The rst

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Alba...

Just a few stats on this one...

A recent survey by the National Centre for Social Research showed 81% of Scots in favour of ending separate Catholic education with only 13% in favour of retaining it.

A Guardian/ICM poll published today shows that most respondents are against ministers' plans to increase the number of religious schools amid growing anxiety about their impact on social cohesion. The survey reveals that following last month's terror attacks, the majority of the public are uneasy about the proposals, with 64% agreeing that "the government should not be funding faith schools of any kind".

SEGREGATED Catholic education is 'divisive' and 'enables sectarianism', according to the Bishop of Motherwell, Joseph Devine, who is president of the Church's education committee. 'Denominational education is an enabler of sectarianism. Roman Catholic schooling is divisive,' says Devine. (22 September 2002)

In 1992, 47% of Catholics were in favour of phasing out separate schools (source: Scottish Election Survey) and in 2001, this number had risen to 59% (source: Scottish Social Attitudes Survey

"Faith schools breed segregation", October 2005

96% of respondents to BBC Radio 4's Sunday programme on-line poll think that "faith schools breed segregation".

An Omnibus Survey by Millward Brown Ulster, showed that 81% of people in Northern Ireland believed that Integrated Education is important to the peace and reconciliation process in Northern Ireland.

A poll, conducted by the National Centre for Social Research, has shocked many of Scotland’s educationists and Church leaders. It showed a rise of 6 per cent to 81 per cent from a decade ago, when three quarters of those polled wanted the schools abolished.

[Albahighlander 0]

Alba...

Just a few stats on this one...

A recent survey by the National Centre for Social Research showed 81% of Scots in favour of ending separate Catholic education with only 13% in favour of retaining it.

A Guardian/ICM poll published today shows that most respondents are against ministers' plans to increase the number of religious schools amid growing anxiety about their impact on social cohesion. The survey reveals that following last month's terror attacks, the majority of the public are uneasy about the proposals, with 64% agreeing that "the government should not be funding faith schools of any kind".

SEGREGATED Catholic education is 'divisive' and 'enables sectarianism', according to the Bishop of Motherwell, Joseph Devine, who is president of the Church's education committee. 'Denominational education is an enabler of sectarianism. Roman Catholic schooling is divisive,' says Devine. (22 September 2002)

In 1992, 47% of Catholics were in favour of phasing out separate schools (source: Scottish Election Survey) and in 2001, this number had risen to 59% (source: Scottish Social Attitudes Survey

"Faith schools breed segregation", October 2005

96% of respondents to BBC Radio 4's Sunday programme on-line poll think that "faith schools breed segregation".

An Omnibus Survey by Millward Brown Ulster, showed that 81% of people in Northern Ireland believed that Integrated Education is important to the peace and reconciliation process in Northern Ireland.

A poll, conducted by the National Centre for Social Research, has shocked many of Scotland’s educationists and Church leaders. It showed a rise of 6 per cent to 81 per cent from a decade ago, when three quarters of those polled wanted the schools abolished.

d'aRTAGNAN, Just heading out to one of those 'divisive' schools in Bishop's devine parish :Animation44: so not got time to get into the post properly but that one I put in bold stands out, I think there must be a context to that statement because there is no bigger advocate of Roman Catholic schools than Bishop Devine so I am really struggling to follow that one.

Later

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Yes...

To be honest I thought the Northern Ireland one was the most significant one anyway.

[Frankie 505]

FAO interested parties:

RST report into security arrangements at Pamplona was featured in last night's Evening Times again.

Club didn't comment other than to say they have received said report and are investigating...

[*Manticore* 1,893]

FAO interested parties:

RST report into security arrangements at Pamplona was featured in last night's Evening Times again.

Club didn't comment other than to say they have received said report and are investigating...

I've read it, good work.

I have to say I got off lightly, by travelling independently, getting to the ground right early and leaving early.

It was shocking to hear about the other stuff.

Having said that I got off lightly it was still the most frightening football experience of my life.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

d'aRTAGNAN, Just heading out to one of those 'divisive' schools in Bishop's devine parish Animation44.gif so not got time to get into the post properly but that one I put in bold stands out, I think there must be a context to that statement because there is no bigger advocate of Roman Catholic schools than Bishop Devine so I am really struggling to follow that one.

Later

Here you go Alba

[*Manticore* 1,893]

d'aRTAGNAN, Just heading out to one of those 'divisive' schools in Bishop's devine parish Animation44.gif so not got time to get into the post properly but that one I put in bold stands out, I think there must be a context to that statement because there is no bigger advocate of Roman Catholic schools than Bishop Devine so I am really struggling to follow that one.

Later

Here you go Alba

Roman Catholic schooling is divisive – but sometimes it is a price worth paying.

That sectarianism is OK then, but my god, a song at a football match, that'll split society.

[bauba30 1]

d'aRTAGNAN, Just heading out to one of those 'divisive' schools in Bishop's devine parish Animation44.gif so not got time to get into the post properly but that one I put in bold stands out, I think there must be a context to that statement because there is no bigger advocate of Roman Catholic schools than Bishop Devine so I am really struggling to follow that one.

Later

Here you go Alba

Ok, for what it is worth, I am not in favor of integrated schooling. If a parent wishes to send their kids to a faith school then fair dues, it's their money

What I really dont agree with is that faith schooling causes sectarianism or at the least divisions. I mean, fair enough if the kids are being taught that protestants where the devil but (I hope) I dont think they are.

The 81 per cent figure for N Ireland interested me. I wonder what is is about faith schooling that scares or bothers protestants that much? In my mind, if a protestant is comfortable with their own faith then does it matter that much anyway?

I would rather that we just taught our kids some diversity, whether it be in faith schools or otherwise. Teach them that we are all different, that some believe in A, others believe in B, and that we should celebrate our differences, not fight over them.

And so forth.

Other parts of the world have caught on to that ideal, some more slowly than others but still, progress has been made. See no reason why with the right leadership that the west of Scotland could not do the same

[*Manticore* 1,893]

Other parts of the world have caught on to that ideal, some more slowly than others but still, progress has been made. See no reason why with the right leadership that the west of Scotland could not do the same

What parts of the world do you have in mind?

In what way are their education systems similar to the Scottish one?

[bauba30 1]

Other parts of the world have caught on to that ideal, some more slowly than others but still, progress has been made. See no reason why with the right leadership that the west of Scotland could not do the same

What parts of the world do you have in mind?

In what way are their education systems similar to the Scottish one?

David, think you misunderstood me a little, think you are heading in a slightly different direction

When i said that, I was referring to earlier in my post when I said this "I would rather that we just taught our kids some diversity, whether it be in faith schools or otherwise. Teach them that we are all different, that some believe in A, others believe in B, and that we should celebrate our differences, not fight over them"

I was thinking of other areas where differences have been set aside, like race differences in the states, sex rights in muslim countries etc etc. Actually in large parts of southern US there is more religious understanding now of different denominations also. I think you were focussing on the religious side there right?

With regards to race, there are still to this day large sections of the inner cities that are all or nearly all african american populated. The schools in those areas are populated with all or nearly all african american kids. But as they are told to embrace their own culture and heritage, they are also taught to understand and embrace other cultures also and thus as the kids of the 80s became adults in the 90s and the kids of the 90s became adults in the 21st century, the situation slowly improved. Nowhere near perfect yet, and probably never will be, but the improvement in understanding and tolerance has been marked over the last 20 years

I think we can learn from that David. I dont think we can do anything that can make it disappear overnight, but it needs to be through teaching understanding and tolerance over a generation that will ultimately lead to the improvement that most of us want to see.

The alternative, forcing Catholics, or other faiths who school by their faith, into regular mixed faith schooling I just dont see doing anything more than adding resentment, in essence, just pouring fuel on the fire.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

OK Bauba, I just get frustrated whan folk trot out the fact that other countries have faith schools means that in Scotland they don't contribute to sectarianism.

I often ask where there is a similar education system to Scotland, and nobody answers so imo that cliche is not a contribution to the debate, it is an attempt to prevent a full debate.

For me in Scotland they are bigot factories and the biggest factor in the sectarianism.

Recognising that is one thing, what to do about it is another.

Did you arrange for me to meet Annie yet?

[bauba30 1]

OK Bauba, I just get frustrated whan folk trot out the fact that other countries have faith schools means that in Scotland they don't contribute to sectarianism.

I often ask where there is a similar education system to Scotland, and nobody answers so imo that cliche is not a contribution to the debate, it is an attempt to prevent a full debate.

For me in Scotland they are bigot factories and the biggest factor in the sectarianism.

Recognising that is one thing, what to do about it is another.

Did you arrange for me to meet Annie yet?

Well I asked - but apparently she is a member on here and unfortunately, she knows of you already. Tough luck Dave!

lol

Yeah, as you said, I wasnt going down that route - I think a better parallel is to talk of the race situation in the States. its all bigotry through ignorance really

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Its the whole action of division...segregation..separation bauba....of society saying to children you are different from him from her...and let me underline now...its about any faith school...Muslim/Jew/Catholic/Protestant.

Of course its divisive...children are being separated from their friends..often a traumatic experience...and find themself in a new environment with strangers....much of the time to satisfy a parents token desire...for something they dont even practise themselves. By segregating children on the grounds of religions you polarise communities and alienate them from the youth of other faiths

Any spirit of community that defines the community along exclusive lines (i.e. the membership of a religion) actually excludes from this community spirit those pupils whom are not believers in the faith of the school.

If a parent wishes to send their kids to a faith school then fair dues, it's their money

And therein lies the root of the problem - its not their money..its money set aside for education which could be far better spent improving existing bulidings and employing more teachers rather than build new buildings purely to promote some particular church.

[bauba30 1]

Its the whole action of division...segregation..separation bauba....of society saying to children you are different from him from her...and let me underline now...its about any faith school...Muslim/Jew/Catholic/Protestant.

***I accept your belief DA, though I think we are categorized and seperated as people our entire lives. This is why I advocate the teaching of diversity/tolerance class in all school, not only faith ones.****

Of course its divisive...children are being separated from their friends..often a traumatic experience...and find themself in a new environment with strangers....much of the time to satisfy a parents token desire...for something they dont even practise themselves. By segregating children on the grounds of religions you polarise communities and alienate them from the youth of other faiths

****How does this work? Dont kids spend their entire schooling in those schools or do they switch at 12? I laugh at the suggestion that parents make kids do what they dont want to do. Isnt that was parenting is? lol. Thats the way it seemed to me growing up. I didnt want to go to church or sunday school, all my mates were playing footy. And I didnt want to wear cords dammit!****

Any spirit of community that defines the community along exclusive lines (i.e. the membership of a religion) actually excludes from this community spirit those pupils whom are not believers in the faith of the school.

****Again, if diversity/tolerance was part of a national cirriculum?***

If a parent wishes to send their kids to a faith school then fair dues, it's their money

And therein lies the root of the problem - its not their money..its money set aside for education which could be far better spent improving existing bulidings and employing more teachers rather than build new buildings purely to promote some particular church.

***Think you missed me on this one. Its personal choice. If you take away choice then you eat away at democracy to a degree. I really think that if we decide to lump all the kids together in one school system then we have lost as a society. It means that we are unable to work out how to co-exist with all of our differences. I dont like that ending. Would much rather we look the situation in the face and say, we are different and that is ok. Preach tolerance to our kids in faith schools and all other schools and I think that over a generation this prob will gradually get better.

Take away the choice however and force those families to send their kids to regular schools will, imo, only stir up resentment between the two communities. I really cannot see Catholic, Muslim or jewish families being too happy to give that up without a strong struggle and in my opinion we do not need that right now.

[Albahighlander 0]

The financial argument is the weakest argument agaainst denominational schools.

Catholic parents are also taxpayers (yep some of them are believe it or not), Thereforfe essentially it is their taxes that go towards their denominational schools.

Education costs are per head and so there would be no saving if there was not denominational schools.

Denominational schools calculated on a per head basis are no more expensive to run than a non denominational.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

If you take away choice then you eat away at democracy

How can that be eating away at democracy ?

The only thing which is eating away at democracy is that an overwhelming majority of people want them abolished...and yet they continue to exist.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

The financial argument is the weakest argument agaainst denominational schools.

Catholic parents are also taxpayers (yep some of them are believe it or not), Thereforfe essentially it is their taxes that go towards their denominational schools.

Education costs are per head and so there would be no saving if there was not denominational schools.

Denominational schools calculated on a per head basis are no more expensive to run than a non denominational.

I disagree Alba....surely 2 schools are more expensive to run than one.

[bauba30 1]

If you take away choice then you eat away at democracy

How can that be eating away at democracy ?

The only thing which is eating away at democracy is that an overwhelming majority of people want them abolished...and yet they continue to exist.

Ok, say protestants are 65 per cent of the population. Should they determine what type of education catholics, muslims and Jews get? Of course not.

Everybody should be entitled to the schooling that they want. Whatever that is.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

If you take away choice then you eat away at democracy

How can that be eating away at democracy ?

The only thing which is eating away at democracy is that an overwhelming majority of people want them abolished...and yet they continue to exist.

Ok, say protestants are 65 per cent of the population. Should they determine what type of education catholics, muslims and Jews get? Of course not.

Everybody should be entitled to the schooling that they want. Whatever that is.

But they dont.....thats the point of non denominational schools...

[bauba30 1]

If you take away choice then you eat away at democracy

How can that be eating away at democracy ?

The only thing which is eating away at democracy is that an overwhelming majority of people want them abolished...and yet they continue to exist.

Ok, say protestants are 65 per cent of the population. Should they determine what type of education catholics, muslims and Jews get? Of course not.

Everybody should be entitled to the schooling that they want. Whatever that is.

But they dont.....thats the point of non denominational schools...

Dont the families choose to put their kids there?

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

In theory - yes

In practice - not always

Furthermore the non denominational...as their name suggests...are not promoting any particular religion...that what I would advocate for all children.

[Albahighlander 0]

The financial argument is the weakest argument agaainst denominational schools.

Catholic parents are also taxpayers (yep some of them are believe it or not), Thereforfe essentially it is their taxes that go towards their denominational schools.

Education costs are per head and so there would be no saving if there was not denominational schools.

Denominational schools calculated on a per head basis are no more expensive to run than a non denominational.

I disagree Alba....surely 2 schools are more expensive to run than one.

You would still need 2 schools .

Take Demoniational school A - school roll 1200

Take neighbouring Non denominational school B - school roll 1200

Where would the kids from school A go if it closed ? Couldn't go to school B it would be too large.

So you would need another non denominational school.

You don't save any money.

Local Authority for example needs 24 schools to cover its school population

From a financial point of view it makes no difference whether they are 24 non denominational or 16 non denominational and 8 denominational.

It is quite simply , a false argument

[bauba30 1]

In theory - yes

In practice - not always

Furthermore the non denominational...as their name suggests...are not promoting any particular religion...that what I would advocate for all children.

Thats the bummer, you are not everyones parent. Unless the rumors are true..... :Animation44:

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

I accept that Alba...what I am talking about is the building of 2 schools...one denom...one non denom...which has happened recently where I live.

There was significant anger at the extra cost involved.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

In theory - yes

In practice - not always

Furthermore the non denominational...as their name suggests...are not promoting any particular religion...that what I would advocate for all children.

Thats the bummer, you are not everyones parent. Unless the rumors are true..... :Animation44:

So Bauba...do you think its morally right...that a questionable institution like the Catholic Church is allowed to promote itself so openly within the education system ?