thick to draw a line underneath Murray's previous mismanagement and Muir's systematic dismantling of Rangers then so be it.

[mortos 8]

What was the result of the '9iar was it worth it' poll?

just wondering if we want to have our cake and eat it. depends of course how far back you think the problem goes.

if you think the problems are recent then it maybe just re-emphasises that one season out of Europe and your in big trouble (ala septic next year )

PCs a bit sluggish and i can't see a quick way to find it.

[docspiderman 1,260]

Pointless protesting against the bank who as far as evidence suggests are working fairly with the club and are unable to comment about club affairs.

Any protests should be about the complete lack of information from the directors of the club and especially the absentee chairman whose appointment was a classic SDM piece of evasion; appoint a guy who is rarely in the country to be the figurehead and mouthpiece of the club !

[marka198 3]

I think the protest is wrong

Fans are protesting against the wrong people

You should not spend what you dont have

You surely have to pay back any money you borrow from anyone

Right now, these claims against the bank cannot be proven

the bottom line is the bank want there money back asap ,imagine your mortgage company asking you to repay tmw . second sdm has so badly run rangers for the last 10 years its left the club in this mess while he f**ks off to sort out his own businesses ie murray int . so donald muir has a free reign .

[docspiderman 1,260]

I think the protest is wrong

Fans are protesting against the wrong people

You should not spend what you dont have

You surely have to pay back any money you borrow from anyone

Right now, these claims against the bank cannot be proven

the bottom line is the bank want there money back asap ,imagine your mortgage company asking you to repay tmw . second sdm has so badly run rangers for the last 10 years its left the club in this mess while he f**ks off to sort out his own businesses ie murray int . so donald muir has a free reign .

Do they? why have they agreed to a long term repayment plan and a continuation of our agreed overdraft?

I do not think the speculation,unfounded rumours and scaremongering is helpful or productive; not aiming this specifically at you,Marka.

[cooper1989 0]

Ah wtf.. might as well blame everyone. Murray for having more ambition than sense.. but we loved it eh? So blame the fans as well. Have to blame Bain for some of the dodgy transfer dealings -- and Wattie too for some terrible buys. But he made us a few quid as well off of Cuellar etc.

Anyway, the truth is probably somewhere in between all the rants about how bad the Bank is treating us -- which of course, I'd be amazed if anyone on here knows anything about -- and the probability that there is a bona-fide agreement in place that allows us to get back on our feet in due time.

The assumption that has to be made by all is that no new owner is coming in. Therefore, the current situation has to be dealt with. Full stop. The money needs to be repaid and we will only remain viable if we:

Cut our expenses,

Increase our revenues. (CL progression is the obvious one here... )

Investment is not an option.

So, as far as protests v Lloyds, changing your bank accounts etc.. it has to be the most ridiculous crap I've ever heard. Not only is the protest against the wrong people.. it just shows to the world that those who are protesting don't have a clue. (Let's just hope the world at large doesn't think all of us Bears are that daft?)

And of course, we will win this league -- and the treble.

[flecky1 4]

it can be done quicker and better than years and years of painfull rebuilding ffs, to think otherwise shows a severe lack of trust in the clubs ability to do better

yer fighting a losing battle, good luck with yer protest against the wrong people! :pierre:

its embarrassing, totally embarrassing

Murrays Puppets

I'm a Murray puppet now ?

You are so far out the realms of parody its beyond the pale. That you still advocate that Murray should be held accountable for the way they are dealing with his mess proves you are a fucking idiot.

If you are too fucking thick to draw a line underneath Murray's previous mismanagement and Muir's systematic dismantling of Rangers then so be it.

ive clearly hit a nerve and your now flappin', resorted to name calling and not for the first time, says alot about a boy so it does.

draw a line under his management? aye the very management who are to blame for this pathetic situation, but hey, you keep protesting against the very people who helped us in our hour of need!!!

keep diggin back, your a good laugh!

[flecky1 4]

I think the protest is wrong

Fans are protesting against the wrong people

You should not spend what you dont have

You surely have to pay back any money you borrow from anyone

Right now, these claims against the bank cannot be proven

the bottom line is the bank want there money back asap ,imagine your mortgage company asking you to repay tmw . second sdm has so badly run rangers for the last 10 years its left the club in this mess while he f**ks off to sort out his own businesses ie murray int . so donald muir has a free reign .

but do they? says who? wheres the proof they are demanding 31m RIGHT NOW?

i totally agree with your assessment of Murray, some other fans are still under his grip

Donald Muir is to be commended for getting Murray out and at least trying to sack Bain.

And if his plan is to get that 31m back asap, then i support him. As long as he doesnt think he can sell our property assets, players can be replaced easily enough, Auchenhowie and Ibrox cannot.

[viennabear 2]

this is going to sound bonkers but I was talking to a guy who knows his stuff when it comes to financial markets etc. and though he doesnt know anything about the Rangers situation he said if looked at from a business perspective things are not as "bad" as we may think when it comes to the future of rangers! Obviously might be completley wrong due to a number of assumptions but he persumes that Rangers are owned not by Murray but by MIH and this is what is causing the current problems. Rangers as a standalone company would have no difficulties from the bank due to a 31m debt as Rangers assets i.e. Stadium , players , Murray Park etc would more than cover the debt and as long as Rangers are servicing their debt by paying their installments their would be no reason for the bank to get involved as a standalone rangers would easily pass the Banking Covenants (example Liverpool 300 odd million in debt and still passed its Banking Covenant + we were ourselves only a few years ago over 50m in debt and the banks werent really bothered) . The most likely reason that the bank is involved is that MIH is not currently in a position to service their debt/their commercial property portfolio has taken a heavy beating in the Credit Crunch and the depreciation in value of MIH assets has put it in a position that it can not currently pass the Banking Covenants required by the Bank. Their are however positives to be taken from this - Llyods are currently only involved in MIH and Rangers with a view to reducing costs and it must be seen as a positive that their has been no news of Lloyds forcing MIH to sell any of it´s property portfolio at massive losses to pay off any of its debts. The reason for this is that the bank knows itself that Markets will rebound to higher levels than before and MIH will again be in a very healthy state and they can step back out again however they have to get involved at the moment as doing nothing would be seen as "risky banking". This is also persumably the reason the bank wont budge on the debt - they would only have reason to reduce the debt for new owners if they could not recover the money by selling Rangers assets.

The positive to be taken from this is that the property market rebound is expected in late 2010 early 2011 therefore we only need to get through the next transfer window intact and then as long as markets do their stuff the bank will be gone! Murray would still be here though and I seriously think we have yet to see the last of him .. similar to the last time he is getting himself out of the direct firing line so that someone else has to answer the questions and once everything settles down he will be back ...

this might be all a load of gibberish so apologies if someone knows more about the ins and outs and can explain it all to be nonsence

[Jimenez 1]

ive clearly hit a nerve and your now flappin', resorted to name calling and not for the first time, says alot about a boy so it does.

draw a line under his management? aye the very management who are to blame for this pathetic situation, but hey, you keep protesting against the very people who helped us in our hour of need!!!

keep diggin back, your a good laugh!

Bravo, the little boy has had his dinner and came back to reply.

I've resorted top name calling 'cos you done likewise against other posters on the board, aye you intentionally fucking retarded ? serious question btw

Can you wake up even slightly enough to realize that the situation and subsequent actions now has nothing to do with SDM, we are in the position we are in.

I've never been a Murrayite, never!

In fact I had been saying he was a cancer on our club for years.

But I'm able to differentiate between past and present.

As i said. You are either a clown, a WUM or a slimy T***.

Either way, you are beyond debate.

[Allanger 625]

ive clearly hit a nerve and your now flappin', resorted to name calling and not for the first time, says alot about a boy so it does.

draw a line under his management? aye the very management who are to blame for this pathetic situation, but hey, you keep protesting against the very people who helped us in our hour of need!!!

keep diggin back, your a good laugh!

Bravo, the little boy has had his dinner and came back to reply.

I've resorted top name calling 'cos you done likewise against other posters on the board, aye you intentionally fucking retarded ? serious question btw

Can you wake up even slightly enough to realize that the situation and subsequent actions now has nothing to do with SDM, we are in the position we are in.

I've never been a Murrayite, never!

In fact I had been saying he was a cancer on our club for years.

But I'm able to differentiate between past and present.

As i said. You are either a clown, a WUM or a slimy T***.

Either way, you are beyond debate.

Whats a WUM?

[Jimenez 1]

Whats a WUM?

wind up merchant

[Allanger 625]

Whats a WUM?

wind up merchant

Cheers. Noted for future use

[flecky1 4]

ive clearly hit a nerve and your now flappin', resorted to name calling and not for the first time, says alot about a boy so it does.

draw a line under his management? aye the very management who are to blame for this pathetic situation, but hey, you keep protesting against the very people who helped us in our hour of need!!!

keep diggin back, your a good laugh!

Bravo, the little boy has had his dinner and came back to reply.

I've resorted top name calling 'cos you done likewise against other posters on the board, aye you intentionally fucking retarded ? serious question btw

Can you wake up even slightly enough to realize that the situation and subsequent actions now has nothing to do with SDM, we are in the position we are in.

I've never been a Murrayite, never!

In fact I had been saying he was a cancer on our club for years.

But I'm able to differentiate between past and present.

As i said. You are either a clown, a WUM or a slimy T***.

Either way, you are beyond debate.

pathetic

i do the cooking in my house, you got a problem with that homophobe?

who was i name calling previously on this board?

so where was yer protests when ye were calling murray a cancer on our club? (ridiculous desperate thing to say anyway)

your deluded if you think murray has nothing to do with this, he is the number 1 culprit, past and present

still no facts or direct quotes yet to support yer sham of a protest? tut tut

[Jimenez 1]

Sweet Jebus, we are defensive aren't we flecky1 ? You called Iniesta a fan dan on another thread no ? Even if I'm wrong your constant condescending posts accompanied with shit smilies have earmarked you as a cum rag of the highest order.

As for protests against Murray.... i turned up at a couple of protests and was involved in one or two banners aimed at him.

More importantly, what the fuck did you do ? You seem so clear and concise on whose to blame....

Again trying to insinuate that I believe Murray has nothing to do with it... He's the reason we are here, but we are here and the people that have taking the reigns are running us in a shoddy manner. |Our debt for a club our size isn't that disproportionate yet we are being run differently from all other clubs.

If you think bitching about Murray now will help anything you are a fucking spoon.

As for my 'Murray is a cancer' comment. I've been proved right. He has his knighthood now though and as a non Rangers man nevermind football man I'm sure he couldn't give a fuck.

But ta for the sympathetic contradiction.

[wearrapeepul 0]

first post, ok here goes [cross fingers deep breath] surely sdm is to blame for the fiasco we have been in , he was /is the egomaniac who has brought us to this level he was the one who stood on his high horse and proclaimed he was king /guvenor and that his club [not ours] would be run by one man [guess who?] now he scamppers away like all the so called self proclaimed martyrs that have blighted history never to be seen again,just how did he get away with it? deflection ,deception ,lies and untruths and this in his last year . pie in the sky ideas .the truth rules and we the rangers support will no doubt pick up the pieces off murrays debt ridden table .

[flecky1 4]

Sweet Jebus, we are defensive aren't we flecky1 ? You called Iniesta a fan dan on another thread no ? Even if I'm wrong your constant condescending posts accompanied with shit smilies have earmarked you as a cum rag of the highest order.

As for protests against Murray.... i turned up at a couple of protests and was involved in one or two banners aimed at him.

More importantly, what the fuck did you do ? You seem so clear and concise on whose to blame....

Again trying to insinuate that I believe Murray has nothing to do with it... He's the reason we are here, but we are here and the people that have taking the reigns are running us in a shoddy manner. |Our debt for a club our size isn't that disproportionate yet we are being run differently from all other clubs.

If you think bitching about Murray now will help anything you are a fucking spoon.

As for my 'Murray is a cancer' comment. I've been proved right. He has his knighthood now though and as a non Rangers man nevermind football man I'm sure he couldn't give a fuck.

But ta for the sympathetic contradiction.

no, no i never!!!

"turned up", 1 or 2 banners, magic, eh!

ive been shouting about how bad he was for us for years, ive only been on fansites for a few years, they didnt like the negativity either, i was told i was being far too negative and to stop going about it everything will be alright, well look how that turned out!!!

ive wrote several 5/6 page letters to the club over a number of years asking questions only to be ignored, after being ignored twice, i wrote again, not 1 acknowledgement.

ive been on the phone i dont know how many times to the club demanding answers, only to be fobbed off with bullshit and "i dont knows".

i dont hang about in gangs shouting crap or stand in picket lines, i do not protest for the world to see me making an arse of myself, i was one of very few who stood by Le Guen instead of the crab and the disgracefully discharged ex-chairman, i got no support for that.

my decision was simple, i withdrew my cash, and now i dont give Murrays Rangers 1 pence, and i wont till he is gone along with his other puppet Bain. They were bad for Rangers then and they are still bad for us, i cannot buy into something i do not believe is right, but i will always support and love the Rangers. They are my team and this is my club you are going to embarrass with your protest.

shoddy manner? its no worse than what Murray was doing, at least now we are not pissing millions up against a brick wall on shite players, were paying back money that man borrowed to the people who gave him it in the first place.

your qoute "Our debt for a club our size isn't that disproportionate yet we are being run differently from all other clubs", are you saying there is an agenda against Rangers from the top brass at Lloyds?

im a spoon now, thats slimy T***, wum, idiot, fucking thick, spastic, retard, little boy, clown all because i wont support your protest

cheers